The modern workplace is undergoing a significant transformation, marked by what Inez Odom and Chris Lewis call "The Silent Rebellion." This week on The Digital Download, we delve into this crucial shift with our special guests, Inez Odom, VP of Professional Development, and Chris Lewis, Founder of TEAM LEWIS. Together, they bring a wealth of experience in leadership development, global communications, and understanding the evolving needs of today's professionals.

Forget the old models of top-down management. Today's leaders must embrace empathy, foster hope, and understand the nuances of this rebellion to thrive.

Join us as we explore questions like:

• What is the "Silent Rebellion" and why is it happening?

• How has the pandemic reshaped the landscape of effective leadership?

• Why is servant leadership no longer a choice, but a necessity?

• What are the key strategies for instilling hope in your workforce?

• How can leaders adapt to meet the demands of this new era?

Inez's expertise in professional development and Chris's experience in building a global communications agency provide unique insights into the changing dynamics of leadership. Discover actionable strategies to navigate this new era and lead your team toward success.

We encourage you to participate actively in The Digital Download. Bring your questions and insights – we're eager to hear your thoughts on this groundbreaking exploration!

This week's Guests were:

• Chris Lewis, Founder of Team Lewis, author and co-author of The Silent Rebellion

• Inez Odom, VP of Professional Development, co-author, The Silent Rebellion

This week's Host was:

• Bertrand Godillot, Founder and Managing Partner of Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner

This week's panelists were:

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of DLA Ignite,

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

• Tracy Borreson, Founder and CEO of TLB Coaching & Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite

Transcript of The Digital Download 2025-05-02

Bertrand Godillot [00:00:01]:

Good afternoon, good morning, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. And welcome to a new edition of the Digital Download, the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn live. Now globally syndicated on IBGR on, sorry, tune in radio through IBGR, the number one's, business talk, news, and strategy radio network. Today, we're exploring the significant transformation happening in the workplace marked by what our what our guests call the silent rebellion. We have two guests today, Inez Odom and Chris Lewis to help us with the discussion.

Bertrand Godillot [00:00:53]:

Inez is VP of professional development and Chris Lewis, founder of Team Lewis. Together, they bring a wealth of experience in leadership development, global communications, and understanding of evolving needs of today's professionals. But before we, we bring Inez and Chris on, let's go around the set and introduce everyone. While we are doing that, why don't you, in the audience, reach out to a friend, ping them, and have them join us? We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience, and audience participation is highly encouraged. Adam, why don't you kick yourself?

Adam Gray [00:01:34]:

Hello, everybody. I'm Adam Gray. I'm cofounder of DLA Ignite. And, I I I wonder why, you introduced the the beginning as your your joke in Welsh today. Is that a joke? No. So I'm very much looking forward to the conversation here. This, this should be a fascinating delve into an important topic. And, welcome everybody, and hello to the team.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:00]:

Excellent. Thank you, Adam. Tracy.

Tracy Borreson [00:02:03]:

Good morning, everybody. Tracy Morrison, founder of TLB Coaching and Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite. You know what, you guys? It's like seven AM for me, but then I heard it's like 6AM for Inez, so I don't feel like but I'm kinda tired today. But I'm excited about this hope revolution because I believe it's going to bring energy to all of us. So I have my tea with caffeine in it, and I'm ready to go.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:32]:

Excellent. Thank you so much.

Tim Hughes [00:02:34]:

Tim. Thank you. Yes. Welcome, everybody. My name is Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO and, cofounder of DLA Ingite, and I'm famous for, writing the book, Social Selling Techniques to Influence Buyers and Changemakers. I was informed also today by my co partner, Adam, that I'm famous for other things as well. And one of the other things that I'm famous for is basically advertising other people's books.

Tim Hughes [00:03:06]:

So if you didn't know, if you didn't know that Inez and, Chris have written this is their latest book, The Silent Rebellion Becoming a Modern Leader through Kogan Page. So you can get it from koganpage.com or from Amazon.com or from good booksellers. Advert over. Tim was holding the book for those people listening on, radio.

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:28]:

Excellent. Well, that's, that said. This is said now. Okay. And myself, Bertrand Godillot, I am the founder and managing partner of Odysseus and Co, a very proud DelIgnite partner. But as I said, this week on the digital download, we'll speak with Inez Odom and Chris Lewis. Inez' expertise in professional development and Chris' experience in building a global communications agency provide a unique insights into the changing dynamics of leadership. Let's bring them on.

Tracy Borreson [00:04:01]:

Welcome.

Chris Lewis [00:04:03]:

Thank you very much.

Bertrand Godillot [00:04:05]:

All set.

Chris Lewis [00:04:05]:

Hello. Hello.

Bertrand Godillot [00:04:07]:

Excellent. Well, Inez, Chris, thank you so much. Chris, maybe, and you both actually could start with, having, having having you tell us a little bit about, you, your background, and what led you where you are today. Chris, you wanna start?

Chris Lewis [00:04:23]:

Sure. Well, thanks, Bertrand, and, and thank you everybody for the the opportunity. Inez and I have been working together for for quite some time in a in a foundation, and, this foundation is one of the largest employee directed, foundations in the world. And this works, in in so far as, every colleague in the foundation, every colleague in the company has their own budget, $2,000 or euros or, or or pounds, to invest in a cause, of their own choice, whether this be a, cause of the left, cause of the right, cause of the center. We don't care as long as it's a a charity, registered charity. And in so doing, we've now amassed 2,500 causes. And one of the things that stands out amongst these causes is the quality of leadership. And, I've I've I've written several books on leadership, and creativity as you'd expect from from somebody who's founded a business.

