This week on The Digital Download, we’re learning how embracing neuroinclusion can be a game-changer for businesses. With years of experience in promoting neurodiversity in the workplace, Ed Thompson, Founder and CEO of Uptimize, has worked with organizations to leverage talent that thinks differently. He’ll bring his insights on how neuroinclusion can transform business outcomes, improve retention, and foster real innovation.

We’ll ask questions like:

* Why should businesses care about hiring neurodiverse employees?

* What steps can organizations take to create a more inclusive workplace for people who are neurodiverse?

* How can embracing different thinking styles lead to innovation?

* What are the common barriers to neuroinclusion, and how can they be overcome?

With Ed’s background in leading neuroinclusion strategies for top organizations, this conversation will reveal how fostering diversity of thought leads to measurable success. Don’t miss out on learning how this underutilized strategy could reshape your approach to workplace inclusion.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• Ed Thompson, Founder and CEO of Uptimize

This week's Host was -

• Rob Durant, Founder of Flywheel Results, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

• Bertrand Godillot, Managing Partner, Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner, and

• Tracy Borreson, Founder and CEO of TLB Coaching & Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite

Transcript of The Digital Download 2024-11-01

Rob Durant [00:00:01]:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of the Digital Download, the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live. Now globally syndicated on TuneIn Radio through IBGR, the world's number one business talk, news, and strategy radio network. Today, we're unlocking neuro inclusion for business success. We have a special guest, Ed Thompson, to help us with the discussion. Founder and CEO of Uptimize, Ed has led neuro inclusion strategies for top organizations. But before we bring Ed on the show, let's go around the set and introduce everyone.

Rob Durant [00:00:55]:

While we're doing that, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend, ping them, and have them join us? We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience, and audience participation is highly encouraged. Right. So with that, introductions. Adam, would you kick us off, please?

Adam Gray [00:01:18]:

Hello, everybody. I'm Adam Gray. I'm cofounder of DLA Ignite, And, this really is the nicest way to round out the week for me on the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live. And every time you say that, Rob, I just think it's amazing that we've we've been doing this for so long. So thank you.

Rob Durant [00:01:37]:

It really is. Thanks for being here. Tim.

Tim Hughes [00:01:42]:

Yes. Thank you. Welcome, everybody. My name is Tim Hughes, and, I'm the CEO and cofounder of DLA Ignite. And I'm also famous for writing the book, Social Selling Techniques to Influence Buyers and Changemakers.

Rob Durant [00:02:00]:

Excellent. Tracy.

Tracy Borreson [00:02:04]:

Good morning, everybody. I am Tracy Borreson, a founder of TLB Coaching and Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite, where we care about marketing that works and just not doing marketing things. And I'm glad to be back. It's been a few weeks since I've been on the show, and it's always great to see your lovely faces.

Rob Durant [00:02:23]:

It's good to have you back, Tracy.Bertrand.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:29]:

Hi, everyone. I am the newbie on that call, based in France, and very proud DLA Ignite partner. I'm the founder and managing director of Odysseus & Co, and we work with customers to create more conversations.

Rob Durant [00:02:49]:

Excellent. Thank you. And myself, I am Rob Durant, founder of Flywheel Results. We help start up scale, and I too am a proud DLA Ignite partner.As I said, this week on the digital download, we'll speak with Ed Thompson. With years of experience promoting neurodiversity in the workplace, Ed has worked with organizations to leverage talent that, wait for it, Adam, you'll recognize this, thinks differently. I had to borrow something from Apple.

Adam Gray [00:03:26]:

Yeah. And it's right and proper that you should.

Rob Durant [00:03:29]:

There we go. Let's bring Ed on. Ed, good morning and welcome. Hi, Ed. Ed, we suddenly lost your audio.

Rob Durant [00:03:49]:

Welcome, Ed.

Ed Thompson [00:03:56]:

Thank you.

Rob Durant [00:03:57]:

Ed, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you to where you are today.

Ed Thompson [00:04:06]:

Yes. Thank you. It started for me, a long time ago, and I had a pretty serious car accident right at the beginning of my career and a a major head injury. And at the time, I'd never heard of the word neurodiversity. And I was off work I mean, wasn't back full time for about 5 years. Eventually, when I was having done a bunch of consulting in the in the interim as I sort of tried to, you know, make something of my nascent, career, I found myself working for the CEO of a tech company in London with a mandate to sort of do the things that he wanted to happen, but nobody else had time for, which was he'd obviously seen something in me given that, you know, I'd I'd, I'd done quite well at university, although I'd obviously had this weird start to to my career. And and to my surprise, everything I I got stuck into was about people. That wasn't what I've done before, but that was what was keeping my boss up at night.

Ed Thompson [00:05:12]:

Particularly the idea of how do we build a 21st century workforce, and a sense that the team we had, to some degree, looked the same, thought the same, and and and wasn't quite it. So I got involved very much from a strategic boardroom perspective, sitting with the CEO in strategic diversity initiatives. How do we how do we change that? And having had some success with that, having, built some programs that actually went across the the London, tech sector, I started getting interested in neurodiversity at work because of my own experiences with a brain injury and because of neurodivergent family members. And that's the first time I heard the word. It happened to be a time where and we're talking about the 2016 ish, 2015, where some companies, a very small amount of companies, were starting what they called neurodiversity at work initiatives for the first time. And so Uptimize was born. Because once I'd done all that stuff, I want to do more of it. Uptimize was born with a with a sort of underlying mission to change the way the business world thinks about all of our brains.

