This week on The Digital Download, we are exploring why so many brands, despite having solid products and services, remain utterly forgettable. The market is flooded with undifferentiated messaging, so how do you build a brand that people genuinely care about? To answer this, we welcome our special guest, Kevin Perlmutter, the Founder and Chief Strategist of Limbic Brand Evolution, and Author of Brand Desire.

Whilst most companies focus on the rational—what they say and what they sell—Kevin argues for a "feeling-first" approach to brand strategy. He will explain why connecting with customers on an emotional level is the key to driving growth and how his proprietary Limbic Sparks® methodology, based on behavioural science, helps brands achieve this.

Join us as we discuss questions like:

• Why do most rational brand strategies result in forgettable experiences?

• What does a "feeling-first" brand strategy actually look like in practice?

• How can brands use senses like sound to create "irrational loyalty"?

• Can B2B companies truly leverage emotion, or is this just a B2C game?

• What is the first step to uncovering the "Limbic Sparks" that will resonate with your audience?

As the Founder of a brand strategy consultancy and with a background as Chief Strategist at the sonic branding agency, where he created an award-winning neuroscience-based research capability, and as Senior Director of Brand Strategy at Interbrand, where he created their first global customer experience practice, Kevin has helped shape emotionally resonant strategies for global brands like AT&T, iRobot, and Nissan. This episode will provide a clear roadmap for anyone looking to move beyond forgettable messaging and build a brand that creates a powerful, lasting connection.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is keenly encouraged!

This week's Host was -

• Bertrand Godillot, Founder and Managing Partner of Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Our guest this week was -

• Kevin Perlmutter, the Founder and Chief Strategist of Limbic Brand Evolution, and Author of Brand Desire

Panelists included -

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

• Richard Jones, Richard Jones, Director of Qure 8 Ltd

• Tracy Borreson, Founder and CEO of TLB Coaching & Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite

Transcript of The Digital Download 2025-10-17

Bertrand Godillot [00:00:06]:

Good afternoon, good morning and good day, wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of the Digital Download, the longest running weekly business Talk show on LinkedIn Live, now globally syndicated on TuneIn radio through IBGR, world's number one business news talk and strategy radio network. Today on the Digital Download, we're exploring why so many brands, despite having solid products and services, remain utterly forgettable. The market is flooded with undifferentiated messaging. So how do you build a brand that people genuinely care about? To answer this, we will welcome our special guest, Kevin Perlmutter, the founder and chief strategic of Limbic Brand Evolution and author of Brand Desire. But before we bring Kevin on, let's go around the set and introduce everyone.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:12]:

While we're doing this, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend, ping them and let them join us. We strive to make the Digital Download an interactive experience and audience participation is highly encouraged. Let's start with some introductions. So, Tracy, welcome.

Tracy Borreson [00:01:31]:

Hello everyone. I am Tracy Boresson, founder of TLB Coaching and Events, a proud partner of the show and of DLA Knight. As a resident authentic marketing advisor, as you can imagine, I'm quite excited about a brand conversation, especially with my good friend Kevin. So I'm very excited for today. Can't wait.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:53]:

So we are. So we are. Especially because Kevin has made quite some buzz around this show. So we expect some pretty straightforward answers to our very straightforward questions. Richard, do you want to introduce yourself, please?

Richard Jones [00:02:09]:

Good afternoon everyone. Richard Jones from, from Curate. I'm relative newbie to social selling, but occasional panelists on this session and I must really sort out, my background is entirely uninspiring. So if it was a brand, it would be very forgettable.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:30]:

That was a good one, Adam.

Adam Gray [00:02:36]:

Whoops. Hello everybody. And it's great to be here. I'm Adam Gray. I'm co founder of the LA Ignite and I'm. I'm very much looking forward to this because I, I used to be a marketer many years. I mean we're all marketers always, like we're all sales people all the time. But marketing used to be my thing many years ago, branding and marketing.

Adam Gray [00:02:56]:

So it's quite interesting having changed to sales where I'm, I'm much more dubious about the value that brand and marketing provides than how it used to be. So this will be an interesting conversation to have.

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:13]:

I'm sure it will. I'm sure it will.

Tracy Borreson [00:03:16]:

Any conversation that starts with dubious is just going.

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:22]:

All right. As I said this week on the digital download, we'll speak with Kevin. Whilst most companies focus on the rational so what they say and what they sell, Kevin argues for a feeling first approach to brand strategy. He would explain why connecting with customer on an emotional level is the key to driving growth and how his proprietary limbic Sparks methodology based on behavior science helps brands achieve this. Let's bring him on.

Tracy Borreson [00:03:59]:

Hey, welcome, Kevin.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:04:02]:

Thanks for having me in this wonderful group.

Adam Gray [00:04:04]:

It's amazing.

Bertrand Godillot [00:04:06]:

Kevin, good morning.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:04:08]:

Good morning.

Bertrand Godillot [00:04:09]:

Good afternoon to you.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:04:11]:

Good early morning to Tracy.

Tracy Borreson [00:04:15]:

I come because the conversation is good.

Adam Gray [00:04:17]:

Yes.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:04:17]:

Well, that's why I'm here as well.