Chris Lewis [00:05:36]:

As you know, self made men worship their creators. They go off and they go off and write books, which everybody, they're always endorsed by the International Insomniac Society as being a cure all. And in this book, we highlighted, the brilliant levels of leadership that we were seeing in the third sector. And and you'll always find brilliant leadership wherever it's under the most pressure, where the things are under the most pressure. And we we saw that everywhere we looked in the third sector. They were people that are achieving in enormous amounts of value with very little resources. They weren't the biggest. They weren't making the most money.

Chris Lewis [00:06:20]:

They weren't employing the biggest number of people, but they were making a significant difference and moving the science and art of leadership forward. And, Ananez and I discussed this, and and we felt somebody should do something to highlight them because they weren't building a massive rocket and sending themselves or their family to space. They weren't building the the biggest or the best, but they were making a significant difference in their community, and they were they're extremely popular. Inez, I I think, we do we discussed quite a few of these before we went to go and interview them, but we picked we picked

Inez Odom [00:06:56]:

11. We have 11 different cause leaders that we featured in the book. And, indeed, one of the things that was so inspiring was really recognizing that COVID changed everything. And by meeting these leaders who were trying to manage nonprofits as varied as suicide prevention themes all the way to how to help disabled athletes or how to help folks who have learning differences, a a wide range. What we found was that each of these individuals really brought their heart and soul to the process, and and it ended up being, I think, an incredible dimension of the book because you have an opportunity to really you see the blueprint for modern leadership, frankly, in their stories.

Bertrand Godillot [00:07:49]:

Excellent. So so that's that leads to the first question. Thank you for that. So the title of this show is the silent rebellion, becoming a modern leader. What is the silent rebellion, and and why is it happening?

Inez Odom [00:08:06]:

And why is it silent? So so so one thing I will I mean, at the at the end of the day, it's a it's really about people that are quietly getting on with it and not looking to be in the limelight, but are ultimately really trying to affect meaningful change and really trying to be leaders who climb the mountain not to be seen, but so that they can see the vista and really help translate what that what's required. And I think in in the best sense, you're seeing these leaders that are bringing hope. You know, certainly in the in the words of one of my heroes, Desmond Tutu, hope is being able to see that there is light despite all of the darkness. And I think that is what good modern leadership is doing. It's bringing and engendering hope.

Tim Hughes [00:09:00]:

One of the things that I found I I've I've read the book, and one of the things that I found was that your last chapter, and, actually, I usually, I would come I would bring this up at the end of the interview. But I've never seen the word hope and leadership together. I don't think ever. But what we've seen is I think and and you pull the threads together about emotional intelligence, purpose, inclusion, and also about hope. So so what what is why are you bringing hope and and leadership together, and why is nobody else seem to be talking about this?

Chris Lewis [00:09:39]:

Well well, I think, another bit of advice as well on on this, which is if if you can have possibly avoided, never write a book when your coauthor is like Yoda. Mhmm. So she's constantly coming out with with very deep and philosophical, questions. And when when you're just trying to get on write a book, so Yoda can be very frustrating to to to to work with. I mean, very inspirational, very philosophical, but not always not always as punctual as you'd like when delivering the copy. So, nobody delivers

Inez Odom [00:10:10]:

Well well, now that there's baby Yoda. Right? There's there are all sort of iterations of Yoda. So but please continue.

Chris Lewis [00:10:17]:

Well, thank thank you thank thank you, Inez. There there'll be more profundity along in a minute. The the, the the the it's a silent rebellion. It's interesting. They call it a silent rebellion simply because the fact that it's not actually silent. It is making a noise, but no one's listening. And and this is one of the problems of our age, which is nobody's really paying attention. If you get on a British Airways flight, you need a galaxy of actors and stars from Hollywood to tell you how to put your seat belt on.

Chris Lewis [00:10:48]:

Yeah. And people otherwise, people are not paying any any attention, to them. And so so so that's one of the reasons we wanted to highlight these people because they are doing a great deal of work and they are making some noise, but they're not being listened to by people who talk about leadership. And, because a lot of those books are are are written by people who are in the business world writing about how to make money or how to lie down after a particular particularly strenuous thought. And so one of the things that we've got to to to to develop here is the capacity to listen to things which make less noise. And and and and they are more rewarding, but may not be as as immediately stimulating because another factor of these great social agents is their modesty. Every time we said we want to speak speak to you in a book on leadership, they said, are you sure you've not got the wrong email address?

Inez Odom [00:11:50]:

Right. A lot of humility among those that we met with. And in many ways, there are some who even that they were saying, I'm not a leader. I'm just getting this done. And then, you know, going, well, in fact, you are a leader.

Chris Lewis [00:12:04]:

So we were we were inspired by another great book, which is by Thomas Premuzique, called why do so many incompetent men become leaders. It's it's a brilliant book, and, I heartily recommend it, simply because the fact that it talks about the discussion of leadership often being around very confident people. And one of the things that we found so inspiring about the agency that we saw being applied in the third sector was that these people were often not that confident and but they were willing to try. And, their vulnerability promoted a great deal of loyalty amongst their team. And that's one of the features of really good leadership, which is that it's not afraid to be vulnerable. And if it is vulnerable, it tends to get a bigger buy in from its team rather than the AlphaZilla approach of climbing to the tallest structure in visible sight and and, and gesticulating at everybody from it. You know, this is a this is about serving the community. It's why we talk about servant leadership model quite a bit.