Rob Durant [00:06:30]:

Thank you for that. Ed, I wanna start with a a foundational question if we could, please. I think I know what you mean by it, but I wanna make sure that we're clear for the audience. What do you mean exactly by the term neurodiverse?

Ed Thompson [00:06:47]:

Thank you. And I think that's really important because there are there are lots of misrepresentations, of this, actually. There are graphics you can see out there that say neurodiversity, and then it says autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia, etcetera, as if that's it, when that's not the case. Neurodiversity in a sense means what it sounds like it means. It means that humans have different brains. Everybody is wired differently. As, one neurodivergent writer said, I think quite memorably, you can't go to, you know, the British Museum or the Smithsonian and see the normal brain in a jar. Doesn't exist.

Ed Thompson [00:07:28]:

So everybody's wired differently. And in practice, that means we all have different cognitive functioning around things like how we process information, executive functions, things like how we plan our memory, and how we experience the sensory world. So to bring that to the workplace, that means we're all different in how we like to communicate, how we like to learn, which I think is probably the best appreciated of these. How we like to problem solve, and the sorts of work environment we enjoy. And you could put there, where we like to work, how we like to manage our energy, and so on. Some people do have less common traits that can lead to a identity and or a diagnosis as neurodivergent. I think that's best described in the words of one of our advisors, Nick Walker, who's an author and educator in the neurodiversity space as different from societal expectations of normal. And, again, so why is that important in the workplace? Well, there are many stereotypes of neurodivergent people that are negative.

Ed Thompson [00:08:47]:

But, actually, if you look at what neurodivergent people say about themselves, more than half of neurodivergent people say they think they're particularly unusually creative. 44% say they're, they have an unusual ability to focus for long periods. 40% say they have particularly good observation and attention to detail. 37%, excellent math skills. So, you know, they're not all saying, I've got all of these things. But the point is neurodivergence comes with what are known as flip side strengths. Neurodivergence is also representing about 1 in 5 people. And that means, really, not only is every organization neurodiverse, but any organization of any size typically has neurodivergent people too.

Ed Thompson [00:09:37]:

The problem is they can often have particularly strong preferences that aren't being respected or adjusted for when you simply have norms that have emerged when we haven't talked about neurodiversity that work for some people, which is why they're norms, but they don't work for for everybody. So to some degree, our premise is everybody benefits if we start recognizing that, that that what works for us isn't necessarily what works for others.

Adam Gray [00:10:06]:

So so how do how do businesses kind of adapt for this? Because, I I love the work of sir Ken Robinson, and he did famously some some wonderful TED Talks about this. And he said about how, the education system in all of the western world was developed based on the needs of the Victorian and industrial revolution. So, you know, basically, you need a a a manager that wears a top hat, and then we need a bunch of workers that have the following skill set sets because that's what the workplace needs. And for a 100 plus years, we've educated people in that image, and clearly the world is a very different place now. And, certainly, my experience of of being in the workforce, I've seen, people that have skills hammered into the wrong shaped hole because that's the norm. You know, it's easier to manage a 100 people that that act and look and behave the same than it is to manage a 100 people that don't. So so how how will as it becomes either, I guess, the diagnosis of or the the identification of neuro neurodiversity becomes more commonplace, or the number of people who are neurodiverse becomes greater, and it's difficult to know which of those it is. Clearly, it's forming a bigger and bigger portion both of the workforce in my company plus the people that we're selling to.

Adam Gray [00:11:35]:

So it's more important to take this into into consideration when we make any decisions. So how are organizations realizing this in in the real world?

Rob Durant [00:11:45]:

Yeah. I can give you

Ed Thompson [00:11:46]:

a few, a few examples. I think we can all, even though this is quite a a new topic, if you like, conversationally at work, it's not a new topic in the sense that humans are suddenly neurodiverse when they never were before, but we're just getting more understanding and and and awareness of it. Of course, why that's the case is a is is another story. I think we can all and I you know, I'm looking at all of you on the on the call. We we've all can probably think of times when we've been at work where something's just clicked with somebody else, and and somehow we've become sort of more than the sum of our parts working with them. But I think we can all think of times where the opposite has been the case too. And, actually, what should have been a strong team hasn't achieved what what it might do, and there's been some confusion. Some some some differences in in in, you know, how things are done that that haven't necessarily been, been resolved.

Ed Thompson [00:12:42]:

So so how we think about it. When we think about a sort of team level, Any team is neurodiverse in the sense that that team has different brains. But at the moment, most teams don't have any kind of awareness or sort of lexicon for that. So often that fact is primarily experienced as a negative. And we see that in teams all the time coming to us. You know, somebody discloses and says I am dyslexic or I'm whatever. I've got this particular need. And there's confusion, concern.