Bertrand Godillot [00:04:20]:

That's it. That sets the scenes for sure. All right, Kevin, why don't you start with. With telling us a little bit more about yourself and what has led you to where you are today.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:04:35]:

Yeah. Well, first of all, thanks again for bringing me on. I am a non traditional brand strategist. I'm someone who focuses on bringing behavioral science into brand strategy and understanding of behavioral science and focusing on the way people want to feel as the most important thing that a brand leader or a marketing person or a brand consultant should be thinking about. I'm creator of Sparks brand strategy, author of a book called Brand Spark Customer Interest Using Emotional Insight, and I am here to have a good time with you all this morning and chat about brands and feelings and anything in between.

Bertrand Godillot [00:05:18]:

Excellent. So we have all the same intentions here and I'm sure we're going to have a great show. So every show starts the same. So I'm going to raise a foundational question now to you, Kevin. Why do most rational brand strategies result in forgettable experiences?

Kevin Perlmutter [00:05:39]:

It's a great question. I'm going to start by eliminating a word that we're going to come back to later, which is the word rational. Okay, so why do most brand strategies result in forgettable experiences? I don't think it's for a lack of trying. I think there are good intentions out there. I think there's a lot of approaches to things that are stuck in the past. They're stuck in the persuasion era. They are rooted in more selling than solving. They're rooted in more what the brand wants to say than understanding what's going on in people's lives and what they would benefit from hearing about.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:06:19]:

And I think. And it comes back to that word rational. Again, it comes back to language. It comes back to language that perpetuates old ways of doing things that come from a persuasion era that everyone is used to using and keeps moving forward with. In contrast to understanding how the brain works, understanding the inextricable link between how our, how something makes us feel and our desire to bring that into our lives and not bringing that type of insight into the work that they're doing.

Bertrand Godillot [00:06:55]:

Okay, anyone, anybody wants to react to this? Because we have already a lot of stuff in there.

Tracy Borreson [00:07:03]:

I think, I think dubious Adam wants to react. React.

Adam Gray [00:07:06]:

Yeah, so. So I think that, that often in business and particularly with, with marketing based activities, marketers tend to be very good at writing mellifluous, beautiful phrases and people engage with these phrases like, you know, we want to be a helpful brand. A everyone goes, yeah, that's us. We want to be a helpful brand. But actually, actually, what, what does that look like? What does that mean you actually have to do? What are the actions that you need to take? So, so everybody wants to believe that they've got a strategy which is going to deliver a brand that worms its way into people's hearts and becomes a loved brand, you know, like Coca Cola or Apple or whatever brand it happens to be. So what are the steps that you need to take to achieve that? Because clearly, you know, it isn't going to happen by accident. Is it all luck?

Kevin Perlmutter [00:08:11]:

Is that directed at me going to answer another question? Oh, okay.

Tracy Borreson [00:08:19]:

You have to answer a question. Unless you ask a question.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:08:21]:

Ah, okay. I don't think it has anything to do with luck, actually. I think, I think, and I don't think it has anything to do with a bunch of people standing around a room saying, you know, what do we want to tell people about our brand? How do we, what do we want people to know about our brand? Let's, let's create a loved brand and tell them why they should love it. I don't think that's the way this works. I don't think it works naturally. I think what, what needs to happen is there needs to be less looking at the whiteboard in your office and asking each other what you want to tell people and more getting out and talking to people to understand what's going on in their lives in the absence of your brand, to understand what they're going through, what their needs, challenges, frustrations, you know, what, what's going on in their life that's relevant to what you have to offer and how can you find the natural intersection between what you have to offer and what they need, want and desire to be happier, more successful, whatever they're trying to achieve.

Adam Gray [00:09:27]:

I, I get that. If it's, if, if your brand is something unique in the marketplace, you know, if you are creating a product that is first to market or, or is breaking a virgin path through. Through the market. But if you were a car brand, say, you know, we're in the situation now where there is no such thing as a bad car. You know, every car starts first time, does 40 miles per gallon, will do 120, 150 miles an hour, is safe, is comfortable and has got all of those extras in that once would have differentiated one brand from another. So if you buy a Mercedes or a BMW or a Rolls Royce or a Skoda or a Volkswagen, they're all the same thing. Yeah. You know, there are little differences, but there's nothing in there that would.

Adam Gray [00:10:17]:

Would make somebody, you know objectively say, oh, this car solves a problem that no other vehicle does. So how do you go about creating a brand that does give you a differentiator in the marketplace?

Kevin Perlmutter [00:10:34]:

You have to know who your audience is and you have to be very specific and clear about what it is that they're going to feel when that brand is brought into your life. Into their life. So goes back a long ways. But Volvo did a really good job and it's lasted for decades. Standing for safety.

Adam Gray [00:10:55]:

Yeah.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:10:56]:

And for people who want a safe vehicle, they've hit on something that people want and respond to. If you want the ultimate driving machine, you might consider a BMW. Or if you're into performance in that particular way, if you grew up in the 80s and watched the movie Risky Business and heard that there is no substitute, you might spend 30 years wanting a Porsche. It's just this is, this is in that particular industry, a lot has to do with tapping into how people want to feel. And there are many ways that people want to feel. Not everybody wants to take a BMW out on the road and drive it like they're on the Autobahn weaving through traffic. Some people want a much different experience out of their vehicle and some people just don't care. They just want to get from A to B.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:11:49]:

And that's why there are different cars that stand for different things with different price points. And the automotive industry does a really good job tapping into how people want to feel. By and large, I would say professional services firms do a much worse job of tapping into how people want to feel. And I think most of the brands out in the world are not, are not big, expensive luxury automobiles or fashion beauty brands. They are professional services firms. They are experiences. There are things that people are trying to sell that are relatively commoditized. I wouldn't call cars commodities.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:12:21]:

Go ahead Tracy, I'm sorry.