Adam Gray [00:13:13]:

So this is the there's something very soothing about the way that you're positioning this. You know, less of that rampant machismo and and screaming that we hear from so many leaders. But the the very nature of this kind of philosophy and mindset and and identification of these people means that they're because they're not hungry for the limelight and and hogging the limelight and screaming, as as you said, Chris, from the tallest structure and gesticulating it at at their audience. They have been not exactly overlooked, but they've they've not been seen. So how do we go about changing that? Because, you know, there's a million books out there on leadership, and all of them are saying you need to shout louder and more often and and and have bigger goals and dreams. And this is saying and it makes perfect sense that, actually, you need to be a person of the people. You know, you need to to to be like your team, and you need to shepherd them. So so how how do we bring that to the forefront?

Chris Lewis [00:14:20]:

Come on, Anas. You can you can

Inez Odom [00:14:23]:

I think I think I'm

Chris Lewis [00:14:24]:

not gonna fall into that trap? He just dug a big hole in front of me, covered it with

Chris Lewis [00:14:28]:

No. I

Inez Odom [00:14:29]:

I think

Chris Lewis [00:14:30]:

I think have a go at it.

Inez Odom [00:14:31]:

I've got it. I've got it. I've got this. Alright. I I I think we create spaces where people have an opportunity to step in and feel welcome. One of the quotes in the book is from a young woman named Jillian Johnson that I have the pleasure of knowing. She was at the time, I think, one of, 20 under 20 years old. I mean, she was literally 17 when she made this observation, but what she said was it's critical to look around and see who's not at the table and bring them to the table if you're in a position to do that.

Inez Odom [00:15:08]:

So I think part of it is how do we how do we make sure that we're extending the parentheses, you know, that that not only are we going deep but wide, that we're saying who else needs to be part of this discussion? And and I I think that's certainly a component. And then another huge component of the book is that we talk about the unexpected roles of the leader. And and it's the recognition that for many of us, our first example of leadership were our parents and and how did our parents lead. There are single parent families where that single parent is leading a family and and needs they are in a in effect a leader. So it's it's taking some of the traditions of what we've thought of as leadership and really, frankly, reshaping them and remolding them. And so as we talked about unexpected roles of the leader, everything from being a coach, being a parent. You know, at times, you just need to be present and caring and holding space for someone else. You're exhibiting leadership.

Inez Odom [00:16:14]:

So it's really I think it's also it's that fine line of of how you can exhibit equality that, amounts to leadership, and you are in fact a leader.

Chris Lewis [00:16:28]:

In the words of the great Charles de Gaulle, if you are not sat at the table, you are on the menu.

Chris Lewis [00:16:39]:

And and now

Bertrand Godillot [00:16:39]:

and clearly clearly some experience.

Inez Odom [00:16:42]:

Shout out shout out to another great movie, The Menu. Keep going. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Chris Lewis [00:16:47]:

You see what I mean? I'd never never share a phone box with Yoda. And so so they so this is one of the things that that there's all the people who are on the menu, and we have got to believe that we are more than crowds of mobs, herds of economic units to be herded to one place to consume or be consumed. People run on things which are not measurable by current management systems. They run on hope. They run on belief. They run on faith. And and and hope is the currency of of modern leadership. And if you're not representing that, then why would they come to the table anyway?

Inez Odom [00:17:29]:

Well, and and another powerful point that Chris always makes that that bears mentioning, hope is all about the future. You can't hope for the past. Past is done. So when we're thinking about hope, we're we're by its very nature, we're forward looking.

Adam Gray [00:17:46]:

So so I I thank you. Brilliant answer. I I get that this is, not I get. It seems to me that this is blindingly obvious the way that leaders should lead now and in the future, If only by virtue of the fact that the converse of this has got us to the absolute crap that we're in now. You know, we've got massive wealth inequality. We've got people worshiping false idols. You know, how many likes have I got on Instagram, and how much money have I got? And here I am on some famous person's private jet. And and and people are are both as individuals and as employees or team members within an organization, are being driven to to produce and to have a belief system that creates what will inevitably be poor outcomes, haves and have nots, people that have a voice, people that don't have a voice.

Adam Gray [00:18:48]:

And and this seems like like a way of of injecting wholesomeness into this whole process of leadership, where it isn't the strongest and the most vitriolic that win, but the kindest and the most able to garner true support of the people around them. So how can how can we move this from being a book that you guys have written into something which becomes a mainstream movement that people start to buy into where they're not only looking at the bottom line, They're looking at the the social and environmental and human impact of their activities as an organization.

Chris Lewis [00:19:31]:

Well, don't get me wrong. I'm not I'm not saying we shouldn't look at the the the bottom line. We should just understand the provenance of the bottom line. Provenance, you know, the the excellent cultures, excellent the the profits are just a byproduct of an excellent culture. But it's not the other way around. You can have a a terrible culture that still produces profits. It's just that it's not sustainable. And and and when we're looking through this period of time in this recession, probably the the the most difficult, most unpredictable, the one of the darkest times for a lot of people with all of the fear that's around, then you there's no management metric.