Ed Thompson [00:13:12]:

Sometimes there's discrimination. There's disbelief, right to the, you know, granular level of even we've done interviews with people in the workplace, not just neurodivergent people who say, you know, the way I like to do things just simply isn't appreciated or accommodated for. So that, you know, you have missed opportunities there. I think at a fundamental level, learning what neurodiversity actually means, learning some of those axis of difference that I laid out and then learning some tactics to share one's own preferences and to be more comfortable with other people having preferences different from one's own. That's the sort of foundation of embracing this in a team. And we've seen greater team synergy, team cohesion, and collaboration, you know, when that's the case. You can obviously apply this to, processes and policies too. We we have plenty of evidence of neurodivergent people in particular being marginalized and disadvantaged by hiring processes that are shaped for neurotypical traits and skills.

Ed Thompson [00:14:20]:

And so we've seen organization change those. A slightly more, this is back to people. But I think an interesting one as well is a sort of attitudinal shift that if we start to not just think, okay, let's embrace everybody because it's the right thing to do. But if we start leaning into this identity that, actually, we want to be a business where every type of brain can really thrive and contribute and we can really sort of untap that diversity of thought, there is actually a shift that we're seeing and also propagating, which is amongst managers, where we encourage managers not simply to, as it were, manage the process. And kind of to your point, Adam, you know, if all you're trying to do is just sort of get one thing done and you know Steve was quite good at it, you sort of think to yourself, well, I want 50 more Steves. But actually, 50 more Steves aren't necessarily gonna come up with the idea to say, how do we make this process better? Or even still, maybe we need a new process. So there is a sort of attitudinal shift that goes with this awareness of different brains and particularly the kind of creative power of that, both individually and collectively, where we would be in, as in our work, encouraging managers all the way through. You know, right from their interviewing somebody, they ask people a question.

Ed Thompson [00:15:37]:

And maybe somebody gets to the answer, but gets to the answer through a completely unexpected route. You know, to see that as something to embrace, not as something to say, oh, no. You didn't go through my steps. Therefore, you know, that's not gonna work.

Tracy Borreson [00:15:52]:

So Yep. I have a question about this. Because as soon as you say that, then what I think becomes, comes apparent to me anyway is that we're trained that way in school. So then when we get to the work environment, we've already been, like, pretrained that way. So from that perspective, like, I even share a personal story that I had a conversation with. So my son is 6. He's in grade 1. And I shared with his teacher when we started the year that I don't believe that there's one way to do anything.

Tracy Borreson [00:16:32]:

And so if you tell him there's one way to do something and he disagrees with you, I'm gonna agree with him. And I'm not sure she was super comfortable with that, but it was something that I needed her to know. But, like, how do you how do you see this as, like because I feel like it's a reprogramming. If If we're learning it in school, then we get into the corporate workforce, and it's a reprogramming. So, like, what type of things go into that reprogramming?

Ed Thompson [00:17:03]:

I mean, it's it's it's it's a reprogramming of, not just schooling, but, I mean, some of the the fundamental, things that you know, I have a 2 year old. So so as he starts to understand the world better, I mean, what are the things you teach kids? You treat people like you'd like to be treated yourself. Well, that doesn't work if you're a manager, actually. Because if you're a manager and and, you know, we could go through I could go through on the axis I laid out with all of you. For example, you know, how you like to communicate in different context, how you like to problem solve, how you like to learn, and so on. And I would get different answers regardless if any of you identify as neurodivergent. And that's the case in any in any team. So you're also kind of rewiring that.

Ed Thompson [00:17:49]:

But I think I think this is good, and I think that's what we do. I think that's I I don't think we shy away from that. This this topic in the past has either just been ignored, and there's been a sense that most things sort of work for most people. And if the odd person, you know, they don't it doesn't work for them, they'll put their hand up and tell us, well, we know that doesn't work. Most neurodivergent people don't won't tell you if if things aren't working for them for for for obvious reasons. And then, you know, some of the attention to it has been, okay, well, it doesn't work for some people. So, you know, if we have an autistic person or we have an ADHD, you know, what are all the things we need to do differently for them in order to not screw things up? And again, that, first of all, is difficult because everybody's different. There isn't a sort of one, you know, one size fits all, cheat sheet.

Ed Thompson [00:18:38]:

But it's also not getting to the reality that we all have a different brain to start with. So we don't shy away from that. I I I think we very much see people as, you know, getting a new set of goggles on their team. It's not a they're not diagnostic goggles to say, oh, I think you're this and I think you're that. It's just an openness. It's building a kind of conversational scaffolding we've never had that doesn't require what we call sort of big d disclosure. But just in everything, whether it's onboarding, whether it's meetings, whether it's, you know, how we work, remotely with each other. There is simply this base understanding, of these differences and the axis that, that I described.

Ed Thompson [00:19:22]:

And and that really actually changes a team and gives people a lot to build on. What's nice is, you know, we as Uptimize and that student business is what we do is help people, embrace this. We find we don't need to be there the whole time. So a lot of the time, you know, once, as we say in the UK, you know, the penny drops and people start to to to to see this, and and and and the goggles are on, if you like. They can often see themselves that maybe that what they're doing in a bit of their hiring process probably isn't the best and can start changing that.

Rob Durant [00:19:54]:

I wanna dig into the more inclusive workplace bit in a moment. But first, I wanted to share. A, friend of the show and former guest, Jess Flack, shares with us, great conversation. At least 50% of the tech sector is fortified by neurodiverse staff, but only 30% of special educational needs young people by age 16 get a level 2 qualification in maths and English as opposed to 70 plus percent of the non special educational needs public. And currently, only maths and English are counted as functional skills. I'm campaigning for digital as the 3rd functional skill. Digital can enable neurodiverse people to achieve more. Jess, thank you so much for that contribution.