Richard Jones [00:12:22]:

The thing is, Kevin, I mean, none of those companies you referred to there, those car companies, started out with the brand they now represent in mind. That's very much evolved over time, hasn't it? You know, when Volvo, they built a safe car, but they didn't necessarily go out there thinking, we want to be known for safe cars. Porsche, you know, started out building a relatively modest car and it's kind of evolved, same with BMW. So do you think that's the same? Does it, Is it, is it your sort of the way you are ultimately crafts the brand rather than crafting a brand and then try and be it?

Kevin Perlmutter [00:13:01]:

It's a great question. So I, I would say that there are certain brands that set out to own a specific segment of the market based on something that they stand for. And I don't recall the exact history of Volvo, but I know that for 40 years they cornered the market on safety. Whether they started that way 30 years earlier, I have no idea. I think they were actually the inventor of the first seatbelt and that might have been something that launched them into that territory, but I don't know for sure. But here's what I believe when it comes to. This is a core belief of mine. When it comes to established brands, we can have a whole conversation about starting a brand.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:13:41]:

But when you have an established brand with customers, with customers who are coming back for more on a regular basis, and you as a brand leader say, hey, that's great, I'd love more customers, what do you do? What do you stand for? Well, I would say it's not to go into a room and say, wow, is what we stand for enough? Or should we like go over there on the two by two because nobody else is talking about it? I would say the opposite approach is important. You talk to, you understand from your existing customers, you ask them questions that tap into why they choose your brand. If this brand didn't exist, what would you miss the most? What would you tell your friend if you had one reason, one reason why they should go buy this brand, how does this brand make you feel? You understand this about your current customers and then you can take that insight and turn it into the benefits that you stand for. Because that's what you've heard in some form that is like not only informative, but the common themes keep rising to the top. You know, you have some confidence that your customers choose you for these reasons. And so first of all, the one thing that I always do is I'm never going to create strategy without hearing from customers and looking for those common themes to understand why those current customers keep choosing this brand. But the second thing that I've observed time and time again, every single time, is those reasons aren't proof points. They're not these, quote, rational benefits that were brought up earlier.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:15:20]:

They are emotional benefits. They are the reasons they are. They're the things that people feel when they are brought into the world of this brand. And what they will miss the most if this brand went away.

Tracy Borreson [00:15:34]:

Yeah, I think that the thing that's really interesting to me is unless you talk to the customers, that there's so many reasons that somebody could be choosing a brand and guessing. And even in marketing, there's a lot of guess and test, right? So we're like, oh, we'll do an email campaign that tests whether or not people like us because of this or because of this. When, like, really, you could just talk to a few customers and you could get a lot better data a lot faster. But, like, I'm thinking about my. Because we're talking about cars. I'm talking about my relationship with Mercedes, right? I got my first Mercedes because my dad believed that they were a safe car, right? So then that's what I believed, because that's what he believed. And then my family and I started watching F1, and then, like, Mercedes became my favorite team. And now I have, like, a different input, which is actually marketing.

Tracy Borreson [00:16:31]:

There's tons of marketing that goes into F1. Like, this is the way I build a relationship with a brand. And that is not the way that every single person builds a relationship with a brand. And so when you have that, like you said, Kevin, proof point, like that one, proof where, like, oh, this is how Tracy does it. So that must be how every single person who's ever bought a Mercedes builds a relationship with my brand. Not true either. So there's a lot more to it in terms of, like, okay, as that person is building that relationship that way, how does it make them feel? And the feeling is where I. This is why Kevin and I are friends.

Tracy Borreson [00:17:13]:

That's where I feel like the alignment exists in that, like, I might do these things or interact with these marketing things, and this other person might interact with these marketing things. But at the end of the day, the feeling the. That we're desiring is the same. And the feeling I'm desiring isn't posted somewhere on my LinkedIn profile or in the data that Facebook collects about me. So you gotta try harder than that.

Bertrand Godillot [00:17:40]:

So Mary says hello. So, good morning, Mary.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:17:43]:

Good Morning, Maria. Good to see you today.

Bertrand Godillot [00:17:48]:

I'd like to come back to something you said earlier, Kevin, about how do you make that happen? So you go into, to your existing customers and try to understand why they've chosen you, basically. And I guess that's also a part of culture. So my question is, can you be completely different? Especially if you want to reach people emotionally, can you be completely different outside and inside?

Kevin Perlmutter [00:18:20]:

To clarify the question, you're talking about how brands make people feel in different parts of the world based on their culture. Is that the question?

Bertrand Godillot [00:18:27]:

Yeah, I was not talking about can you have it Can. What is the path of your internal culture as an.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:18:33]:

Oh, internal. Oh, oh, yes, I like that.

Bertrand Godillot [00:18:35]:

Sorry, that's my friend.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:18:36]:

Both questions, they're both great questions. We can go in different directions, but I'll stay inside for a second to go with where you were going. I believe strongly that your brand should be your beacon internally and externally. So if you put out there a brand promise or a brand idea or a tagline or, you know, know, like the ultimate driving machine or something like that. First of all, I believe that all brand ideas should note, I believe that no brand idea should be an about us statement.