Chris Lewis [00:20:09]:

There's no balanced scorecard. There's no benchmarking which will allow you to look at the amount of hope or the amount of fear that's in your in your team. And so and so when we look at this, we have to understand that we live in the real world. And and and if you're building a company, which we have, and and and if you're in if you're making profits, which we do, and if you're doing that and you're putting it to some use and allowing other people to distribute it through employee directed funding, then you can call that marketing. You can call it philanthropy. You can call it internal comms. You can call it what the hell you like, as long as it's adding value. And this is one of the problems that when you become large and and bureaucratized, everything has to have a label on it.

Chris Lewis [00:20:59]:

Everything has to have a budget source, and you can't put hope and fear into a into a budget line. And so this comes down to the modern leadership where everybody has a to do list, and and I'm sure everybody on this call's got a to do list. And one day, your partner may even allow you to get to the end of that list, when they walk out the door having probably never seen you get to the bottom of the list. And and that's partly the problem is that there's a to do list, but there's no to be list. We are so orientated on left brain values. But leadership, inspiration, restlessness, reassurance, those are verbs and descriptions that go with the verb to be. You can't do inspiration. You can be inspirational.

Chris Lewis [00:21:44]:

You can't do restless. You can be restless. You can't you you you can't do reassuring. And and so so this we're not advocating turning the management systems on their head. We're just asking them to recognize where what the provenance of success is and how it becomes sustainable because we have to manage to where we are. We're after the we're after COVID. We're now going into another period of division, and leadership's job is to parenthesize, not just analyze.

Adam Gray [00:22:18]:

And and the truth is

Inez Odom [00:22:20]:

the the ant the antidote to fear is fellowship. That's one of the reasons why we have had even the return to the office. I mean, COVID, we were in incredible isolation, physical isolation, literal isolation. You can get you can help fear be less volatile by simply having an opportunity to be in fellowship.

Bertrand Godillot [00:22:48]:

So we've got a reaction from the audience, which is which comes with a question. In leading through what you call the silent rebellion, how can leaders authentically cultivate hope to unlock the true potential of their teams while also adding the discernment and courage to step away from individuals whose presence may be quietly toxic to, to that shared vision. Any reactions to that?

Chris Lewis [00:23:17]:

Brilliant brilliant question. Absolutely brilliant question, Meehan. Well done. That's a excellent excellent question. And the answer to it is very simple, which is that on the human body, there are two ears and one mouth, usually. And leaders would just I mean, you think it would work out that's the ratio in which they're supposed to be used. I mean, there there is actually a rather semantic debate about people with more than the average number of ears, which includes all of us on this call, actually, because Inez and I have discussed this quite a bit that the average number of ears is 1.99999. So, technically speaking, in management parlance, we have more than the average number of ears.

Chris Lewis [00:23:56]:

My my point is simply that they should be used in proportion to the mouth, which is they should all you gotta do is listen. So if you really want to cultivate the the the this rebellion, you have to listen to that. And if and it it sounds to me and that a lot of what you're experiencing is you're already aware that it's, pretty toxic. And I think you may have asked the question earlier on, which is also, what do I do if I'm trapped in a toxic culture, and how do I get the courage? The answer is listen to yourself first and foremost. And if that little voice inside your head tells you that there's a you're in a toxic culture, then it's telling you to leave. So you should obey that and leave.

Inez Odom [00:24:39]:

Well and because, also, when you think about it, it's sort of like being in a toxic work culture is like staying in a toxic marriage or a toxic love relationship. Ultimately, there are 8,000,000,000 people on the planet. The number is growing. Find someone else, ultimately, or make your own. But there's no reason to stay in something that is ultimately going to not serve you. And in fact, take your gifts and talents and either develop your own or find a place where those gifts and talents would be appreciated.

Chris Lewis [00:25:13]:

Anas, did we come into the wrong show? This is this is the marriage guidance counseling.

Chris Lewis [00:25:16]:

That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right.

Chris Lewis [00:25:17]:

That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right.

Chris Lewis [00:25:18]:

That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's the

Inez Odom [00:25:18]:

the marriage episode. Exactly. This is the, you know. I think it's the how to train your dragon edition. I

Chris Lewis [00:25:26]:

don't know.

Bertrand Godillot [00:25:26]:

We've we've got another another question for you, for you both. Should a team culture sorry. Yeah. Should a team culture, a sense of togetherness, come before a focus on profit and business growth? I think you partially answered to that question, Chris, but, maybe we have, restart.

Chris Lewis [00:25:46]:

Brilliant question from from from from Louis as well. Another really excellent question. And the and the and the two, it's not either or. They go together. They walk in hand. They walk hand in hand like star crossed lovers across a Misty Dewey field.

Chris Lewis [00:26:00]:

Mhmm.

Chris Lewis [00:26:00]:

Prophets and culture in love with each other always and for forever.

Tim Hughes [00:26:05]:

You know? Relationship show.

Chris Lewis [00:26:06]:

It is a relationship show. It it is. You know, this is what comes from writing a book with Yoda. I tell you, it's, you know, you just you just end up with with hope in your soul.

Tracy Borreson [00:26:17]:

Connected to the force.

