This week on The Digital Download, we're delving into the power of intuition in career decision-making with Jessica Pryce-Jones, Executive Coach, Facilitator, and Author. With a background in finance and psychology, Jessica has unique insights into how professionals can leverage their intuition to navigate their careers.

Join us as we discuss questions like:

• What exactly is intuition, and how does it differ from logic or reason?

• How can professionals identify and interpret their intuitive signals in a career context?

• Are there specific situations where intuition is particularly valuable or, conversely, where it might lead us astray?

• How can we develop and strengthen our intuition over time?

• Can intuition be a reliable guide in making major career decisions, such as changing jobs or industries?

Jessica's blend of corporate experience and psychological expertise provides a unique perspective on the often-overlooked role of intuition in career success. As she notes in her profile, she believes in using "hard, soft, and intuitive information" to get to the heart of complex professional issues.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!  

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• Jessica Pryce-Jones, Executive Coach, Facilitator, and Author of Intuition At Work, Using your gut feelings to get ahead.

This week's Host was -

• Bertrand Godillot, Founder and Managing Partner of Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of DLA Ignite,

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

• Tracy Borreson, Founder and CEO of TLB Coaching & Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite

• Richard Jones, Director of Qure 8 Ltd, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Transcript of The Digital Download 2025-02-28

Bertrand Godillot [00:00:02]:

Oops. Good afternoon, good morning, and good day wherever you may be joining us from, and welcome to a new edition of the digital download, the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn live, now globally syndicated on IBGR through oh, sorry. On TuneIn Radio, sorry, through IBGR, the world's number one business talk, news, and strategy radio network. Today, we're delving into the power of intuition in career decision making with Jessica Price Jones, executive coach, facilitator, and author. With a background in finance and psychology, Jessica has unique insights into a profession into how professionals can leverage their intuition to navigate their careers. But before we bring Jessica on, let's go around the set and introduce everyone. While we're doing this, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend, ping them, and have them join us? We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience, and audience participation is highly encouraged.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:24]:

Tim, why don't you kick us off?

Tim Hughes [00:01:27]:

Thank you. Welcome, everybody. My name is Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO and cofounder of DLA Knight. And, look really looking forward to, talking to to Jess today. I'm famous for writing the book, Social Selling Techniques to Influence Bias and Changemakers, and I'm gonna get Jessica's plug in now before she starts, which is that Jessica has read the written the book Intuition at Work, Using Your Gut Feelings to Get Ahead, which is available on Amazon and good bookstores.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:59]:

Excellent.

Adam Gray [00:01:59]:

Perfect. Adam. Hi, everybody. I'm Adam Gray. I'm cofounder of DLA Ignite and Tim's business partner. And, yeah, this is this is a fascinating topic and one that seems blindingly obvious. It will be really interesting to see whether, you know, things that are foolproof are in fact, I I could be a big fool. So let's let's wait and see how this unfolds.

Adam Gray [00:02:25]:

I'm looking forward to it enormously. Excellent.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:29]:

Thanks. Richard?

Richard Jones [00:02:30]:

Oh, good afternoon. Yeah. Richard Jones from Curate. I'm a relative newbie to, the whole world of social selling. But what I can say is throughout my career, I've always followed my gut. And, quite often, it doesn't necessarily, usually I'm right. Put it that way. It doesn't necessarily mean that I end up with the best outcome, but I do generally feel that my gut takes me in the right direction.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:58]:

Looking forward to, to to that discussion. And myself, Bertrand Godillot, I am the managing partner and founder of Odysseus & Co, a very proud DLA Ignite partner.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:03:13]:

As I

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:14]:

said, this week on the digital download, we'll speak with Jessica. Jessica's blend of corporate experience and psychological expertise provides a unique perspective on the often overlooked role of intuition in career success. As she notes in her profile, she believes in using hard, soft, and intuitive information to get to the heart of complex professional issues. Let's bring Jessica on. Welcome.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:03:47]:

Oh, thank you. I did not sure that I deserve all those accolades, but, I'm I'm feeling very flattered.

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:53]:

Of course, you do. Of course, you do. Well, I'm using that because, Jesse Jessica lives in France, So I'll take that opportunity. We do have that every single day. Excellent. So good afternoon and welcome, Jessica. Jessica, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you to where you are today.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:04:21]:

So I started with a degree in Latin and Greek, and, and then I did a teacher training. And and I knew on day one that I'd made a mistake in doing the teacher training in the school that I was in. That was the first hint that I got, okay, I've made a poor choice here. And I made a second very poor choice in my career and I went to work in financial services and, you know, it was one of those very prestigious organizations, Marble Steps, Marble Hall. And even as I walked in, I thought, what am I doing here? And I was so unhappy. I was absolutely miserable. Anyway, I lasted ten years in financial services and then did a psychology degree, and that started me on another whole career and, began an organization and looked after that for fifteen years. And and then I realized, actually, what I really like is working in the room with people.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:05:15]:

I wasn't enjoying running my organization, so I exited. And, you know, I I just love what I really love doing is is enabling other people to do what they do. So that's what gives me joy and passion.