Rob Durant [00:20:54]:

Thank you for checking in. It's great to hear from you again.

Tim Hughes [00:20:58]:

I saw a post on, LinkedIn the other day. Someone had had, 200 applications for a job, and he didn't know how to filter that 200 applications down. So what he decided to do was, the first filter was on spelling mistakes. So he basically filtered out anyone that made a spelling mistake, and and what he did was because the role was for a an American role, anybody that used s's rather than z's were basically filtered out. And someone one of the one of the responses on the the, of the LinkedIn post pointed out that he'd made a spelling mistake in his post. And therefore, what was his expectation? Should she just should she just scroll on? Or, and then there was a discussion about the fact that, you know, that that that, neurodiversity means that some people may make spelling mistakes.

Tracy Borreson [00:21:59]:

Or that your phone autocorrects a word to something that you didn't mean it to say. Yeah. But it I think it points out a really interesting way I mean, one, it it shows a way that I think is common. Right? So I think this is something that is trained. We think people who have perfect spelling are good, and people who don't have perfect spelling are bad. And it's an opportunity to open that conversation to say, like, I'm pretty sure Tim has pointed out spelling mistakes on my post, and I've fixed them. Right? Like, the and then are we taking that to the additional level of discriminating against that? Right? Because in that example and now we're discriminating against the spelling mistake. And is that actually what we meant to do, or did we do it because of ease of use, but we didn't really think about the ramifications of that?

Ed Thompson [00:22:52]:

Yeah. I I want to jump in here. Thank you both, and it it's really interesting. I I should say, first of all, that one of our main, script writers at Uptimize is dyslexic and by her own, estimation, not very good at spelling. So that's just something that, you know, I think a lot of organizations would say, oh, we need someone to write a script, and therefore, you know, perfect spelling is essential. Well, we actually see in her everything she brings to the scripts, and we deal with the spelling part. And I think that's a a microcosm of, again, maybe a sort of attitudinal shift here. Back to Adam's point, I think the sort of industrial revolution, kind of, you know, Taylorian approach, to work, coupled with the far slower pace of change in, say, the 20th century compared to 21st, meant that organizations, were attracted to generalists.

Ed Thompson [00:23:49]:

And to some degree, it's kind of like it it is following that school model. It's about sort of being quite good at everything. It's about not letting yourself down in any particular area. And to some degree, why not? You know, if you've got the lifespan of companies, it's 60 years. You to some degree, you don't want anybody to come and rock the boat. You just need somebody to come in and sort of do their do their little piece, and and that's fine. But 21st century is totally different. You know, the the lifespan of companies is, I think, under 15 years now and and and plummeting.

Ed Thompson [00:24:21]:

I think we need to start leaning into the best human skills we can find. Much more like a sports team leans into the best athletic traits. You don't have a sports team where everyone's sort of quite good at this and quite good at that. I mean, that doesn't work. You you you really try to take the best and and blend. And we get to the idea of the spiky profile, which in case, some of your listeners and viewers aren't aren't aware of, just to kind of lay that out quickly. If we were to take sort of, you know, 8 to 10 generic work skills that would be useful in most sort of knowledge work. Now that could be verbal communication, written communication.

Ed Thompson [00:25:03]:

It could be creativity. It could be personal organisation. It could be prioritisation. Things that are gonna be useful to to some degree for everybody. The generalist and potentially a neurotypical might be 6 sevens across the board. A neurodivergent person might be a 10 in creativity. And I talked to somebody from my book who said that he thinks he has 80 to a 100 ideas for every one idea one of his colleague has. And he wasn't there wasn't there was no boast there.

Ed Thompson [00:25:37]:

But that same person might be a 3 in personal organization. They might be a 2 in written communication. So, again, it's a sort of there is that, to your point, there is a sort of mindset shift here. You know, is that what we want? I would argue that is what we want, but we have to start believing that.

Bertrand Godillot [00:26:00]:

Alright. Thank you so much for raising this topic. I've got 3 kids, one of which has a very severe dyslexia. And it's been, it's been an absolute nightmare from school to to, to even work. And, yes, he's dictating to, to his phone the the messages that he's sending to me so that it's it actually comes in a way that I can I can read them, Because prior to that, I had to read them but loud to really understand what he was trying to, to tell me? And my experience is that the the reality is that at least in our country is that there is, you know, it ends up with building communities. So you will never hire someone different if you're not different yourself. And and and that's a missed opportunity. I fully agree.

Bertrand Godillot [00:26:56]:

But then the the question is really how do we, break that break these walls? And because there's a bit of fear into this, you know. There's the fear of the unknown. Well, we we don't know these guys. We we don't know how they behave. We don't understand this. So, therefore, it's scary. So we'd we'd better, you know, let them between them instead of trying to understand. And I and I'm really curious about the methodology or the way you approach this with people who don't believe in this.

Bertrand Godillot [00:27:31]:

So how do you already action, you know, making them consider things slightly differently? And therefore, you know, maybe reinsure them on the fact that, you know, it's not that scary indeed.