Inez Odom [00:26:19]:

Yeah. Connected to the force. Well done. Well done. Well and and but in in all seriousness, you've also culture doesn't just happen. Culture in an organization is is should be curated. It should be supported. You think about things like, how are people sitting? Are they where are they having their lunch? Are they together? Do they feel included? Are you creating opportunities for fellowship? Are you tending to people's sort of the the depths of who they are in every way? Because we bring our whole selves to the workplace, in some cases, whether we want to or not.

Inez Odom [00:27:03]:

I mean, that the person that's showing up to get their job done may have been up all night with a sick child or a sick parent or what have you. So, ultimately, it's really being able to create a workplace culture where people feel seen, heard, and supported.

Chris Lewis [00:27:22]:

I think this is this is a really interesting point here because, you know, we have lots of management metrics, and we have a lot of certainty in senior management and boardrooms. A lot of certainty. And the only provenance of that type of certainty, unfortunately, must be mediocrity because we live in an age where you can't be certain about anything. And so if you're leading a group of people, one of the things to be able to demonstrate to them is that you've got a range of outcomes that you've planned for, contingencies. And this is why it's quite interesting when you read Thomas Premisek's book and you also, listen to to to Inez talking about planning for a range of contingencies is that leadership does tend to be rather focused on one outcome. And and there's a good way of illustrating this, which is to if you look at the contents of the average female handbag, you'll see that it's 43 items. 43 items is the average content. And with mothers, working mothers, which is the majority of our demographic, there's even more.

Chris Lewis [00:28:28]:

It usually has a three state ladder of of dinner for seven plus a Volkswagen Beetle in there. And so they're planning for all sorts of things that could go wrong during the day. And and and and that's why it's the greatest argument for diversity in the boardroom, which is not just a matter of social justice. It's actually a matter of business efficiency. If you've got more people worrying about different outcomes, then you can plan and lay contingencies for those outcomes. So somebody asked to ask the question in 02/2008 for the GFC, why did nobody see it coming? Was the boardroom short of data? Was it short of experience? Was it short of training? Was it short of power? It was short of imagination. And with with the with the pandemic, we didn't have the imagination to see that. Now this is one of the key things that we talk about in the book, which is that a lot of the third sector organizations, they have to live with this imagination for what could go wrong.

Chris Lewis [00:29:24]:

And and so your leadership is not just about the presence of the positive. It's about the absence of the negative as well.

Inez Odom [00:29:32]:

And and to that point, if I could add on that, one of the thing we discussed in the book, the whole Oscar model of coaching where you start with your outcome, but then you say, well, what's what's the situation that I'm in? What are my choices? What are the actions I can take? And and, ultimately, how do I review that that process? And to some extent, just as Chris was talking about, multiple outcomes I mean, who among us hopefully doesn't have various contingency plans for how you're going to handle any situation? But what's great about the Oscar model is that you can be quite analytical. You can take you know, we want to increase output at our organization by 30% within the next month, etcetera, and you can apply that model in a way that that's efficient, that's thoughtful, that's structured, and, ultimately, help problem solve for yourself.

Chris Lewis [00:30:29]:

I look like one, I'm just sitting here being like, yep. Yep. I agree

Tracy Borreson [00:30:34]:

with everything you guys say. And, like, what I feel like here, even even in this concept of, like, imagination is what we're lacking, how can we turn on creativity, I think there is when we look at it as if, like, we have to have profit or culture, there's, like, an underlying scarcity mindset that exists there. Right? Because we're we don't then put ourselves into the zone of imagination and creativity to say, like, I wanna have this, and this is who we are, and this is how we live our values, and this is how we believe in standing for that, and we want to make a profit. Right? I I think so something that's really interesting for me, I'm on a volunteer board, and the organization from the time I was introduced to the executive director to now, which is about seven years, has gone from a $60,000 a year charity to a $1,600,000 a year charity. Now they are doing public service with those things, with the money. Right? But, like, when you look at that from a, quote, unquote, revenue generation perspective, any business in the startup ecosystem would love to be able to make that amount of transformation in seven years. And when we have this connection to our why, this passion, and we believe that there's the possibility for this to exist and for money to flow and for people to get helped and and for all of these dots to be connected, it allows us to tap into that abundant mindset that I think is so crucial for that imagination, that creativity. And I think a lot of times in business, corporate, however you want to define that, we aren't being creative because if we were really honest with ourselves, we've only chosen one important thing.

Tracy Borreson [00:32:32]:

The profit is the only important thing. We haven't chosen another important thing. We haven't chosen that our employee experience is important. We haven't chosen that taking a stand for filling the gap we originally saw was important. And, therefore, we're always we'll never be as creative as the next guy because we're not looking at it from as big a picture.

Inez Odom [00:32:54]:

I I think Maybe it's

Tracy Borreson [00:32:55]:

not really a question, but just observation.

Inez Odom [00:32:58]:

Well well, no. Tracy, I think your observation is spot on because what you're really talking about is purpose. Right? That and with the Team Lewis Foundation, that is exactly what we've done, which is that each individual who's working at Team Lewis is giving given a sum of money to donate to the local charity of their choice. Through that very action, we are affirming what they believe to be purposeful. And and, ultimately, that makes us a richer community of people in which in which to operate because we're able to honor and find out more about all of the need that's out there and to see ways to really support these different very important charities and what they're doing.

Chris Lewis [00:33:48]:

Yeah. Don't get me wrong. We we also use the financial incentive because every time somebody directs the money to a charity, we give them the same amount in bonus as well to encourage them to do it again. But what's interesting is that sometimes they take that bonus and they double up what they've given to the to the to the cause. And so that leaves them in the same situation as a lot of philanthropists that want to play Solomon. And and this is the thing that of all of the things that leadership can be, it's not there to play Solomon. It's there to convene. It's there to bring people together.