Richard Jones [00:19:06]:

There's.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:19:06]:

There's no reason for a brand to say we do this. In the work that I do, I, I set very specific and narrower criteria for certain things than what's already out there. Because as I said before, there's a lot out there from the persuasion era that goes with a lot of language like rational versus irrational, like proof points, like these types of unique selling proposition. All this language that's rooted in persuasion. But I believe there's language that you can put in place that actually steers you in the direction of the customer, like the shared emotional motivation and defining a brand idea or tagline as a compelling brand benefit and invitation. So I'm getting to your point, Bertrand. The. If you have a tagline or a brand idea that is a compelling brand benefit and invitation like yours to discover, or the ultimate driving machine, or these, these type, these types of invitations to people, to how people want to feel, they should be your beacon internally and externally.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:20:09]:

Externally, they draw people into an experience that feels like it was designed with them in mind, that they would probably crave if they thought about it in advance, and that sparks their interest and desire when they see it for the first time, it draws them in. But a line like that also creates a imperative internally to continue to deliver on that promise because you're inviting somebody into something and you don't want to disappoint them. Brands can't hide. Brands with good advertising can't hide their bad experiences. So you actually have to be true and authentic. You have to invite somebody into something that you've discovered your brand is really good at. From the research you've done, talking with customers about how they feel when they're with your brand, when you turn that into strategy, you're inviting somebody new into it on the outside. Internally, it becomes your beacon for what you're there to deliver.

Richard Jones [00:21:07]:

That's interesting, Kevin. You talk about strap lines. I've got a friend of mine and he. He plays a game when he's on a long journey called Crap Lines, where he looks at trucks and the various sort of strap lines that they put to. To promote their brand. And some of them are truly awful. But obviously it made me think about the sort of the. The tagline we tend to put on our LinkedIn profile.

Richard Jones [00:21:32]:

Know that Adam and the team are obviously very big on putting something on there that's interesting and, you know, certainly resonates when you say it needs to be sort of a benefit and an invite. But the norm seems to be put exactly what you do under your name, which seems to be completely at odds with what you're suggesting.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:21:56]:

It is. You know, we are designed to. To tell people what we want them to know. And it takes some insight and some energy and some going against what we believe might be the right thing to do to actually recognize. And this is the challenge. LinkedIn headlines are a good example. But this is the challenge we face in the entirety of the industry we're talking about, is that people sit in a company and they're like, this is what we need people to know. This is what we work so hard on.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:22:29]:

This is what we do, and we need people to know about it so they will come to get all the great things we're doing for them. And people don't necessarily respond to that as much as they respond to a benefit that feels relevant to them. And the only way to get to a benefit that feels relevant to them is to understand them better. Just doing it internally is a rough. Is a rough go.

Richard Jones [00:22:56]:

Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:22:57]:

Isn't this, though, a utopian view of how things should be? So, you know, we had Nike, let's say, a good example of this, you know, founded by two guys in Seattle selling shoes they'd made out of the back of their car, that their advertising. They would only ever run one advert once, and then they would change it because they saw it as a letter from them to their friends. So if I sent you a letter, Kevin, I wouldn't two weeks later send you the same letter again, then two weeks later send you the same letter again. I'd write a different letter each time. And I get that. And their strap line. Just do it. Is an incredibly motivational strap line.

Adam Gray [00:23:45]:

And I kind of think that, that when they sat down and they brainstormed that they had a big dream for where they were going. Now, fast forward to today when organizations create brands. And I was thinking about some of the mail delivery companies in the world where they've created a strap line by committee. So I was thinking about, and I forget who it is that says delivering for you as their strap, which is a good one. Well, it's quite, quite cheesy setting yourself up for disappointment. It's like me putting my LinkedIn strap line as being the most handsome man on LinkedIn. Well, clearly, clearly when somebody clicks the link, they're gonna face huge disappointment.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:24:35]:

Yeah. I mean, good advertising is not, you know, can't be solved for bad experiences. So I wasn't, I wasn't making a commentary.

Adam Gray [00:24:47]:

No, no, no, no, it's fine. I'm old enough and clearly ugly enough to, to, to be able to. You have to, you have to balance these things, don't you? Between creating something which is authentic, Tracy, and, and friendly and reflects what it is that matters to you as a brand and what it is that matters to your customers. But equally, you can't say, you know, BMW, the ultimate driving machine, would be a great example of this. No, it isn't. You know, just down the road they've got Porsche and then across the border into Italy you've got Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati. All of which would say, well, we're much more of a driving machine than BMW. Not taking anything away from BMW as a good car, but it isn't the ultimate driving machine.

Richard Jones [00:25:33]:

Probably the best lager in the world says it all.