Bertrand Godillot [00:05:30]:

Great. Great. So, Jessica, let's start with a foundational question. What exactly is intuition, and how does it differ from logic and reason?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:05:43]:

Okay. So let's separate those two because, you know, the the the what this thing is, of course, you know, people can argue, till the cows come home about what intuition is. And, some people say it's knowing without knowing how you know, which sounds very meta. And I say that it's it's a feeling of knowing so that you've got both the, somatic stuff going on, what's going on for you, and also the cognitive thing. Because for me, it is generally a bit of both. And you might be more skewed one way than the other. You might be a more feeling before thought person or a more thought before a feeling person. But I do think it involves both.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:06:28]:

It's it's not just about, you know, having something going on in your gut without recognising what that is. So that's what I I think it is. And also there's a sense of energy for me involved with it, you know, that you're excited and dawn towards something or you're going, that feels a bit fishy. I'm not sure about that. So and that those thoughts keep popping back into your head. So they're they come back to you. If you if you leave it, it it will pop up again. And it's just this kind of, sometimes it's a quiet thing, but sometimes it's that 'wow!' screaming at you.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:07:06]:

So people experience it differently. So that was the first bit. And then you said, how does it differ from reason and analysis? And there's a really nice quote which I can't remember where I stole it from but I definitely stole it from somewhere, it wasn't me. And it was someone who said that actually analysis is a slow worker but a fast learner. And the intuition is a fast worker but a slow learner. So that's why you can think that you've got an intuition and actually it's something else. It's, wishful thinking or ego or other things getting muddled up. So I rather like that as as a difference between the two.

Tim Hughes [00:07:53]:

Now you're not saying, when we make decisions, we do it wholly on intuition, are you? You

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:07:59]:

will No. No. No. Definitely not. Thanks, Tim. No. No. I think it's a both and.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:08:05]:

I think if you it would be very bad if you wanted to say, okay. Let's I wanna take a plane from, I don't know, Dallas to Dubai. Let's intuit which airline will cost me the least. That is, like, hello chat GPT. Could you give me some starters for 10? But when you're making a decision, for example, about your career or about something complex where there are multiple answers and there's no clear one right thing, of course you go and get the data and of course you think about it. But then you check-in with yourself about how you're feeling about that and what your intuition is telling you.

Adam Gray [00:08:49]:

So I I've I've got a question here. I I've always been, I like to think quite an intuitive person and flying by the seat of the pants. So I get a lot of this, like, you know, I'm I'm in a situation and I think, okay. This feels like the right thing for me to do. Mhmm. And then either, I I I invariably make a mistake. I either don't follow my intuition and realize that I should have done or do follow-up my intuition and realize that I shouldn't have done. So how how do I how do I balance these two things? Because I think we all are presented with a situation and we have, like, a knee jerk reaction to that for better or worse.

Adam Gray [00:09:33]:

And how how do we then kind of work through whether or not this is a an emotional reaction to the situation or whether or not this is actually leading with your kind of your your gut feel.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:09:45]:

Yes. I mean, we've all been in those those situations where, you know, you've I don't know. You've hired somebody and you you you there's been a little quiet voice in your mind going, don't do it. And you've done it anyway, and then you live to regret it. And it's very expensive and painful to undo. Mhmm. We've all done that. And we've all we've all rationalized away our intuitions as well.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:10:08]:

You know, I did that just the other day. Very annoying. So for me, I think that the if you can and if you have the time, incubation is the way to do it. So you sit with it, and you leave it, and you incubate it. That's one way of doing it. And So

Adam Gray [00:10:29]:

just talk about incubate. When you say that, I mean, we kinda know what the word means, but but

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:10:35]:

but but

Adam Gray [00:10:35]:

crystalize that. And and what exactly do you mean by incubate?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:10:39]:

Incubate. You it's like it's like being a, you know, an ostrich sitting on your eggs. You just wait. Does, you know, does it still feel right? Is there do you have that feeling of internal alignment or misalignment? And if there's a sense of, I want to do it, but I'm feeling that there's a niggle, you know, where does that niggle take you? Because good intuition should take you to where the issue is. So when you're really in tune with yourself, you go, oh, that's the thing. So so in incubation, sit on it for if you've only got ten minutes, fine, but take the ten minutes. If you've got ten hours, even better. So that would be my first piece of advice.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:11:27]:

And the second one is it's, yes, no. So these are tools. I'll give you I'll give you two two more. So just literally get get some post it notes. Write yes, no on on on yes on one, no on another. Sit with your issue and pull out, is it yes or is it no to your question? Come back. Do it again. Is it yes or no? So that you just you you kind of testing and retesting yourself.

Bertrand Godillot [00:11:55]:

Right.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:11:56]:

So that's another way of doing it. And the third one is a lovely one, which I got, from an interview I did for the book because I I did about 60 interviews talking to people. And this was a polar explorer, Matt. And, you know, his intuition, you know, if he's gonna go left or right across a crevasse, is really a matter of life or death.