Chris Lewis [00:34:22]:

And so if there's a lot of leaders out there that will be working out how they can be the smartest person in the room. The best advice I can give them is if you're the smartest person in the room,

Chris Lewis [00:34:32]:

you're in

Adam Gray [00:34:33]:

the room. In my room.

Inez Odom [00:34:34]:

Yeah. Go to another room. Exactly.

Tracy Borreson [00:34:39]:

This is why I hang out in this room, by the way.

Chris Lewis [00:34:45]:

I think it same leadership's job is to make everybody else feel like they're the smartest person in the room. That's that's that's the idea about it. Leaders speak last. Leaders eat last. It's a principle that should be there. The leadership should be pushing other people forward. Because a lot of the stuff that you can't measure is the stuff that people assess leadership on. And and if you want any any, example of that, how ask ask people how they would describe their parents.

Chris Lewis [00:35:11]:

And and and chances are they'll only come back with words to describe their parents, which will go with the verb to be, and that will describe them as leaders, as in their leadership model. Even if you say, you know, my father was a pain in the ass, you know, then it's still it's still something you can't do. You have to be

Inez Odom [00:35:28]:

it. Right.

Tim Hughes [00:35:29]:

So so you talk in the book about the leaders need to be entertainers, therapists, politicians, parents, judges, coaches. How how first and foremost, they're all things that you can't measure.

Chris Lewis [00:35:45]:

Mhmm.

Tim Hughes [00:35:46]:

And the second thing is how can you be all those things?

Inez Odom [00:35:51]:

Well, you you have to wear very large clothing.

Tracy Borreson [00:35:58]:

Well, I think actually, I'm just gonna like, because my brain ties it back into this concept of of the abundance versus scarcity. Right? If our brain says I can't be all those things, then I can't be all of those things. But for people who are in the practice of being all those things, they realize that there's this situation, and it calls for me to be a politician. And there's this situation, and it calls for me to be a coach. And there's this situation where it calls for me to be a parent. And I have that, like, permeability to be able to move. But also all of those things really from an underlying point of view have, like, empathy and caring at the heart of them and observation. Right? Observation of what does this situation call for.

Tracy Borreson [00:36:43]:

And And,

Inez Odom [00:36:44]:

Tracy, you just you you you said it perfectly. You used the p word permeability. I'll use another p word, which is pivot. I think that good leaders know how to pivot in the moment, and it recognized this may be the moment when I need to be pulling on other skills that I have. And so it's literally meant to be ways in which we need to be thinking how we can tactically lead the group best.

Chris Lewis [00:37:13]:

Yeah. I think we also gotta talk about the whole person here because the whole person comes to the to the organization, and the whole person can do amazing things. So, I mean, I'm sure there's some parents on this call, and there will have been times when you have been disciplinarian. There will be times when you've been coached. There'll be times when you have been stubborn and dogmatic. You have told Entertaining. Entertaining. Entertaining.

Chris Lewis [00:37:45]:

I I've never I'd actually never mastered that one.

Adam Gray [00:37:50]:

The so one of

Chris Lewis [00:37:51]:

one of the things I would strongly suggest is that there's a full range of there's full spectrum of skills in the standard human software version one. It comes with all sorts of abilities. And the the tragic system in the in our education is that because of standardized testing, GMATs and SAT scores and, and and things like that, we've only learned to measure one side of it and correlate that with success and that there's a right answer and it's the back of the book and please don't look. There's more than one right answer. And and and sometimes a sense of humor, for instance, is something you should take very seriously and because it indicates judgment, timing, terms of reference, how relaxed somebody's going to be, how they can diffuse a situation. Sense of humor is something that should be taken really seriously, but on no GMAT score or SATS test that I've ever seen, is it ask them to to make a joke?

Tim Hughes [00:38:48]:

Tell a joke.

Inez Odom [00:38:49]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:38:50]:

I love my seven year old's jokes, by the way. Also, he explains them all the time, which is, like, doubly. Yeah.

Chris Lewis [00:38:58]:

You're one you're one of the great because

Tracy Borreson [00:39:00]:

of this.

Chris Lewis [00:39:01]:

What you know, why do so many leaders have bold heads? Because they're always going, oh my god.

Tracy Borreson [00:39:11]:

Look how many leaders we have on our call today, folks.

Inez Odom [00:39:17]:

How many good leaders we have? Highly good leaders, very conscientious.

Bertrand Godillot [00:39:23]:

So so question. So assuming I I understand all of this, you know, and I and I feel like I want to move as a leader. I want to I want to change. What are the key strategies that that I should be you know, is there a cookbook? Is there or is it just left with, you know, me and my, my experimentations in that direction.

Chris Lewis [00:39:46]:

No. I think, you know, one of the interesting questions to ask somebody, particularly in the area of of creative provenance, is where are you and what are you doing when you get hit with your epiphanies, with your best ideas? You know, the damascene moment where the bush burns into flames and a big voice comes out of it. If that's happening, by the way, that's not for the session. It's probably for another session. If you get those great moments of inspiration, if you ask people about that, they you'd normally come back with three things. They come back with, I'm not in the office. I'm not with anybody else. I'm more I'm often on my own.

