This week on The Digital Download, we're discussing the critical role that language and communication play in business leadership. Felicity Wingrove, Director of Coaching and Communication at Inspirational Group and Chairman of Zen Communications, brings her unique insights into how leaders can harness the power of words to influence, persuade, and elevate their reputations.

In a world where leaders must communicate across multiple platforms, Felicity helps decode the complexities of communication mastery, showing how the right approach can transform how you're seen and heard.

Join us as we explore questions like:

* Why do so many leaders struggle with communication?

* How can leaders use language to manage perceptions?

* What are the common PR traps that even the smartest executives fall into?

* How can you master communication across different mediums—virtual, in-person, and on stage?

With over two decades of experience in PR and leadership communication, Felicity works with CEOs and C-suite executives to refine their communication strategies. Her work has helped business leaders around the world become more compelling and impactful, whether they're delivering a high-stakes speech or managing complex stakeholder relationships.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• Felicity Wingrove, Director of Coaching and Communication at Inspirational Group and Chairman of Zen Communications

This week's Host was -

• Rob Durant, Founder of Flywheel Results, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite, and

• Bertrand Godillot, Managing Partner, Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Transcript of The Digital Download 2024-10-25

Rob Durant [00:00:02]:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of The Digital Download, the longest running business talk show on LinkedIn Live, now globally syndicated on TuneIn Radio through IBGR, the world's number one business talk, news, and strategy radio network. Today, we're mastering language for leadership impact. We have a special guest, Felicity Wingrove, to help us with the discussion. In a world where leaders must communicate across multiple platforms, Felicity helps decode the complexities of communication mastery, showing how the right approach can transform how you're seen and heard. But before we bring Felicity on, let's go around the set and introduce everyone. And while we're doing that, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend, ping them, and have them join us? We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience, and audience participation is highly encouraged. Okay.

Rob Durant [00:01:09]:

With that, Tim, would you kick us off, please?

Tim Hughes [00:01:13]:

Hi. Yes. My name is Jim Hughes, and I'm the CEO and cofounder of DLA Knight. And I'm famous for writing the book, Social Selling Techniques to Influence Bars and Changemakers.

Rob Durant [00:01:23]:

Excellent. Thank you. Bertrand.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:29]:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good day wherever you might be. My name is Bertrand Gaudiot. I am based, in France, in the Kraftwath France. I'm the, the founder and partner of Odysseus and co. We're working with customers to generate more conversations with their target customers and the the ones that can influence them. And I'm and I'm obviously a very cloud and proud DLA Ignite partner.

Rob Durant [00:02:01]:

Excellent. Thank you very much.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:04]:

Bonjour.

Rob Durant [00:02:07]:

Adam.

Adam Gray [00:02:08]:

Good afternoon, everybody. I'm Adam Gray. I'm cofounder of DLA Ignite and Tim's business partner. And, yes. It's, I managed to get out for a little walk earlier today, and it's the last nice day, I suspect, before the winter kicks in. So, it's it's a it's a lovely way to round out the week.

Rob Durant [00:02:28]:

Excellent. Yes. This promises to be a lot of fun. And myself, I am Rob Durant. I am the founder of Flywheel Results. We help start ups scale, and I too am a proud DLA Ignite partner. As I said, this week on the digital download, we're going to speak with Felicity Wingrove. With over 2 decades of experience in PR and leadership communications, Fliss works with CEOs and c suite executives to refine their communications strategies.

Rob Durant [00:03:00]:

Let's bring her on. Hello. Liz, good morning. What are you doing?

Felicity Wingrove [00:03:07]:

Hi, everybody. It's great to meet you. Bonjour, Bertram. And hi, Tim and Adam and and Rob. Not ignoring you as well. It's just that

Adam Gray [00:03:14]:

No. No. That's fine.

Felicity Wingrove [00:03:15]:

Probably absent.

Adam Gray [00:03:16]:

It happens a lot, don't worry.

Rob Durant [00:03:19]:

Fliss, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you to where you are today.

Felicity Wingrove [00:03:27]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you, Rob. So my undergraduate degree is in the psychology of language. I'm a psycholinguist. So psycholinguistics is focused on the applied psychology of language. How do we use language very deliberately to create emotional connection, resonance, to understand and start to decode language in terms of its ability to inspire or to infuse, to move, and make change. That was gosh.

Felicity Wingrove [00:03:55]:

I got to the point in my bio where I just put 25 plus years, because I think you can stop counting at 25. It gets a bit depressing, actually. I'm probably nearer 30. But anyway, so I spent the last 25 years working. I've worked sort of FTSE 100 level. I used to run the national PR agency, and for 17 years, alongside other, other business interests, I run my own PR firm. Working very much with, with senior teams and helping them to capture their their very specific message and to share that with the people that matter the most to them. Recently, so just over this summer, one of my businesses has merged and and been acquired by the inspirational group.