Adam Gray [00:12:19]:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:12:21]:

And what he said he did was he, flips a coin into the air and it's not to see which side the coin lands on, but it's to check-in which side does he want the coin to land on, heads or tails. And that's the intuition.

Adam Gray [00:12:37]:

Yeah. It's funny you

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:12:38]:

say that

Adam Gray [00:12:40]:

because often we we are doing something, you know. Usually, it's a leisure activity and we're doing something. We go, well, I'm just gonna do one more of those and then I'm gonna stop. And then you do one more and you go, actually, I'm just gonna do one more. I'm just gonna do one more until you get that result that you want. And you go, okay. Now I can stop because I've achieved what I thought I wanted to achieve in the beginning. So I guess that that crystallizing this to understand what you're trying to achieve and to validate the decision that you know you want the outcome to be is is, yeah, it's a smart way of doing it, isn't it?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:13:14]:

Yes. And I find that when I'm coaching, often, it's it's really interesting. People know what the what it is that they want, but they're coming to me for validation that they're making the right decision. It's not that they don't know what to do. It's I just want someone to validate my cup for me. It's quite interesting. So how does it show up for you? Adam?

Adam Gray [00:13:41]:

Well, we do a lot of coaching, and and we see exactly the same thing. You know? I don't think there's been a single person that we've ever spoken to that hasn't known what they've needed to do. And a lot of what we do is we help them understand why they need to do this, and then we help them to understand how they need to do this.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:14:01]:

Mhmm.

Adam Gray [00:14:02]:

But in terms of the stuff they're actually doing, yeah, they they they know what they need to do, but they make a whole host of excuses. It's really interesting. It's like, I guess that, like, psychologists or or psychotherapists unable to analyze themselves. You know? We are every bit as prone to not doing the things we need to do as the people that we coach. So, finding strategies for us to to self diagnose this stuff, I think, is is really important.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:14:30]:

Yeah. Yeah. I I think there's another thing that is is interesting to start to observe, which often, when you're looking for a kind of an intuitive, like, where am I in all of this, what we fail to do is notice what's going on in our environment. And sometimes, you know, what your attention is being drawn to is also part of the answer. And so, you know, what is your attention being drawn to? And that's that's a great way also to go from the external to the internal. So I've got a pair of candlesticks sitting on the desk in front of me, and my attention is being drawn to that. So then I would start to question, you know, why is my attention being drawn to the candlesticks? And what the candlesticks mean to me? And just go go along go along that little route. That's a great way into intuition as well.

Tim Hughes [00:15:21]:

Because because I asked this question, earlier in the week, and Richard, said it got you know, quite quickly came back and said, correct me if I'm wrong, Richard. I may have got this the wrong way around. But you said you said, was it every job you went for, you you accepted, was based on intuition except for one, and that one went really badly went really badly. Everything else was based on intuition, and you and you went for jobs based on this just feels right.

Richard Jones [00:15:52]:

Yeah. I mean, I'd I'd kinda sort of weigh it up in my mind. It was a sort of a mental balance sheet, you know, sort of the, the positives, the negatives, the credits, and the debits, if you like. And and and and I can do that. Well, I think a lot of us can do that quite quickly. And and and occasionally, it becomes a little bit more sort of, you know, a little bit more equal. That's where you probably need to flip the coin. But have a gut instinct as to which side you want it to turn up.

Richard Jones [00:16:20]:

So yeah.

Adam Gray [00:16:23]:

This is,

Bertrand Godillot [00:16:26]:

so if if if we are not considering our audience, we may most probably made of professionals. How can they identify and interpret their intuitive signals in especially when it comes to, to to to career context?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:16:48]:

So, is that question for me, I guess? Yes. I just wanna comment I just wanna comment on, what doctor Hutt has just has has written. So one day reason said to the heart Yeah. I am a guide for those who are lost. That is beautiful. And I think that when we tune in to, you know, what is our heart telling us? What is our stomach telling us? You know, what what's act what's going on for us? And am I feeling hot or cold about this? You know, am I have I got a warning bell going off in my head? You know, those kind of things, the that's those are the intuitions. Those are the little signals that we're giving ourselves. We if we don't learn to recognize our own signals, we will never be intuitive.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:17:35]:

And it's in today's world of when you're always on and, you know, you're on this or you're on this, your phone, it's really, really hard. So for me, it's about stopping and just taking a moment. Shut your screen. What am I feeling about this? What am I sensing going on for myself? What thoughts are popping into my mind? What images? Some people don't get images in their mind's eye. I was amazed when I did research for the book to, hear that five percent of people have no mental images. Yeah, I see I see Tim, you're going, oh. Yeah. I didn't realize it was as high as that.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:18:14]:

I thought that it was a lesser number. But, those people will certainly have a sense of energy and or, you know, what's going on, you know, in their mind's ear if it's not their mind's eye. And if you can't do that, you can certainly start saying, okay, intuition. Hello. I wanna treat you as a friend. Let's have a relationship with this thing. What are you telling me right now? So I think it's perfectly fine to start to talk to your intuition, and treat it as the friend that it can be.