Adam Gray [00:25:37]:

Yeah, probably not would be the response to that particular strap line. And I think that is it, that brands and advertising and salespeople, truth has fallen out of that as a concept.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:25:58]:

You could say yes, because there are so many thousands of examples where it could be true that truth has fallen out. But just going back to the examples that you gave, you know, the we deliver for you is an obvious about us statement stating something obvious that they're supposed to be doing anyway. There's no benefit for the customer other than they're going to do their job. There's nothing there yeah, there's nothing there. I will go back to, I will begrudgingly go back to the, the Nike example, because I hate turkey. Talking about like the most famous amazing brands in the world, you know, the top five brands that always do everything. Incredible, because they are, but not every, I mean, there are hundreds of thousands of brands that aren't a Nike and they need, they need professional consulting help as well. But, but Nike, what Nike is doing right there is they are tapping into how people want to feel.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:27:00]:

And for the lifetime of that brand, since the early 80s, since they invented the waffle shoes that I wore in high school and it was wonderful and they were really great. They actually lighted on the fact that no matter who you are, you can feel like an athlete. And they're helping you feel that way. Just do it. It's a benefit, it's an invitation. It's bringing you into something that you want to feel. So, yeah, they're one of the greatest brands in the world and they're doing it right. And they're always the example that people talk about for good reason.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:27:32]:

But what they've done so well others can learn from. If you are a postal service, you don't need to talk about the fact that you deliver mail in your strap line. You should be talking about how it makes people feel when your mail arrives every day on time. You know, and I'm not going to invent strategy for them right now, but there's got to be a better way to communicate the wonderful things that they do for you.

Adam Gray [00:27:54]:

Was it DHL that used to say when it absolutely, definitely, positively has to be there?

Kevin Perlmutter [00:28:00]:

Yeah, FedEx, when absolutely positive, has to be there overnight. Great line. You know, like they are tapping into the, the, the insight that their customers need things to get there on time and can, and this can happen in 12 hours no matter where you are in the world. They tapped into something amazing and, and people had confidence that if it absolutely needed to be there overnight, that FedEx was the one to go to. They made, they brought people into how they wanted to feel, which was when I dropped this off at 5 o' clock in the afternoon, it is going to be across the country, ten o' clock the next morning.

Tracy Borreson [00:28:40]:

And I think like Adam, one of the things that's really interesting too, about the ultimate driving experience that we're talking about in that, like, yes, there's a whole bunch of exotic cars that maybe other people would say have a more premium driving experience. That's the logic behind it. But I always think it's Funny. So Nicholas, my seven year old, very into cars right now, and he always asks me, mama, what sports car would you drive? And I'm like, I would not drive a sports car. I would rather have a little hatchback because that feels like what fits me, right? And this is when you think, when you get back into the like, okay, if we're looking at all of these things on a spec sheet, right, These go faster. They, they also use more expensive gas, right? Or they use gas faster, right? Like there's, there's lots of pros and cons. You see this very commonly in like B2B tech, right? They'll put a, a page on their website where like, here's our competitor and here's us and here's what we have and here's what they don't have. Nobody's buying this on the spec sheet, right? No one bought a Lamborghini on the spec sheet.

Tracy Borreson [00:29:47]:

They bought a Lamborghini because it's a Lamborghini, right? If you spec sheeted against a Ferrari, I don't know the difference, right? Like, they're probably very close. Like you said at the beginning, all of these things are actually very close. But there's certain people that resonate with certain things. And I think what we all know is that there's not one person that resonates with all of the things. There's not Tracy, Boris, and sitting here like, I'm gonna look at the spec sheet of every single car because I have budget for every single car and I can equally consider every single car that matches my lifestyle in Canada, right? This is why I would not have a sports car. I gotta drive my car for eight months here in the snow, right? Like, I'm not gonna have a sports car. It doesn't make sense. And so like, but again, you, Lamborghini and Ferrari don't control that about me.

Tracy Borreson [00:30:38]:

I control that about me. And so when you can tap into that, those choices that your customers are making, like Kevin said, this is not what all customers are making. This is the choices your customers are making. Why? Why can Nike continue to tap into the just do it line? It's one of the few companies that hasn't changed its tagline in forever, right? A lot of other big companies change their taglines, but we have think different. We have just do it. These are things that are an invitation that people are like, yeah, I do want to think differently. Yeah, I do want to just do it. I don't want to have like all this reasons why I can't do it.

Tracy Borreson [00:31:22]:

I can do it. But that's not all people, even all these quote unquote, world's most successful brands. 100 of people don't buy Nike. Yeah, 100 of people don't buy Apple. I think Apple's still like what, 26% of the market share, right? Like this isn't about.

Adam Gray [00:31:41]:

It is more than 80% of the profit share of the smartphone. So they've got that bit nailed.

Tracy Borreson [00:31:47]:

They did, yes. Revenue models are a different conversation.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:31:51]:

There's a, there's something. Jim. Oh, sorry, Bertrand, go ahead.

Bertrand Godillot [00:31:55]:

No, there's something that I really wonder as well. And, and because I mean, everything we say since the beginning of the show sounds reasonable, I would say. So why is the market doing exactly the opposite? So why are we only talking about exceptions? Why the vast majority keeps on going for keeps, keeps going for persuasion versus invitation. Do you have an idea on that?