Adam Gray [00:27:48]:

Mhmm.

Ed Thompson [00:27:48]:

Yeah. It's a good question. I mean, we it it's it's interesting. I don't think we've ever worked with an organization that wasn't embracing this, you know, for the first time. And of course, you get very, very different foundational perspectives from from folks who we work with. There there's people who are neurodivergent themselves and never told anyone to think, thank God, this is happening. That's great. Including leaders.

Ed Thompson [00:28:13]:

And I've written about recently about how many leaders are neurodivergent, but, often, you know, they've had to mask to to to get where they are. But then, of course, to your point, you have people who say, well, what's this gotta do with me? I don't have any, you know, autistic people in my team. This sounds like a waste of time. So I think it's it's it's building the awareness in a way that really resonates with people, which we try to do again with this is not about what happens if you have somebody who puts their hand up. This is giving everybody tools and tactics to work with whoever's next to them. And I think people start to understand neurodiversity when we start to dig into things like problem solving, and they realize that actually, regardless of whether they think their team is all the same as them, they're not. So I think that's where they start getting a a a a sense of what this means to them. And this isn't, if you like, a a diversity topic that is simply about including a a marginalized group.

Ed Thompson [00:29:14]:

It is, but it's also much more about all of us. But then, you know, what happens while we do this, and what has been a truism of of all the work we've done is that in organizations that start to bring this in, more people start disclosing, more people start talking about it. And suddenly, you realize this idea you had of, oh, we don't have anybody like that here is nonsense. And you have this conversation fueled with the lexicon and the kind of the the the tactics and the sensitivity that we've primed people with. Where it's not necessarily everybody says, oh, I'm dyspraxic or you know? But you have a a a far more openness and conversation about different ways of of doing things. And including just to your point there about oh, again, back to the point about leaders, including amongst leaders. Amazing how many organizations we've worked with. And as it were, the COO says, actually, I'm dyslexic myself, and this is really important to me.

Ed Thompson [00:30:14]:

And I want to make this my big focus topic for, you know, 2025. And suddenly, the the manager who said, what's this gotta do with me? You know, feels a little different.

Rob Durant [00:30:27]:

We have some fantastic comments from the audience. I want to bring some of them in. Julia Harris shares with us, understanding the overlapping traits of neurodiversions helps us understand barriers and the mental health impacts of barriers on all humans. Amen to that, Julia. And we have Tanya Hague Coburn sharing, having a background in psychology with a past as being a teacher and now a leader, it's so important to recognize how widely neurodivergence is in the workplace, whether identified or not. So many of my female peers are now being diagnosed in their forties with ADHD, which has been life changing for them. The one size fits all strategy in the workplace is antiquated and, quite frankly, needs to be overhauled. Thank you, Tanya.

Rob Durant [00:31:27]:

We have a number of other, comments. Please keep them coming, and we will share them throughout. But I want to bring it back to Ed for a moment. Ed, I wanted to ask you, what are some misconceptions about neurodiversity in the workplace that prevent businesses from embracing it?

Ed Thompson [00:31:49]:

Gosh. I there's a lot. And, I I've written articles about this, and I'm gonna try and remember all my various, points, now. I mean, I think one we just talked about, the idea as it were, we don't have anybody like that here. I mean, that's not only misses the fact that every team is neurodiverse, it also just misses the fact that that means that then we're not all the same as each other and also misses the fact that, again, in any organization of size, you're gonna have neurodivergent people, as well. Another one I think is the idea of the sort of I call it the the the misconception of the neutral starting point. I think businesses learn about something they hadn't been thinking of, and they sort of consider where they am. Where they are is sort of neutral.

Ed Thompson [00:32:37]:

Okay? Well, we could be worse. We could be better. But actually, in any organization that isn't embracing this, and there isn't a positive conversation around it, and there aren't accessible accommodations, and there isn't an inclusive hiring processes, and there aren't, you know, transparent, policies, and there aren't managers who appreciate that how people like to get instructions isn't necessarily how they like to give them. There is a negative starting point. Most people don't know what neurodiversity is, and most neurodivergent people at work or many neurodivergent people at work are struggling, you know, because of it. I think there's also the the misconception that there is a sort of, cheat sheet per, if you like, neurotype. So, okay, what do I do if I have someone who's autistic? What do I do if I have someone who's dyslexic? And, you know, and so on. But, ultimately, that's nonsense.

Ed Thompson [00:33:36]:

And we've interviewed so many people in the community as part of our focus groups. And to some degree, everybody bucks the stereotype in some way, right, rather than, confirming them. So that's another misconception I think is quite important and actually relates to the the comment you just had, Rob, about, some of the, if you like, crossover amongst people who are neurodivergent. There's been a a a a great movement the last few years of people who are both autistic and ADHDers sharing their experiences and traits. Of course, they're not all the same either, but there's some particular combinations of of of of traits there. I think it's also important here to appreciate that neurodivergence, if you like, you know, cuts across every other demographic line as well. And being neurodivergent and being a black woman, given barriers in the workplace faced by minority demographics, can be more complicated or certainly very different from being neurodivergent and a white man.