Felicity Wingrove [00:04:34]:

So I'm now doing what I do, but on much more of a global stage, which is hugely exciting.

Rob Durant [00:04:40]:

Excellent. Fliss, let's start with a foundational question. In your opinion, why do so many leaders struggle with communication?

Felicity Wingrove [00:04:52]:

What a great question. Most people, most leaders are brought up to believe that we should speak to people how we would wish to be spoken to. We're taught that that's gonna engender empathy. It's gonna create this connection. But, actually, it's the worst advice that we can be given. We are wildly perfectly unique. We have several 100 filters that sit between us and the truth. And we need to speak to people how they would wish to be spoken to.

Felicity Wingrove [00:05:21]:

Most leaders will use communication skill, they'll learn presentation skills.

Rob Durant [00:05:27]:

All

Felicity Wingrove [00:05:27]:

that actually does if they don't have the ability to nuance or pivot or face their message to meet the needs of the people or person they're communicating with, All those presentation skills do is amplify the disconnect in terms of the miscommunication opportunity, the misunderstanding, or actually sometimes just the sheer, check and challenge in terms of rapport.

Rob Durant [00:05:52]:

So let's pick up on that. How can leaders ensure their communication is effective?

Felicity Wingrove [00:05:58]:

I think it starts with real self awareness, Rob. So from a leadership perspective, we need to start to recognize our preferences, our filters, and our biases without shame, just with curiosity. And there will be very many. They will be based on the cultural paradigm, the our education, where we were educated, in what, how long, with whom, our family structure, so many different factors from the external, but also lots of other factors internally that, that, that make up our personal communications DNA. When we start to recognize where we are, we are able to achieve the state of language hygiene. It doesn't sound particularly sexy, but language hygiene is just really, I'm gonna clean up the window on my window on the world so that what I see is actually much more authentic. I I'm not the Dalai Lama or Mother Charissa, communications wise, I am not yet perfectly clear, but what I am able to do is to make allowance and to recognize some of the filters. So, I talk about your truth not being the truth.

Felicity Wingrove [00:07:01]:

It's ostensibly absolutely your truth. I'm not minimizing that in any way, but there's so much more to it. You're looking at a 2 dimensional facet of a 3-dimensional, communicational message.

Rob Durant [00:07:15]:

So when a leader says, well, that's not what I said, and they're implying that the listener was at fault.

Felicity Wingrove [00:07:25]:

Yeah.

Rob Durant [00:07:26]:

What can we do to to, avoid that situation or handle that type of situation better?

Felicity Wingrove [00:07:33]:

It happens all the time, isn't it? And it's not just in leadership. How many times have you been walking through the supermarket and and you get one person bringing the wrong pasta sauce back and and and that the partner is saying, you never listen to me. Actually, I would always say that it's on you, 100% on you to make your message land. If somebody misunderstands you, that's your fault. That's that's on you. It's a learning stretch opportunity. Next time, position that message slightly differently. It's it's such a tricky one, isn't it? We we assume naturally that if somebody isn't understanding us, one of 2 things is happening.

Felicity Wingrove [00:08:11]:

Either they're doing that deliberately, and that's certainly not gonna build rapport, or actually perhaps they're not bright enough to understand the message. And that also does not make for a good working relationship. If we start to bring awareness to the fact that they are not hearing or seeing or feeling our message because we are doing the equivalent of speaking a different language. I mean Bertrand, it's, it's like me coming off to see, coming over to see you and and speaking to you very loudly and, you know, in a really frustrated way in English. And then assuming it's your fault, that you're not understanding every facet nuance. Now, I know that you're wonderfully fluent, but it, that there's an arrogance to that, which I find really uncomfortable. And actually, when you start to introduce senior leadership teams to it, they take to it beautifully. There's a recognition that actually, yes, this is on me, but that's a positive thing.

Felicity Wingrove [00:09:04]:

I can control how my message lands.

Rob Durant [00:09:07]:

Okay. One of

Adam Gray [00:09:08]:

the things that we learned very early on when we were training groups of people is that the choice of words is really important. Mhmm. And often the use of simple language minimizes the amount of ambiguity in what it is that you're that you're saying. And we learned that we would position a concept in front of the people that we were training, and they would completely fail to understand anything that was said because we'd we'd been very elegant in the words that we'd use used and and and, we positioned it from our perspective, that perspective of being an expert in the chosen subject. And the reason that we're gonna do business together is absolutely because you're not an expert. So therefore, there's that disconnect. So how can how can somebody that wants to begin to have a conversation with someone that that isn't on the same page as them start to level that playing field? Because we all, I think, have a a fear of saying, well, look, fliss. You know, that you know, and it becomes really condescending and and obnoxious when you speak that way.