Tim Hughes [00:18:51]:

Because one of the things you say on the in the book as well, Jess, is that as we move up through an organization, actually, the more we rely on intuition. Because as you said earlier, it's that higher. Or should we buy that company, or should we sell the company? And and while we we we can have people going away and putting together a spreadsheet and and coming up with facts about, you know, it's we should actually be buying it or selling it. There's also you know, when we come to the the the decision, there is there is an element to intuition. You know, should we walk away from it? Adam and I met somebody this week, and, you know, and we both got a gut reaction when we met the individual that we didn't wanna do work with that that person.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:19:40]:

And isn't it quick?

Tim Hughes [00:19:41]:

And it and it was. I mean, you know, the the we won't we with the best way to sum it in a in a word that, we can use on this show is a bully.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:19:49]:

Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:19:51]:

And and and we both got that feeling independently. And so sometimes that, you know, you get this gut feeling and it you go but so so, you know, so how can we so the question is really how can we if we need to understand this, how how is it that we we we can really get and understand the intuition? How can we start leaning into it? How can we start feeling it?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:20:18]:

So I think that you did a brilliant thing, which is checking in with each other. So, I don't know who raised the issue. But if you're sensing something, probably somebody else is too. And the the main thing that you need is feedback. So to get better at it, you've got to get feedback. And for me, that's about having a diary or just noting it down. So I've got a little, note on my iPhone, and I just add it to my note, and so I've, you know, this is my intuition. And am I right, am I wrong? And then you can start, gamifying it for yourself.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:20:55]:

At the moment I'm on, 82%, so so, which I think is about standard, you know, some things you're going to get wrong, and also they might be right at the time, but they turn out wrong later. So you know, you might have an intuition about a job, for example, and then think, okay, it's right, and you need to go and do it. But actually, something shifts in there, and it turns out to then not be right. So, you know, we're we're working in a moving landscape, and I think that we have to accept that. And it would be exactly the same as if you did a spreadsheet. So, you know, you can make all the assumptions that you want and plug them into a spreadsheet, and then out it pops. Are spreadsheets always right? No. They're not.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:21:38]:

You're working on past data. So a past data does not describe the future. So we've all been there too.

Tim Hughes [00:21:46]:

Chet, just

Richard Jones [00:21:48]:

a quick one. How how much of our intuition do you think is derived from our experience? And do we become does our intuition get sort of more highly tuned the more experience we we we pick up over time?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:22:02]:

Oh, totally. Yes. So a lot of it is our experience. But equally interesting, there were two things that go against that. One is that you can have a 21 year old who's just starting their first job. And you wouldn't say, actually, you've got zero intuition, have you? You'd be saying to them, come on, what's your gut telling you? And pushing them if you're a decent boss. And they can have some very good intuitions. So, yes, experience helps, but it's not the be all and end all.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:22:34]:

And I forgot what point two was. So can't tell you. Oh, yes. There we go. You can walk into an environment that you don't know and still have a very good sense about it. So, you know, is that because you've you know human beings, and you know how different are human beings? You know?

Adam Gray [00:22:56]:

So so here here's here's a a question. I I was very upset when Steve Jobs died. I thought although he was a a hideous human being in many ways, he was incredibly inspirational in terms of what he achieved. One of the things that I particularly like that he did was, there are obviously countless recordings of him speaking and addressing audiences. And one of them is his Stanford commencement speech, where he did he discusses a number of different issues and things that he's learned in his life. And one of them was the and he says, you can only connect the dots looking backwards. And he said about how when he went to Stanford and then he dropped out, but he stayed there so he could drop in on all of these other courses, and that helped inform his view of the visual world and typography and things like that, which all came together when he made the Mac many years later. And I think that that that there is a so so this this this was a a a podcast about career and how your gut feel can help you develop your career.

Adam Gray [00:24:03]:

I'm sure that there will be many instances where people, obviously, there's there's a commercial pressure for you to have a job, particularly when you're younger and, you know, you've got big bills and you need to to to pay your bills, and you're potentially in a situation where you, you take a job because you feel you have to take a job, not because you necessarily want to take the job. And then, you know, fast forward for five years or whatever and look back at that decision. And you you you kind of are in this situation where if you'd taken one road, you know, you take the job because you have to, you're grossly unhappy, and you have a grim time for five years, or you decide not to take the job and you don't get paid for a month or two or three, and then you land the most perfect job in the world, which catapults your career somewhere entirely different. And you you can easily see this looking back. You certainly can't see it looking forward. So how much bravery do you need to implement in following that kind of gut feel, your most authentic self? Because we all of us are looking for purpose in what we do and a a dream and a mission. And and so often, I think when I when I look at the people that I interact with in the business world, that's taken very much a back seat in their lives, and they're almost a passenger in their own journey through life. So so how brave do you need to be?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:25:32]:

I think I'm not sure whether it's a question of bravery or just being open to being open. So I used to do quite a lot of, career stuff at Judge Business School in Cambridge. And, it was really interesting. It was people's networks that were really holding them back, because their parents or their partners, or their siblings, friends, would be saying, you ought, you should. And and that was a big, kind of sticking point for them. But I think if you can try out your current self or your future self and think, okay, have I got what am I feeling? I've got energy for this. And you can try out your three selves at the same time as you're exploring your world. And just, like, stay open to being open.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:26:25]:

Look about you. So I think that we get influenced, obviously, by the people around us, which doesn't necessarily help. But I do like this, Hamina Ibarra's work, when she says, just, like, take a step towards, you know, two or three possible selves and see how they would, fit you before you make any big and bad decisions in terms of career. But I think there's another thing which is interesting, another piece of data which is interesting in terms of career, which is mostly we tend to stick with jobs too long. And there's really good evidence that people don't leave jobs soon enough. And, who was the guy who wrote Freakonomics? Steve Levitt. He did a really nice piece of research. And because one of the things that he noticed was that people were finding struggling to make the decision to quit their jobs.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:27:22]:

So he set up, a little website, and he ran people through a whole series of questions about would they stick to the decision that a an online yesno, if what what what the outcome of that was, would they stick to the decision that the the computer had given them? And they ran through all these questions. And then six and then they were told, leave your job, don't leave your job. And it was kind of almost like random whether they it was leave or don't leave. But the people who were followed up six months later who had actually left their jobs as a result of going through this process, Steve Levitt's process, were much happier than those who hadn't, and had stuck with it. So his understanding was is that we don't leave our jobs soon enough, and we are not brave in taking the decisions to quit. And we just think we're gonna tough it out, and when actually we should go, you know what? Quitting is what gets you ahead.

Adam Gray [00:28:25]:

Yeah. I mean, I I get that. But but it it's kind of it's not a pure dataset, is it? Because, the mere fact you're going onto a website saying, should I leave my job or not means you're not happy in your job. Yeah. If you're not happy in your job, clearly, you should you know? So whether or not you're progressing through your career massively well, or you're stuck in the same role for an eternity, actually, if you love what you do and you're happy doing it, all things considered, that's a pretty good place to be. And and I think that that the the happiness thing is only part of the equation, isn't it?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:29:01]:

Well, courage is a big part too. You know, having the courage to to to say, right, I'm off. I'm gonna try something new. And I do think that's the hard bit that, you know, to be courageous.

Bertrand Godillot [00:29:17]:

And and and maybe we can add trust. Right? Because that's that's a that's that's a question to me. You know? You you've got because I think at the end of the day, this is what this is all about. You know? You you feel the energy. You feel that, you know, this is something that you should be doing. But how much should you trust this, especially when it gets you to nonconventional direction directions, basically?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:29:42]:

Yes. And I I think that's where coincidence we got lots of coincidence and serendipity coming in here. So now you think I want a new job. You start casting about, then you start meeting some more people. And it's the it's then who you come across, in that. So it's almost like you put the it's the thought word and deed stuff going on, isn't it? Making yourself real.

Tim Hughes [00:30:04]:

And and and and when I say I want a new job and then Facebook starts showing me job adverts, it that's not serendipity, is it? That's just

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:30:12]:

that's just That's called algorithm. Absolutely. That's cool. You better get into your privacy settings and do something about them.

Adam Gray [00:30:23]:

Yeah. But but now we've had this conversation, obviously, we will all be getting adverts for for the new platform, mate. But I think that it it's you said about dynamically, you know, journeying through in this stuff. But, sir Ken Robinson, the late great sir Ken Robinson, in his TED talk, he talks about how how we explore life dynamic dynamically based on the circumstances that are presented to us and the skills that we've acquired along the way. And that makes it no. I'm not the expert on this. Does that make it very difficult for you to plan a career? And if you go to medical school and you qualify as a doctor and then you go into medicine, your career is pretty much mapped out for you because people are always gonna get ill and they're always gonna need to get better, so therefore, you've got a job and you're never gonna run out of customers. But in so many other endeavors, you know, with there are so many external factors in whether or not the industry that you've chosen or the role that you've chosen or the company you've chosen or the product you've chosen actually has any longevity or any relevancy, You know? So you become a musician and you have a huge hit.