Adam Gray [00:34:53]:

So you you said, Ed, at the beginning that neuro diversity is is not a series of, and I'll paraphrase, not a series of buckets. It's a it's a spectrum. And, you know, there are loads of people that are in loads of different different

Ed Thompson [00:35:08]:

Yeah. It's a galaxy, if you like.

Adam Gray [00:35:11]:

Yeah. Yeah. So and and also that, the norm potentially isn't actually even the norm. You know? So so so I I'm average at everything. That makes me average rather than the norm because there might be nobody else like me. And I'm not saying that I am average or don't have any neurodiversity or anything.

Ed Thompson [00:35:34]:

It's also contextual. Sorry, Adam. But it's also very contextual. The idea of sort of neurotypical is contextual. If you work in a team of neurodivergent coders, for example, not to sort of reinforce that stereotype and you have a very different thinking style, you are not neurotypical of that group.

Adam Gray [00:35:53]:

Absolutely. So so I guess that that my my question is,

Ed Thompson [00:35:58]:

I

Adam Gray [00:35:58]:

kinda like the the guy that's looking for directions, and he pulls up and he winds a window down and he says to somebody, can you tell me how to get to Main Street? And the person says, well, it wouldn't start from here if I were you. You know? So so so we're in a situation where there's there's a huge amount of baggage attached to all of this. Yep. And and a whole load of preconceptions. And part of that, you know, you you gave it, if you like, a definition or a description of what neurodiversity is, at at at the beginning. And I'm sure that for many people that consume this this content, that will be a good starting point in understanding this. But is do we run the risk of marginalizing people by putting them into these different categories rather than by saying, okay. I'm really good at this, but I'm really bad at that, and that's actually part of my strengths.

Adam Gray [00:36:54]:

So, you know, some people used to revise for university, with music playing. I never could. I needed quiet in order to be able to consume stuff and be able and I and I still do. Now that may mean that I I have some degree of of of neurodiversity there, or it may mean that I just need quiet to do stuff. And, and and I is it not more a case of identifying people's strengths and weaknesses in the way that they work and saying, actually, you're really good at doing this. You're really good at sitting in the middle of the office and directing traffic. I'm really bad at that. I need to sit on the outside of the office in a quiet room and do stuff.

Adam Gray [00:37:33]:

And I know that when Tim and I worked in a big corporate, although as a corporate, it was not particularly well known for embracing different styles, what it did do is I think it recognized that lots of people needed to do stuff in different ways. So some people worked in a hot desking environment, some people worked in quiet rooms, some people worked in pods, some people worked in the coffee shop, and that's how they worked best. And although that wasn't given any kind of specific labeling or type, you'd be allowed to experiment with all of these different areas and see what worked for you. And is that is that a a better goal to aim for than saying, okay. Well, we've got all of these different types. And it's a question, not a leading question because I genuinely don't know.

Ed Thompson [00:38:19]:

I think that so here's that. But I also would say I I I I don't think, and I hope it hasn't come across that. I would say everything I've said has been to say we don't approach it by saying we've got all these different sites.

Adam Gray [00:38:31]:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I I think that's more about my ignorance than about what you said.

Ed Thompson [00:38:36]:

Yeah. So I I think, the the the the the point of embracing neurodiversity is to go back to the beginning, to remember that this means that we all do things differently. Right? And and and, actually, that's where this idea and the phrase I use, the kind of conversational scaffolding around differences, which isn't around, oh, Adam, are you autistic or whatever? Or, oh, Ed, are you an ADHD? It's around being open and recognizing the fact that we do have these preferences around where we work, how we work, and so on. I mean, I think that's fundamental to embracing neurodiversity at work and normalizing differences that have previously been marginalized, stigmatized, you know, and and stereotyped. So I think what you're describing is absolutely what I think is a is is is kind of a a big part of this approach. And I think what you're describing there with the organization you worked at can be sort of, you know, elevated. So it's not just sort of what we sort of have a underlying sense that we're not all the same, but, you know, we can we can actually start celebrating that, and we can start having norms in, say, meetings or so that actually recognize that and that aren't about diagnostic labels, but are really putting that into practice or different career paths for different you know? So I I think what you're saying is absolutely absolutely right. And I think, actually, that's what, typically neurodivergent people, want.

Ed Thompson [00:40:09]:

We we we do have a situation, of course, which is where we are as humanity as we get our head around this idea of brain differences that, some neurotypes have been medicalized and have the both sort of identity hour of that that these are terms that never existed. Nobody appreciated that the dyslexic style even existed. I mean, some that's a good thing, but it's come with the negative language and the fact that diagnosed diagnostic processes are all based on negatives. And look at the terms ADHD and dyslexia, you know, and so on. But these have been repurposed now as identity labels. And so, you know, somebody who is neurodivergent often feels that's an absolutely fundamental part of their identity in the same way that, you know, maybe being gay is or being British or, you know, or whatever. So I think what we want to do, Adam, to your point, is to create this space where we all appreciate that we're all different and have the tools to do that. But also a a space that accepts and understands that some people are gonna want to share some of those elements of their identity as well.

Ed Thompson [00:41:25]:

And they're gonna want to share those not under pressure because everybody's screaming at them for being so slow with the with the spreadsheet, but in a way that anybody might want to share any aspect of their identity in order to feel that they're bringing their their full self to work. So I think we're on the same page as as as as how we think about it.