Chris Lewis [00:40:26]:

And then they say something really interesting, which is I wasn't even trying.

Chris Lewis [00:40:30]:

And

Chris Lewis [00:40:31]:

and this tells you that the the most powerful motivating moments come from within people provided they're prepared to embrace a bit of solitude, switch everything off, and wait for the inner voice to pop up and say, do you know what? You should do this. And that is an untapped resource. And in thirty years of asking the question from from a creative point of view, there are many people who tell you different things about where the where the where the moment happens. Sometimes it's in the in the bathroom. Sometimes it's in the gym. Sometimes it's walking the dog. Sometimes it's driving the car. Sometimes it's waking up in the morning.

Chris Lewis [00:41:10]:

Sometimes it's last thing at night. But nobody ever describes a situation where I don't have any good ideas.

Inez Odom [00:41:18]:

And and, Bertrand, based on on what you said, you know, one of the things that really comes up is this notion of competence follows preference. We get good at what we like doing. And so in many ways, if if someone is trying to cultivate their leadership, they should be reading books. They should be listening to podcasts. They should be looking at those people who whose leadership styles they admire and, frankly, deconstructing it. What is it about that individual that I find, you know, effective, what have you, and then ideally adopting those things and discarding what doesn't seem to work?

Chris Lewis [00:41:59]:

It's so funny because, like, I I'm

Tracy Borreson [00:42:02]:

pretty sure I've used the exact same example. So I'm a marketer, and I use that same example in marketing. Right? But if you if I could tell you to go be on Instagram, but if you don't like being on Instagram, your confidence is never going to be the way if you like having conversations with people in person and you go find ways to have conversations with people in person. I think there's this all of these things are just, like, so foundational for our ways of being as humans. And whether you're trying to manifest that in a leadership capacity or a marketing capacity or a social selling capacity or a parenting capacity. We have parents in the audience. Right? Like, it doesn't really matter. The practice is the same.

Tracy Borreson [00:42:47]:

And if we can tap into the fact that, like, hey. Maybe I have maybe I feel like I am doing this really confidently from a parenting point of view. Okay. Well, what is well, how am I interpreting my leadership role as different than that? Right? Where could I find the similarities, and start to build that confidence on the things that are related to how what I would do?

Chris Lewis [00:43:15]:

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Bertrand Godillot [00:43:18]:

We we have a great question from the audience, I think. Do you have tips for leading when the leadership above you might not be best? I think that that talks too a lot.

Inez Odom [00:43:35]:

Yeah.

Chris Lewis [00:43:37]:

That sounds like somebody from my own organization. It's I did pay them a lot not to ask those sorts of questions. I I

Inez Odom [00:43:47]:

I I set my AI up earlier to send that one in, Chris. Just kinda

Bertrand Godillot [00:43:51]:

Yeah.

Chris Lewis [00:43:52]:

Thanks thanks for that. Thank you. Yeah. We'll we'll we'll talk we'll talk afterwards. The, the the, when leadership above you don't forget that leadership is not something that just comes from the top. Leadership leadership can happen at any level. Some of the best leaders that I've ever seen have actually been operating at quite low levels in the organization. You can tell a lot when you go into an organization of how you're treated when you arrive in reception, for instance.

Chris Lewis [00:44:18]:

Lots of demonstrations of leadership can demonstrate leadership absolutely everywhere. And so sometimes, just that just because they're at the top of the organization, it doesn't mean to say they're the leaders. In in my experience, the leaders of the culture are elsewhere. You know, the the people you have at the top of an organization are often there or should be there because, they've got experience and knowledge and trust, but that doesn't necessarily make them social leaders. There's all of the social leaders are very active and tucked away elsewhere in the organization. So in answer to that question is that if the leadership above you might not be the best, be your best anyway. Do it anyway. And and and if they don't notice, then other leaders will notice you and probably either take you out of that organization or they'll raise you up in the words of the great Billy Graham.

Chris Lewis [00:45:07]:

Come on. I I I've teed that up for you.

Inez Odom [00:45:10]:

I know you teed you teed me up, but I wanna go somewhere else, which is that, also, if in fact you feel that the leadership above you is not the best or doesn't support you in the way that you would like, part of what your responsibility is is to really, I think, create a dialogue where you determine if you've got someone that you're reporting to that you're struggling with the structure. Find out oftentimes the reason we have challenges really center around expectations and communication. So make sure that you're finding out what are the ways in which maybe this person wants to receive communication. How do you work with them? How do you make sure that you're meeting them where they are? And, similarly, if there are things that you feel you need to be more successful, making sure you're translating and or or, sharing that with them as well.

Chris Lewis [00:46:06]:

Do you know what? I've changed my mind about Inez. I think she's alright after all. You know what? She it's it just that's a really important point now because sometimes trying to get to leaders is about a question of finding their channel.

Inez Odom [00:46:20]:

Finding the right channel.

Chris Lewis [00:46:21]:

Finding the might find the channel. Sometimes you can get them you know, they might they they might go down the pub. They they might be, on email rather than Zoom, or they might not be on Instagram. There might be a moment where you can just tap into them. But one of the things that I've never ever seen happen, and this speaks to the remote cultures, I've never seen anybody in a structure pop up on Zoom and just drop in on you. If you happen to happen to be in the office in the same space, you'll get more people being opportunistic and dropping in on you. I've never seen that happen on Zoom. Everything had there's no spontaneity.