Adam Gray [00:31:34]:

And there's no guarantee that you're gonna have a huge hit with your next album or, you know, you launch a product which becomes flavor of the month, and and then all of a sudden it isn't flavor of the month anymore. And, so so it it how how can is can you plan a strategy? Can you plan a long term career? Or do you just have to go through and and you said about being open to things happening. Is that the key?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:32:01]:

I think so. I mean, career agility. Have you ever met someone? I've only met someone once and he was complete pain. Absolute ghastly person who said, I'm going to go to university and I'm gonna get my MBA and then I'm gonna go and consult for five years and then I'm gonna go to my dad's business. And I'm going to turn it into a worldwide thing. And, damn it, he did, because he's thoroughly unpleasant. But most of most of us, it's it's being agile about what we see in our environments, isn't it? And and going, oh, well, look, that's interesting. I'm I'm gonna move towards that thing because it's drawing me in some way.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:32:39]:

I feel a sense of energy towards it. I feel a pull towards it. And that's how I came to to be a coach. I met someone back in the nineties and I thought, wow, that sounds like a fantastic career. Oh, I better go and find out some more. And and and that's what what what took me towards that. So I think it's more the agility, and going, you know, what interests me now that I feel a sense of energy for and a pull towards, which again, it's that's the intuitive thing working. Rather than heads down, no one can do that these days and say, right.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:33:11]:

I'm gonna do forty years at x corp. Forget it. It won't happen.

Richard Jones [00:33:17]:

What what what you start out doing these days can change just by dint of the way technology evolves, You know, jobs that, they often say that, you know, jobs that people do today simply won't exist in. So, how, however many years into the future. So, you're gonna always have to rely on some degree of intuition to to go where you think the opportunity might be because you can't map out an entire career of thirty years without the world changing around you.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:33:46]:

Oh, absolutely. And I would there's so many kids who say, oh, I want to go and be a print journalist. You go, please don't do that. Even I can see that's not wise. Yeah.

Bertrand Godillot [00:34:00]:

Just two two comments in the chat. First of all, this one Mhmm. Which which is a bit, which is a bit refreshing. Thank you so much for that.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:34:16]:

Thank you, doctor Hark.

Bertrand Godillot [00:34:18]:

And then we've got, we've got this one, which is

Adam Gray [00:34:21]:

Jarrod Robin.

Bertrand Godillot [00:34:25]:

Yeah. Experience works against you. We should not open to change. And and that leads me to, to, you know, talk about the difference maybe between intuition and fear. So because we we we talked about the positive aspect of that. You know? I've got the energy. I can feel it. But there's also, there's also maybe sometimes, you know, fear and anxiety, which which is actually maybe seen as intuition.

Bertrand Godillot [00:34:59]:

But how how do you tell the difference, basically?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:35:02]:

Between fear and excitement?

Bertrand Godillot [00:35:04]:

Between fear and and anxiety.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:35:07]:

And you get anxiety.

Bertrand Godillot [00:35:08]:

So you you know, it says, don't go there. The reality is this has nothing to do with intuition.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:35:17]:

For me anxiety is a is a sharper sense of, a more urgent thing. You know, if I'm if I'm anxious about something, And it's probably more time limited. It's about a thing, isn't it? I'm anxious that I'm going to miss my train. I'm anxious that I'm going to screw up a presentation. I'm anxious that I won't get to the end of my to do list by the end of the week. Whereas intuition, I think, has a more vague feeling. So for me, there's a sharpness to that anxiety. If I'm anxious, but let's take it in a negative in a negative way.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:36:04]:

I might have an intuition that someone will be a bad hire. Would that make me anxious? I mean, this did happen to me. I I interviewed someone for a role, and I I went, oh, she's pregnant. She's not telling us. She's just found out she's pregnant. And there was I asked her a question. You know, you can't say, are you pregnant? Obviously. But I went upstairs, and I said to the office manager, listen, if you want to hire her, take her on.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:36:38]:

I think, though, she's pregnant, and there will be trouble. And I was we did hire her, and I was right. So that was, it wasn't an anxious thing that I had. It was just, a more kind of spongy feeling. And I think that those spongy feelings are very different from the the peak that, anxiety gives you.

Richard Jones [00:37:08]:

I I see the two together occasionally because I'm anxious that I might miss my train, but I'm my gut feel says it will be late anyway, so I shouldn't have to push.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:37:19]:

I'm loving that, Richard. What a what a bloke.

Tim Hughes [00:37:23]:

See, we needed comedy on here.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:37:29]:

I'm firmly anxious. I'm gonna miss my trains because I'm always running late.

Bertrand Godillot [00:37:35]:

So may maybe we can follow-up on that and and and, you know, look at, the misconceptions about intuition. Are there are there obvious misconceptions that, that you can either identify?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:37:50]:

Intuition isn't always right, what people identify as an intuition. But I'd say go back and take a look at it, because probably you're misidentifying what your intuition is. But I think Bill Gates said, my it's something like I'm I'm I'm misquoting him here, but my intuition is right, 80% of the time, but that's good enough for me to get the bat swinging. And I I like that as a as an approach. So, but it's I think it's not to be I was in a, working in a consultancy this morning, and someone said to came up and said to Matthew, you're completely wrong. There's no such thing as intuition. And I just said, let's take this one offline and talk about it later. It is a thing that does exist that people use and don't really talk about.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:38:46]:

And if we did talk about it more, other people would get better at it. And it's a great shortcut. So in a volatile, complex, uncertain, ambiguous situations that leadership is these days, there are no definite. There there just is no black and white. Everything is gray. So we need all the tools that we can get. And so if intuition is there as a tool, let's get really good at this thing. And, if we were in any other society except a weird one, like, you know, weird, what's it, white, educated, rich, democratic, etcetera.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:39:27]:

If we were in any other society other than a weird one, we'd be going, of course. Of course, we're gonna use your intuition. So if we were first peoples anywhere, that's what we one of the first things we'd learn. And and it's it's such a basic human skill.