Rob Durant [00:41:48]:

I wanna bring in some additional audience comments. Leif Sorensen shares, we recently designed an online game with a unique approach by integrating a neurodivergent perspective into every decision making option. He goes on to say, the feedback has been inspiring. Players are coming away with not just knowledge, but a deeper appreciation for the strengths and perspectives of neurodivergent individuals bring to the table. And Carol Jean Whittington says, it all goes back to what we value as an organization and as a society. Again, thank you all for the comments, and please keep them coming. Tracy, I think

Tracy Borreson [00:42:37]:

you have a great day. To touch on. There's a comment, from Julia too saying labeling typical and divergent is required currently to help identify and discuss very evident inequitable outcomes in the way society is currently set up. I think this is an interesting point because I think a lot of time and specifically, we're talking about this today from a business perspective and how we discuss neuro inclusion in the workplace. But, Carol Jean is a very dear friend of mine and I've heard her speak very often about the level of masking that happens in the neurodivergent community, which then leads to burnout in multiple areas, but also leads to a misunderstanding, of how those people could be beneficial in a work scenario. So if you're attending creativity, but you're hiding the fact that you're 10 to try and be a 6 because that is what is, quote, unquote, acceptable here, then we don't really have the exposure to your gifts in order to even have the conversation about how to use them. And so in the neuroinclusion conversation, Ed, how much of this is, like, a a personal comfort? Or or even maybe self awareness is the beginning point of being able to bring your full gifts to the table because they do have value.

Ed Thompson [00:44:05]:

There is a bit of, meeting in the middle and something we do, with our platform, the the Upskill platform. We, provide sessions and guidance for neurodivergent employees. And, of course, it's very opt in because we recognize no 2 people are alike. So we don't say, oh, you're autistic. You need social skills training. That wouldn't work. But we offer things that, people have found helpful. They're all, you know, guided by our neurodivergent, facilitators.

Ed Thompson [00:44:33]:

And something we did recently was around what we call finding your niche, which is actually if you're going to get into sort of strategic advocacy as a neurodivergent person of who you are, what works for you, what doesn't work for you. To some degree, you know, you have to learn that first. And I remember, you know, going into the workplace, going into my first meeting, someone know what I was doing. You know, nobody tells you how it works. And, of course, your context shifts. Suddenly, you have an an understanding manager or suddenly you don't. Or, you know, you move job, you move team. So I think there's a there should be a a a in a sense, a a and this is kind of to Adam's point about, you know, where we would want to sort of get to.

Ed Thompson [00:45:16]:

I think we should all be going on that journey of trying to understand our own brain and what that means for our work preferences and evolving that sort of self advocacy toolset as we go in our career. And it was interesting. We're working with one of the biggest companies in the world at the moment about leadership and developing more neurodivergent leaders. And if, actually, what we found is they have lots of neurodivergent leaders already. And the neurodivergent leaders that they have absolutely embody leaning into the spiky profile. They're not people who's who've who've tried to pretend to be good at the things they're not good at. What they've done is they've been very, very good at advocating for themselves and their strengths and what those strengths can mean in their business around those peaks. You know, I'm really good at these things, and our customers appreciate that.

Ed Thompson [00:46:10]:

And they've learned also to get help and to advocate for that help in the areas where, you know, they're not so strong. But I think that's a a career long evolution for all of us. And, you know, I'm I'm the same. I had this I had a traumatic brain injury. I have a sensitivity to to to lights. My wife sort of is used to me. We sit down in a restaurant, and I say, I can't sit here. I need to sit over there.

Ed Thompson [00:46:38]:

Actually, let me sit over there because, you know, there's a candle or a spotlight on my head and I, you know, I I know I'm not gonna enjoy the meal. But nobody would look at me and think, oh, well, you know, how do we make Ed comfortable? But if you make me sit under bright lights, you're not gonna get much out of me.

Rob Durant [00:46:57]:

Ed, I am convinced neuroinclusion is incredibly important for business. But where do I start? As a business, where do we begin? Because I've also heard you say one size does not fit all.

Ed Thompson [00:47:17]:

Yes. Well, we've asked neurodivergent people the the barriers that they face. And, again, neurodiversity isn't simply about including neurodivergent people, but neurodivergent people experience the norms and the barriers in a sort of extreme way, if you like. So it's pretty I think we did pretty good place to start to understand what what, what they're experiencing. And, actually, it's also pretty proven that if you remove those barriers, it's good for everybody. And so being able for example, being able to organize your work in the way that you like to is gonna be beneficial for a so called neurotypical generalist who might say, actually, that's great. That's helpful if you don't mind me if I do it like that. And it's might be mission critical for a neurodivergent person who says, if you don't let me do it like that, I'm stuck.

Ed Thompson [00:48:10]:

But we've asked them, you know, what are the barriers you face? And the biggest barriers they describe are cultural. I mean, yes, they talk about physical environments. Yes, they talk about hiring processes. But the biggest issue is their teams just don't appreciate them, don't understand them, don't have sensitivity. The fact they might like to do things very differently. And often, there is a reluctance to share, disclose because of stories of people who've done that and haven't had a positive result. You know? And we interviewed autistic women who said they disclosed, and people said, oh, you can't possibly be autistic because you're female. You're married.