Inez Odom [00:46:59]:

Well and and and just one one last point, which is, you know, we talk about this notion that, you know, assumption is the leading indicator of complacency. A lot of times, we just assume as opposed to, well, let me find out why this this sort of, leadership sort of structure that I'm in isn't working for me. Well, let you know, don't be complacent. Unpack it. Figure it out. Work it.

Adam Gray [00:47:27]:

So I I was gonna say, following on from Tracy's comment about, you know, I I'm not comfortable on Instagram and and, your comment about the different channels and and finding people and then this kind of spontaneity. So, we obviously work in the digital space. Everybody in the world is now, like, hyper connected together, and we've all got so there is now more than there has ever been the opportunity for me to see into the life of these inspirational leaders. However, they have to be present in this digital space to enable me to get close to them. And whilst nowadays with remote working and distributed working and multiple sites and all of that, what we haven't got is quite the same opportunity we would have had twenty years ago to just drop in and, you know, open door policy, well, I'll pop in and see Chris because I'm walking past his office. Actually, we we don't really get that, but we do get the opportunity to engage with these people, one to one irrespective of where they are and when they are, you know, different time zones and all of that. So, how can these inspirational modern leaders make use of this? And, indeed, how should they?

Inez Odom [00:48:48]:

Mhmm. That's a great question. And and, ultimately, having the we were having a discussion over lunch as we were sitting in the office yesterday, a group of us in the San Diego, US headquarters of team Lewis. And we recognize that that being in fellowship is so important. But to your point, how do you have that kind of authentic drop in moment or that authentic way to sort of find someone if you're finding them so sort of through social media. At the end of the day, that was exactly why we wrote the book. Because in the book, these are people that the various leaders that we highlight are not people whose stories you would normally find on Instagram or who are somehow accessible in some other way. So by creating what we called a living book, the book is replete with QR codes because we also realize that, sadly, we live in an age where people don't read as much.

Inez Odom [00:49:50]:

So what we really wanted to do was figure out ways to take these stories and allow people to engage literally on various through various media, videos, podcasts, etcetera, to to get access to the inner workings of who these individuals are and having them tell their own story. So my advice is that if there is because the people who are out there being highly conspicuous as leaders may not be the ones you want to emulate. Absolutely. Yet if you find someone who is a a leader that you admire or some, you know, we now live in an age where you can direct message them, and they might just message you back. And so I think it's a matter of using channels like LinkedIn, etcetera, to get to those people that you admire and to say, I admire you. You know, might I set might I have thirty minutes of your time on Zoom? Nothing nothing

Chris Lewis [00:50:50]:

Ex exactly right. And and, actually, you could spend a lot of time trying to be increase the surface area of contact digitally. But I but but to be honest, of of all the people I've ever worked with, the last thing they wanna do is increase the surface area of contact with authority. That's the last thing they wanna do. They really they're they're it's really not they're not thinking, how could I spend more time with the people that lead the organization? What's our principle is that if you if you encourage them to talk to other leaders, and those other leaders, they can draw water from anywhere. We don't care where they draw leadership skills from. In fact, there are better examples of leadership in the third sector that they might find more interesting. And particularly, the younger you get in the structures, the more you in you more you find cause being central to what they're interested in.

Chris Lewis [00:51:41]:

And so so this is one of those things where you don't have to come to me for the source of the light. You know, the light is all around you. There's a thousand candle points in the darkness, and I don't care which one of those you go to as long as you're drawn to those because it is dark out there. And there's a lot of people who are cursing the dark, and that our message is there's also a lot of people that are lighting the candle. So, you know, don't curse the dark. Light the candle. Brilliant.

Chris Lewis [00:52:07]:

Okay.

Bertrand Godillot [00:52:10]:

Excellent. This is far too short. I'm sure we can have gone for, for another hour, but, the the we we we've got to call it, to call it an end, unfortunately. Chris, Inez, thank you so much. Yeah. That was really great. Where where where where can we learn more? How how can we get in touch with you?

Chris Lewis [00:52:28]:

Well, Inez is appearing in the next Star Wars, to

Inez Odom [00:52:31]:

Exactly. Yeah. You you don't you don't you don't Yoda rocks a scarf is the title, but I I well, I

Chris Lewis [00:52:39]:

Yeah. Thank

Chris Lewis [00:52:40]:

you. I I and I've been I've been booked for the whole summer season by the British Insomnia Society for for a reason that they won't tell me. So I'm doing the entire season there as a red coat at the Insomnia Away Day, group there. So

Inez Odom [00:52:54]:

Or one can go to Amazon and buy the the silent rebellion, becoming a modern leader, or follow the team lewis foundation on Instagram, or

Chris Lewis [00:53:05]:

you can

Inez Odom [00:53:06]:

also just check us out at teamlewis.com for all those good things too.

Bertrand Godillot [00:53:12]:

Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. We now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode. Get the show insights, highlights, and beyond the show insights, sorry, and reminders, of course, of upcoming episodes. You may scan the q the QR code on screen, or visit us at digitaldownload.live/newsletter. On behalf of the panelists, to our guests today and to our audience, very, participative on the audience today.

Bertrand Godillot [00:53:46]:

Thank you all, and, see you next time. Thank you.

Inez Odom [00:53:51]:

Thanks, everyone. Bye. Thanks for

Tim Hughes [00:53:53]:

asking on us.

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