Kevin Perlmutter [00:32:25]:

You know, I think it's for a lack of knowing a better way. There's so behavior, people, people resort to what they know. And, and that's, that's where I feel there's a huge opportunity for people to change the way they do things is if their minds are open up to the greater understanding we have now about how the brain works. There's been so much increased understanding of how the brain works and conversation about it at a, from a niche to a mass level within our industry. Yet nobody's changing the playbook. That's the problem. The playbook hasn't changed. So when you have have people writing the creative brief and it says, you know, what do we know about our audience? And they, they look around the office and they say, hey, what do we know about our audience? You know, and they, you know, they, they write it down on a piece of paper because they have to get the credit creative brief done.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:33:22]:

And it says, what's the unique selling proposition? What are we going to sell to them? You know, they're going to write down that what are the proof points? The words proof points by and large mean how are we going to prove to them that they should be going in this direction? So we have, we have a language throughout the industry. We have templates for how to do things. We have people who have only done it this way and it is somewhat risky to start doing things in a new way. And, and especially if you don't know what you're doing or even why you should be doing it. You won't do it in a new way if you don't know why you should be doing it. So what what people can learn is that there are behavioral science principles that, that, that I discovered in the last eight years ago, nine years ago that led me to this kind of new new thinking. To become a non traditional brand strategist, to be someone who put prioritizes emotional insight. Our emotional motivations are the driving forces behind our decisions and behaviors.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:34:27]:

So if, if that, if from a scientific perspective that is true, so then why would we not tap into people's emotional motivations and understand them before investing budget in how we present our brand? There's a behavioral science principle called approach avoidance motivation theory which says that we gravitate naturally toward the things that make us feel good and we resist and push away from the things that make us feel bad. So if that's the case, why would so many brands perpetuate brand experiences that make people feel horrible? It forces their customers to have this instinctive response that they don't want to have that experience again. And they will only do it begrudgingly if they have to, until a better choice comes along. But by understanding these behavioral science principles and how the brain works and aligning what you do and what your brand says and does to attract and retain customers with, with that understanding, you can be much more effective at what you're doing.

Adam Gray [00:35:39]:

But isn't the, the challenge for you and for us in what we do, isn't the challenge that the argument you make for this is irrefutably steeped in fact and proof. And you tell this to somebody and they say absolutely, I, there's no, no argument that I can raise against what you just told me, however. And then there's that, and then there's the, we can't do that right now. My boss is scared of that. Well, that's not how we do things in our industry or whatever the argument is. And it's like, it's like the branding equivalent of no one ever got fired for hire, you know, for using IBM. And it's a similar kind of thing, isn't it? You know Tracy's comment about. Yeah, what we're going to do is we're going to send out a load of emails and we'll see which, which thing the clients click on.

Adam Gray [00:36:31]:

Yeah, actually it's completely the wrong way of doing it. You need to understand what they want first. Yeah, but actually, let's just get the email out because, because, you know, it's one of my KPIs. And, and in order to change these, you know, these are fundamental business operational issues, aren't they? And you have to re Plumb and remap how a business operates and perhaps more importantly, how people measure their performance against those criteria and how they're compensated in order to get this kind of thing to be well, yeah, of course, obviously we need to do that. We need to talk about the customer as long as we can get in a couple of lines about how our product is market leading. And in the top right hand quadrant or whatever is the, the big thing they want to say?

Tracy Borreson [00:37:22]:

Well, I think that something that I think is really interesting when we get into this is like everything Kevin is talking about is, is human behavior and psychology. Right. And when we extrapolate that to the way most people are doing things, humans follow their patterns. It's very difficult to pattern interrupt. And so what we're actually talking about here today is a pattern interrupt for most marketers or most marketing departments. And so then we're also looking at an associated behavior change. We have 20 years, 30 years, 40 years in some scenarios where people are just like, this is the way we do it. And if I'm going to come in as a brand strategist, I can't just be like, here's the right way to do it, guys.

Tracy Borreson [00:38:11]:

And they're like, yep, logic says that's the right way to do it. But I'm also dealing with 40 years of habits that will not allow me to do that. Those habits will more likely allow me, and I think we've talked about this on another show, to convince myself that what I'm doing is working. Convince myself that what I'm doing is that right. So then really the challenge for these non traditional brand strategists is to help people move through that journey to in a safe space scenario. See, this isn't doing that though. And like, how can we have enough self awareness as individuals to be able to say like, well shoot, that isn't doing it. And I do want to do that.

Tracy Borreson [00:38:55]:

So now I need to adjust my behavior on a marketing point of view before I can even address changing my behavior towards the market.

Bertrand Godillot [00:39:05]:

So we have Maya who says this. One thing that changed my market marketing approach from Brand Desire was starting with the reason to care instead of USP or reason to believe. But any, any comments on that.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:39:24]:

And say thank you Maria for reading Brand Desire. Thank you so much. I would, I'll open it up to others for comment on that. I could come back if somebody had.