Ed Thompson [00:48:51]:

You know? I had a friend who disclosed at work who's autistic who was met with sympathy that this must mean he had a very short lifespan. Also nonsense. So, you know, we have to start with culture. We we did some we did some research last year with the CIPD in the UK, biggest, HR and a professional body. I mean, one of the biggest in the world. And we found that even in the UK, where I think there's the best, most sort of lively conversation about this in the world, and it's not my bias, we found that more than a third of people at work didn't know what neurodiversity even was. And my guess is that's double that in the US. So the idea of that mindset I can't remember which of your listeners, talked about that sort of mindset shift.

Ed Thompson [00:49:43]:

I mean, that's what we have to that's what we have to start with. And that's where, you know, some of the things we do, lunch and learns and and, you know, sort of foundational training to just get people to understand, well, what does this even mean, and why is it relevant to me? I know it it it doesn't sound sexy, but that is the platform that allows then more people to feel comfortable disclosing. As I said earlier, maybe more senior people start saying, actually, this is me as well. You start building this conversation. And that's when and we have this further, we we call it optimize. We we call it we our methodology are based on optimizing stuff, based on understanding neurodiversity, understanding how that plays out, and then understanding what we can do about it. You know, you can start applying that model, and that's a model that we teach. You can start applying that model to how you run your meetings.

Ed Thompson [00:50:32]:

You know, we're about to run a strategy off-site, how you run something like that. Your learning and development is a big one as well because most learning has never been delivered or built with different brains in mind. So you've got all these things that you can start getting stuck into. But to your point, Robert, about where do you start, you have to understand what it is and why does it matter.

Rob Durant [00:50:54]:

Excellent. And I think I heard you say that you actually have a a I'm going to use the wrong word now, a a a formula, a foundation for where organizations can begin?

Ed Thompson [00:51:14]:

Yeah. And it's really and I kinda again, goes back to the conversation Adam and I were having about sort of how do you approach this. I think, you know, I'll give you one one of these the the pieces of this. So if we accept that we are all working in neurodiverse context, maybe we hadn't had this awareness or really kind of lent into that enough. But we know everybody's different. We know lots of people who might qualify for a diagnosis as neurodivergent don't know it and haven't had access. Lots of people who understand themselves to be neurodivergent don't want to share. And, again, we know everybody's different.

Ed Thompson [00:51:53]:

You know, how do we operate in that context? It's not about saying, okay. Who's who and then what do they need? Right? It's actually about 2 things. And this is what we call the UP model. So part of our methodologies the and the application of it is what we call the UP model. And the u is for universal design, and the p is for a person centered approach. Universal design, which is, you know, a concept that's come from, architecture. The idea of building homes, building, you know, office environments that work for everybody. We can apply in the workplace.

Ed Thompson [00:52:32]:

And so we can start to think of what are all the things we can do, for example, you know, in how we run our interviews that are more likely to work for different thinking styles. Right? We're not waiting to say, oh, Ed, I had a traumatic brain injury. Alright. You go sit over there. You get more time. We're just doing it anyway. And that's pretty 90% of what we teach people. And then 10% of this is what we call the person centered approach, which is where and, again, this goes back to what I was discussing with Adam.

Ed Thompson [00:53:04]:

So universal design is gonna be an enormous uplift. But you're gonna get people who have very, very niche needs that maybe universal design doesn't cover. We were working with a police force, for example, and they had somebody as part of this initiative say, what I would like is a weighted blanket for while I'm in the police station. Now, of course, we hadn't thought of that. They hadn't thought of that. They didn't have 50 weighted blankets on the wall. But that was an opportunity for the person centered approach. And this person knew how they work.

Ed Thompson [00:53:41]:

They knew their sensory experience would be vastly improved by having this weighted blanket. So they didn't say, oh, no. We don't do that. They didn't say, we can't give you one unless we give one to everybody. They said, you know what you need. It's a $100. Let's do it. And that person, you know, started to be again more more comfortable and more successful.

Rob Durant [00:54:06]:

One more comment from the audience I want to share. Leif Sorensen says, why don't we use your model in a game to spread the word? He then goes on to ask the question that I ask all of our guests. Ed, this has been great. Where can people learn more? How can they get in touch with you?

Ed Thompson [00:54:26]:

Great. Again, thank you, everybody. And thanks. It's wonderful seeing such a such a an engaged audience. I've been I've been seeing everybody's comments and kind of, you know, nodding along and and seeing so much knowledge and insight and and enthusiasm here already. So thank you, everybody. I always like offering my own email, which is ed.thompson@optimize dotcom. If anybody would like to talk to me, directly, if they want to know more about us, optimize.com, I and we are also on LinkedIn, too.

Ed Thompson [00:54:57]:

So, you know, give us a follow, and vice versa.

Rob Durant [00:55:01]:

Excellent. Thank you.

We now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode, get show highlights, beyond the show insights, and reminders of upcoming episodes. You can scan the QR code on screen or visit us at digital download dot live forward slash newsletter. On behalf of our panelists, to our guest, Ed, and to our very active audience, thank you all for being a part of today's digital download, and we'll see you next time.

#Neurodiversity #BusinessInnovation #WorkplaceInclusion #SocialSelling #DigitalSelling #LinkedInLive #Podcast