Adam Gray [00:10:19]:

But actually, in many ways, you need to kind of bottom it out into the most basic language and the simplest of concepts and not make any assumptions about the knowledge. So how do how do we kind of how do we do that in a in a in a charming way, in a way that doesn't create more barriers?

Felicity Wingrove [00:10:35]:

Which a couple of things to pick up there, Adam, if I may. So, in terms of words, absolutely. They we have the dictionary definition, the denotation. We have the connotation of a word, which we as a society or or a group will collectively agree that's an expanded form and understanding. There's something called semantic packing or semantic density, which is what that word, the resonance, the emotional impact that word will have for you personally. And communicating can be a minefield. So, when you're giving a presentation to a client, yes, have the confidence to refine your message, avoid jargon, and avoid, hyperbole, make it make it more grounded. Be very mindful of the language that you're using, but also look for signs that that message is landing and cycle through preferences.

Felicity Wingrove [00:11:22]:

One of the one of the most divisive preferences that I've come across in in business terms when it comes to presenting or training or even briefing is around the amount of information that you or the other person needs to feel perfectly resourced to perform a task. So, some people have a very high information, preference. So, they will give you all of the belts and and braces and buckles and and and everything that they've got. Actually, if that preference doesn't meet yours, you're getting this tsunami of information, which causes psychological distress. Ditto, I've seen trainers from the front just litter one liners with an assumption that that's sufficient and it will land. And, actually, it's not the words per se, it's the the depth of information. If there is someone who's hungry for more, you're going to come across as quite, that they'll think you're slapdash. How has it perhaps that you don't have the the, the sheer volume of knowledge that you should have, that you aren't the expert that you purport to be.

Felicity Wingrove [00:12:28]:

So I think really, yes, words absolutely, and briefing and trainings, but also, I think there's just this need to recognize that we are all wildly different. And that there are times that we need to cycle through certain preferences, so that everybody can feel that they have been touched in the nicest possible way.

Bertrand Godillot [00:12:48]:

So, Felice, would techniques like storytelling actually help overcome the the language barrier so that we, you know, telling the story is actually maybe a way to avoid the traps? Or is it just yet another trap?

Felicity Wingrove [00:13:08]:

No. And storytelling is really powerful. We have from an evolutionary psychological perspective, we have evolved by sharing warnings and sharing wisdom by telling stories. That was our primary communication method back in the back in the early days. Storytelling now, our brain will still tell us stories. Where we have to be very cautious and conscious is if we don't, so going back to Adam's point about ambiguity, which was really powerful, if we don't create what I call scaffolding around our message, we, we risk this ambiguity and what happens is people will storytell for themselves. Now, they may storytell about our intent or where we're, where we're coming from, what, what we intend our communication, what we think about you, for example. And we see that particularly around gender.

Felicity Wingrove [00:13:55]:

So the work that I've done over the last over 25 years, I've done quite a bit of work around, empowering language. And there's a big gender divide. Women will tend to catastrophize more than men in their storytelling. So, I might say to you, and I may intend it in a positive coaching leadership perspective. I may say to you, how can we do that better? And you may take that neutrally. But actually, you may tell yourself a story there. How can we do that better? Well, they didn't think it's good enough to start with. And suddenly, you go into this catastrophic spiral that ends with, I can't do my job.

Felicity Wingrove [00:14:29]:

I'm going to lose my I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but it doesn't take very much to get into that spiral. So if I wanted that message to land and to be reliable and and for me to be confident that it would be understood, the scaffolding I would place around that would be a simple word, like, even. How can we make that even better? I don't have to add additional praise. I don't have to do anything, but create a space and, and room for someone not to story tell. So, yes, storytelling can be wonderful when we're doing it and when it's cycling through various preferences, so it meets a need. But we need to

Rob Durant [00:15:09]:

be wary

Adam Gray [00:15:10]:

In that example, the use of the word even was such a beautifully minimalist way of removing all of the negativity around that that comment. And I I I think that, you know, particularly in what we do when we work with with, clients is that we are we are trying to remove natural inbuilt fears they have to doing some of the things they need to do. And and, using techniques like that is an incredibly powerful way of doing it. So I I have I have made a note of that even.

Felicity Wingrove [00:15:48]:

Swipe and deploy, anything like that. Another great one is,

Adam Gray [00:15:51]:

Oh, no. With private. That's that's what I would say.