Bertrand Godillot [00:39:34]:

There was something that was coming up to my mind as we, as we were saying, you know, what makes a. The reality is that the shift that Tracy and killing you were talking about basically from, you know, again, I want to summarize this. From persuasion to invitation is very scary. Must be very scary. Must feel very scary for. For most of our audience, because otherwise it would be the. It would be the rule.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:40:11]:

I do have a thought. I mean, and to go answer that and go back to Adam, Adam, Adam, your thought and build on what Tracy had said is certainly there are going to be company leaders and brand leaders out there who are not willing to budge from the way it's been done out of fear or lack of autonomy within their organization. But I would say that by and large, it's just a lack of understanding of another way forward. I've worked with dozens of clients bringing this approach to them who have never thought about this way of doing things before. And as you started, Adam, when you hear about this, it makes logical sense. So when they hear it, they're like, well, that. Let's give that a go. That seems to be worthwhile.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:41:02]:

That seems to be a worthwhile. Let's see what you come back with. Because what do you have to lose by changing the way you go about marketing if all you're doing is better understanding your customers before you make decisions on how to invest your marketing dollars. Dollars. So, first of all, that, that's, that's an important thing to think about. You're doing this already. How about doing it slightly differently in a way that's proven by behavioral science to be more effective? But the other thing is you're not going to win over everybody all the time. I mean, there are brands out there that have systemically changed either their company or the way their industry operates.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:41:41]:

Think about a brand like Chewy. Chewy. I don't know if you guys get Chewy in. Well, I'm the only one in the US Here, so does anybody as a brand? No. Okay. Chewy is a brand. It's an online brand that distributes pet food and other pet supplies, and they have fundamentally changed the dynamic of online selling for their products and services that completely appeal to what their customers care about. They are incredibly in tune with the mindset of a pet owner, and they go out of their way to provide a customer experience that caters to what pet pet owners would respond well to.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:42:27]:

And when I raise the question, whether it's in a LinkedIn post with a question or, or in other formats where I say, what brand has made you feel like you never want it to, you know, leave your life or your experience, What's a brand experience that keeps you Coming back for more, I get a lot of hand. A lot of people volunteer. Chewy as a brand. There are other brands out there who have done this. Zappos, Warby, Parker. These are, these are brands that have fundamentally said, we are going to change the way we operate as a company to prioritize customer understanding and helping them feel the way they want to feel. And they have earned business and loyalty as a result. So I buy the argument 100% that this is difficult to do for some people and for some organizations, but I don't buy the argument that that's the reason why you shouldn't do it.

Adam Gray [00:43:25]:

Oh, absolutely not. I mean, I think it's like in what we do, it's your job to evangelize this to as many people as possible because these seeds that you plant may well lead to them changing their behavior at some point down the road. But what I. Not. But in, in my travels, I see an awful lot of companies that, that many of these fundament, even large companies, many of these fundamental building blocks are not, not in place as you ideally would like them to be. So like you talk about your customers. A huge number of companies that I see don't really understand who the customers are and they're so scared of, of, of putting up a scaffold around what they do that drives people that are not ideal away and attracts people that are ideal to them. Because whether it's greed or lack of confidence, confidence, they don't want to drive people away.

Adam Gray [00:44:25]:

So, you know, we've got this moisturizer that is perfect for, for women from 20 to 50, but actually 15 year olds and 60 year olds can use it as well and men can use it as well. And so basically, actually, anyone, anyone that's got a dollar can can buy our product. Well, actually that, that's fundamentally unattractive to everybody. But I think that so many times brands fail to see what it is, as you said, fail to see what it is that their customers love about them. And we all know that when you go onto Facebook and you look at something and it says are you alive?

Bertrand Godillot [00:45:00]:

Click here.

Adam Gray [00:45:01]:

That's very unattractive. If it says are you old and bald and wear glasses, Click here. Then I can't help myself but click on the link because it seems like it's talking specifically to me. And I think lack of kind of bravery to say, okay, that's, that's what I'm looking for.

Tracy Borreson [00:45:20]:

I think there's another layer here too on what you're sharing, Adam, on the difference between segmenting people based on how they want to feel and segmenting people on their demographic profile because not all bald men with glasses have a desire to feel the same thing.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:45:43]:

Maybe.

Tracy Borreson [00:45:44]:

And, and when we jump to that assumption, that is also where it becomes very dangerous.

Adam Gray [00:45:48]:

But it's very difficult, it's very difficult to, to view those less obvious things, isn't it? And, and actually what I meant to say earlier was, was your, your point, Kevin, about how the behavioral science, you know, every sales leader in the world will tell you that people, people buy, was it. They make the decision with their heart and then they justify it with their head. The decision that they're going to spend, which absolutely is what you said.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:46:13]:

You know, that there's some truth to that. When you invite people into an experience with a brand benefit and invitation with a, with a tagline, a strap line, I have no belief that that alone is going to get people to buy something, but it's how you invite them into something so that they, and you.

Adam Gray [00:46:36]:

Know, oftentimes we say, you know, the reason I'm going to buy that is because I want to. And then you've got a big list of things that you then argue with people, okay, well, I bought it because of this, this, this, this and this. And actually that's not why you bought it. You bought it because you really wanted to buy it. And, and I think that that that's true for both consumer and business, to business products. People buy in that way, yet it often isn't kind of reflected in how companies go to market.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:47:04]:

Yes. So, I mean, I have a question for you all. You all posed the question to me about how do we get people to buy into this behavioral science rooted approach? I mean, I'm going to ask you all the question, what do you think it takes to convince people that this is, that this is, this is the way to go? And maybe convincing people is actually the wrong approach. Wait a minute. We don't, we shouldn't be convincing marketers of anything if they need to feel that they want to understand their customers better and, and cater to them better and appeal to their emotions. I mean, I, but I'm curious, how do we overcome the roadblocks from your perspective?