Adam Gray [00:39:42]:

Because it's still used it's still used even in the white educated you know, I guess from from watching TV shows, most crimes in New York are serve are solved through a hunch, aren't they? Which is which is intuition in a in a in a in another word. But I I you know, from my own experience, and and and I quote Lewis Carroll here, I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it. So I'm I'm very good at judging people's characters and then parking that judgment for logic. So, you know, I met this person. I think they're a complete idiot, and I don't want anything to do with them. And then in spite of myself, I get to know them. And then I think,

Richard Jones [00:40:31]:

actually, they were all right.

Adam Gray [00:40:32]:

And then at some point down the road, something happens that I think, no. I was right in the first place. They are an idiot. Or whatever the the the the feeling that I have about them is. So how can I, develop that spidey sense in order that I actually pay attention to it rather than just ignore it? Because I'm sure that most people in their daily lives have these intuitions, and they tend not to action

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:41:03]:

them. Yes.

Adam Gray [00:41:04]:

Because you'd like you said about your friends. Oh, no. I wouldn't do that if I were you. Well, actually, you're not me, so I'm gonna do how do we how do we tough it out like that?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:41:13]:

So that's where writing it down and getting feedback on whether you were right or wrong helps, so that you can start to show yourself that you have got this thing and you're using it, and you're right or you're wrong, and it's quite binary. And and you test yourself in small situations. So I wouldn't be saying, oh, I wonder what shoes Adam's going to wear today to work. And damn, he put the gray ones on. I was wrong.

Adam Gray [00:41:36]:

You would have been wrong because I haven't

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:41:37]:

got gray ones. Yes. Well, brown, blue, purple, whatever. But I would start to say, okay. I'm gonna go into this meeting. Let me just, like, think about what kind of emotions might there be there? How might someone show up? And just, you know, am I right? Am I not right? So that you start to just, like, give yourself little little tests in this thing because that is how you can then go, alright. Yes. No.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:42:08]:

It's you you get your you give yourself some evidence, and you you are never going to use your intuition with the big decisions if you haven't done it with some of the small stuff. Yeah. So you've got to do the small stuff first. So you

Adam Gray [00:42:22]:

need to train yourself to follow your intuition by proving to yourself from the the the the analytical side of your mind that, actually, when I have this feeling, I'm right 80% of the time. Yeah. So it's a better bet necessarily than following the data to which I'm seldom privy to all of it.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:42:43]:

Yes. We've

Bertrand Godillot [00:42:44]:

got we've got another, comment from doctor Acker. I am more interested in exploring more on faith on faith, sorry, versus fear, which is kind also of, an interesting angle. Right?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:42:59]:

I think I need more information, from on the faith versus fear. But it's the the the certainty that comes from within. So, that we're listening to, I guess. I think that's what the practice this

Bertrand Godillot [00:43:16]:

is all about. Yeah.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:43:17]:

Is is saying. So, you know, how how do you do that? But that's again, that's coming back, and having some proof for yourself. So that's where, again, you know, I I I sense this about someone. You sense it the same. You've got some proof. You trust yourself. You trust in your judgment about people. And for me, judgment is pretty much an intuition.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:43:41]:

So that you've got you you both got some you both got the same feeling, didn't you, about the person that you didn't like or thought actually that they won't be a good business partner. And so, you know, that's, feedback. That's confirmation. And and, it's really interesting because I, interviewed someone who invests, was running a a VC fund for for my book. And he said that he makes all his decisions based on gut. And he looked at one deal and he'd never, it was just he just got the synthesis of the deal. And he just said it's never going to work, looking at it on paper. And I said, you know, how do you do that? And he just said, look, I've just been doing deals, and maybe it is my expertise.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:44:35]:

I just knew it would never work. And and it and, of course, it didn't. But when you post rationalize the thought that you had, it's never as your articulation of it is never as intense and strong and as good as that internal sense of, it's never going to work. So this is where it's so hard, and it's so hard in talking to other people. In the same way, so Owen said to me this as well that he had he walked into a lab and he immediately said, we got to invest. They talked to the the, the founder for ten minutes, and and he said, this is a deal we have to do, to one of his colleagues. And, they didn't they didn't know everything about it. They didn't understand all the technology at the time, but, he just knew that that they needed to acquire this business.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:45:37]:

And, he he said that it was extremely difficult to go and explain why he had had this very strong intuition. They did acquire the business, and I mean, he was right. But there we go. Mhmm.