Richard Jones [00:47:51]:

I would, I would argue that, I mean, setting aside the, you know, global brands that are very successful, we all know, and maybe love, maybe not, but most companies you're dealing with are pretty small. They, you know, might believe they've got a brand, but, you know, not that many probably care about it. And actually taking a more imaginative approach down the sort of lines you're suggesting, Kevin could actually probably be a game changer for them. You know, rather than just sticking with the tried and tested, this is the way everybody else does it, you know, you've got nothing to lose. It's never, you know, it never ceases to amaze me how many small companies spend huge amounts of time meddling around with their fonts and their colors and their, you know, sort of strap lines and nobody, nobody gives a fig about it.

Tracy Borreson [00:48:48]:

I have a really great example. Okay, we'll go to Mark's.

Bertrand Godillot [00:48:52]:

Yes. Because Mark has provided us with one of his great comments.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:49:02]:

Just to, you know, I want Tracy to answer. I'm going to come back to Mark. But Tracy, what were you about to say?

Tracy Borreson [00:49:12]:

So like I have a company that comes in and cleans my house. I originally learned about them because I got a spray bottle of cleaning stuff in a gift basket that I received. It's like fully non toxic, locally made, really awesome stuff. And they just create the solution so you can buy the solution and make your own cleaning supplies. And so when I, I got this in like this cleaning so it smells so good, it's not toxic. I'm a 7 year old so like this is so good. And then they have cleaning services that you can also buy. So they built their business on like making cleaning green and smell good.

Tracy Borreson [00:50:02]:

Green smells good in local, right? It is not the cheapest, it's not the cheapest thing you can buy in terms of the spray. It's not the cheapest thing you can buy in terms of the people who come and clean my house. And I choose it because I'm in alignment with the things. And just like you said Kevin, we all, all actually buy that way. Maybe you're in alignment with the cheapest price of this because I don't really care about this, right? So I'm going to choose the cheapest thing because I got to clean a toilet. But like when it comes to how do we, whether we're talking about like brand strategy that makes sense, whether we're talking about social selling, right? Like we know this is a thing that can add huge value to this conversation. We just need to go back to how we consume. No one was, no one convinced me to buy that.

Tracy Borreson [00:50:51]:

You can't convince me to buy the high good smelling stuff if I don't care about expensive good smelling stuff. And you don't decide what I care about. So this is really just about us like going out. Like you said, I don't even like calling it I don't like calling it convincing. I don't like calling it persuasion. I don't like calling it education even, because, like, you can't educate somebody to choose something. You can share your knowledge, you can share your passion. And there are going to be people who get that, and there are going to people who don't get that.

Tracy Borreson [00:51:23]:

And the more widely you can share it through yourself, through digital channels, through your network of people, the more likely there are more people to get access to it. And then the people who are aligned can choose it. But not everyone will always be aligned.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:51:39]:

I agree. I agree so much with that, Tracy. You're not going to win over everyone all the time, but you're going to get the people who feel like what you have to offer was designed with them in mind. Whether. And the only way you get there in with scale is to understand the people you're, you're. You're trying to reach and to then design something with them in mind so that when they encounter it, it feels like a perfect fit. That's what we're going for here. It's, it's about, it's about a brand experience being purposefully, rationally designed, you know, rationally using the definition of rational.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:52:21]:

That's about doing things strategically and with thought and with purpose, or someone so that they feel, not irrationally, but intrinsically, intrinsically like they want to bring it into their life because it's going to make them feel good. That, that's an important thing that you can do. Now to get back to Mark's question, which is very relevant to the this topic, which was, how do I feel better on a Monday morning? The first thing you need to do is define what is it that you want to feel on a Monday morning and then design that morning to help you feel that way. So if you want to feel energized, perhaps that means you go for a run. Perhaps that means you put the right music in your headset when you start your morning. If you want to feel calm and quiet and reflective, you might go for a walk or put a different type of music in your headset as you sit down with your notebook on your couch with a warm cup of whatever you drink first thing in the morning. But brands can do the same thing. If you understand how people want to feel.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:53:30]:

The next question is, what should your brand say and do to help them feel that way and thus make their life better?

Tracy Borreson [00:53:40]:

So yes, Mark, the book can help you feel better on Monday.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:53:47]:

All right.

Tracy Borreson [00:53:48]:

You have to do some work, though.

Bertrand Godillot [00:53:51]:

Kevin and team. This has been great, brilliant. And Kevin, where can we find you? Where can we learn more?

Kevin Perlmutter [00:54:01]:

Well, I'm always on LinkedIn at Kevin Perlmutter and I'm also@branddesirebook.com My company is Limbic Brand Evolution and Branddesirebook.com takes you to a page on that same website. So everything I do is there as well. Brandesire book helps you understand what the book is all about and where you can find it.

Bertrand Godillot [00:54:22]:

Excellent. Well, thank you very much. I have to close this with a rule which is now we we now have a newsletter and you must know that in case you you you don't know give the show a highlight beyond the show insights and reminders of upcoming episodes. You may scan the QR code on screen or Visit us at DigitalDownload.live/newsletter on behalf of the panelists, thank you all and see you next time. Thanks. Thanks again. Thank you.

Kevin Perlmutter [00:54:57]:

Thank you.

Tracy Borreson [00:54:58]:

Thanks everyone.

Richard Jones [00:55:00]:

Bye bye.

#EmotionalBranding #BrandStrategy #Marketing #BehaviouralScience #SocialSelling #DigitalSelling #SocialEnablement #LinkedInLive #Podcast