Bertrand Godillot [00:45:54]:

I think you talked earlier, if I trust my notes, but you mentioned ego.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:46:01]:

Oh, yes.

Bertrand Godillot [00:46:03]:

So, so what's the difference? How can you tell you how can you tell you're driven by your ego, basically?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:46:14]:

Well, I think if you're never prepared to listen to feedback from someone else, or to have your decision challenged, or to to say, actually, I was wrong, Hello. Ego shouting, probably quite loudly. And and intuition wouldn't do that to you. You just be you so if it's if it's an intuitive perspective that you're coming from, you know, would you be taking the same stance? Probably not. Probably not. And I think the other thing about intuition is if someone else overrides it, you you can go back when, you know, time will tell. That is a great thing with intuition. Time will always tell.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:47:08]:

Serendipity. Got serendipity through analytics. Oh, doctor Hack. I don't know what you've been smoking, but I want some of it. Serendipity. Serendipity, I think, is a is a lovely, beautiful thing as well, which you often then think, oh my goodness, the world is speaking to me. The universe is speaking to me. Because you have some issue.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:47:30]:

I mean, I don't know. I don't know whether this has happened to, any either of you. You go, I'm just gonna read this paper. And you read a paper or an article, and then the very next meeting that you go into, you go, that was the thing I had to read because the issue comes up. So you've been given the answer before you even knew you needed it. So serendipity is a beautiful thing. And there's now there's some really interesting work about coincidence and serendipity because lots of labs at the same time are coming up with similar results. And there's now a journal looking at how it is that this happens.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:48:16]:

When people aren't knowing that other research is going on at the same time, that they haven't been in touch with each other.

Adam Gray [00:48:23]:

Yeah. So so, we we believe in serendipity, but we also believe that you can, you can manufacture a certain amount of that. So like you said about, you know, you read this paper and then at the very next meeting, the paper that you've read is valuable because it it helps inform your viewpoint on something.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:48:48]:

Or someone else's.

Adam Gray [00:48:49]:

Yeah. But if you read lots of papers, you are maximizing the chance of that happening. So, you know, our our role is to help people be in the right place at the right time to be able to have conversations that lead to commercial interactions with people. And we we teach people a whole load of skills that they need to employ. However, the most important skill is they need to to get off their ass and actually do stuff. So, you know, it's like if if network and building relationships with people is the most important thing, you can either sit at home typing stuff, or you can go and meet people, either virtually or or or in the real world. And it's taking that step that is the most important step. And, and and I guess that that, again, like joining the dots looking back, subsequently, you can see value in it.

Adam Gray [00:49:43]:

You can't predict that there's gonna be value there, but you know if you shake hands and introduce yourself to a hundred people a week every single week, sooner or later, you're gonna say, here's what I do, and someone's gonna say, oh my god. That's serendipity because I need to buy some of that immediately. Okay?

Bertrand Godillot [00:49:57]:

Yes.

Adam Gray [00:49:58]:

Well, from a sales perspective, that's that's that's the new door knocking, isn't it?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:50:03]:

Mhmm. I think also, you know, you're never gonna change the world by clearing your inbox. But you might just change your world by going out there, and meeting some people and having some new ideas and and chatting with, whoever's in front of you. Getting some answers. So

Tim Hughes [00:50:25]:

So, Simon Wilkins Yeah. Says, I must have a lot of intuition. 12 wrong placements in twenty two years. I assume, Simon, you're being sarcastic.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:50:38]:

I hope that Simon's, on on the the in the next one, he'll he'll take some of that into account. Yeah.

Bertrand Godillot [00:50:51]:

Alright.

Tim Hughes [00:50:54]:

So, just just so you know, Jessica has a new book out, because it's the the adverts now, you see. And I'm hoping for those for those listening later on in radio, I'm holding it up. It's called intuition at work, using your gut feelings to get ahead.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:51:12]:

Thank you. Thank you, Tim.

Bertrand Godillot [00:51:14]:

Jessica, this this has been, great. Where can people learn more? So we've seen it in the book, of course. But, how can we get in touch with you?

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:51:25]:

Please, find me on LinkedIn. I'm about to launch a new website, which will be jessicaprycejones.com. I'll comment that it should be around in a couple of weeks. And, I really love chatting to people on LinkedIn, so please do find me find me there.

Bertrand Godillot [00:51:44]:

Okay. Excellent. Perfect. We now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode. Get the show highlights, build the show insights, and reminders of upcoming episodes. You may scan the QR code on screen or visit us at digitaldownload.live/newsletter. On behalf of the panelists, to our guest, Jessica, and to our audience, thank you all, and see you next time.

Bertrand Godillot [00:52:18]:

Bye bye. Thank you.

Adam Gray [00:52:19]:

Thanks, everyone.

Jessica Pryce-Jones [00:52:19]:

Thank you.

#Intuition #CareerDevelopment #Leadership #SocialSelling #DigitalSelling #SocialEnablemenet #LinkedInLive #Podcast