Felicity Wingrove [00:15:54]:

But there's another great one which is best. So if you're looking for someone to self filter and rather than give you the societally approved version of the answer, they're actually to give you something that matters to them. I think something like best or most, you know, what would be most useful for you right now, rather than what would be useful. If I ask you what would be useful, you're gonna give me a version of what you think you should say. By asking you what would be most useful, your brain will automatically go into a little selection process. And some of the insights that you'll share, and again, which I would love as your lead as a leader, as as someone, perhaps you're in my team, the insights you would share would be hugely valuable because they would be much more personal and more resonant to you. So it's just an idea of how language can be this key, sort of the Rosetta Stone almost that helps us to decode someone's genuine thoughts, feelings, and intent.

Adam Gray [00:16:48]:

So here's a here's a question, and this this may not be something that you wish to answer in in open forum. This is no. No. No.

Felicity Wingrove [00:16:58]:

I'm too nervous. He's a

Adam Gray [00:17:13]:

not at leadership within the organization, but, team leaders within an organization, is that they have been promoted, into that position often in spite of the fact they have no natural ability at doing this stuff. And I've been really lucky in that sometimes I have worked with and for people that have been brilliant at this and have done exactly the the the sensitive use of language that you have you have explained. And sometimes they are literally like a bull in a china shop. So why in 2024 is your way of doing this not the norm in organizations? Because clearly, one of them is is terrifying for employees, and the other one of which is empowering for and you can see your way getting the best from people and my way getting the worst from people. So so why isn't this universally adopted and and believed in?

Felicity Wingrove [00:18:08]:

And I don't know the answer to that, and I I wish that I did. I what I would say is that we I used to I used to say to people that I was a PR person. I didn't used to say to them that I was behavioral psychologist. Because if you said behavioral psychologist, everyone closed up, walked away, and you were kind of, there was a bit of a zone around you at parties and PR people, that was fine. I think the last couple of years, we have become very much more comfortable with the idea that an awareness of human psyche and awareness of how the brain can support or challenge our behaviors and our outputs has become much more natural. It's a bit like coaching, you know, you go back 10 years, coaching was always seen as a bit of a remedial thing. You know, you you wheel a coach in when someone wasn't performing or when they were struggling. Now, we very much perceive coaching as part of performance enhancement, you know, great athletes have coaches.

Felicity Wingrove [00:18:59]:

They're brilliant at what they do. They're world record holders. They have a coach in various areas, so that they can stay that good. I think we're getting to that point now when it comes to language and communication. It was very difficult to break the understanding that communication was just a set thing. It was like water. We all did it, we all did it the same, but if you didn't get it, that was on you. We're getting much more nuanced.

Felicity Wingrove [00:19:23]:

We're getting to this understanding of emotional intelligence. You know, when we talk about leaders, lots of team leaders, absolutely, they've been promoted because the tactical art of what they do, moving widgets, making widgets, delivering a service, they're really good at it. So they get promoted. But what we don't necessarily do is build the the framework around them to teach them to be great leaders, whether that's modelling it from, from up high or whether that's giving them that real kind of, you know, hands on training. And I have seen some brilliant examples, particularly of the modelling piece with, with some of the clients that I've worked with. Yes, they've brought me in from the language side, but actually, other behaviours are being beautifully modeled by their directors and their board and and. So, I don't know why we haven't, what I can say is that I have seen really, really positive and exciting examples of great practice and that will only spread. The more people who learn this, the more they will tell.

Felicity Wingrove [00:20:23]:

And it's a bit like Rob was talking about the water cooler moment when he and I had a, an initial chat. And and, actually, lots of the stuff that we were all talking about, they are these little nuggets that are just really easy to spread, to pass on. I get really evangelical about language and language mastery and taking command of our communication. And, yeah, I'm gonna get there. We're gonna get there. Just spread the word, Adam. That's what you need to do. No pressure.

Felicity Wingrove [00:20:49]:

If you could just do me.

Adam Gray [00:20:50]:

But but is this is this spreading? And the the reason to say that is that particularly in economic downturns, people tend to hunker down to do the stuff that they've always done. So it's all very well that that, you know, we need to be more sensitive and use more empowering language. However, we've got to do this, sell more stuff, create more brochures, whatever the the objective is. And I can't help thinking that that often these skills that are absolutely crucial to driving high performance are swept aside in terms of, as you said, those tactical things. So it is their more acceptance that that doing putting the right infrastructure and scaffolding in place is is the first step to being good at something?

Felicity Wingrove [00:21:33]:

Yeah. Absolutely. What I'm seeing is rather than this sort of I call it language mastery, and that's very deliberate. Because, again, when you're dealing with CEOs, they don't wanna feel that you're being bought in because they're not doing something well. I make it abundantly clear that what I talk about is that top 5 to 10%. They're already great. This is about them taking and becoming a master at what they're gonna be doing. What I see now is that rather than this language and communications coaching being a soft skill, how to be a better manager, actually what I do, I'll go and talk to a CEO about how he or she can deliver a really tricky message.

Felicity Wingrove [00:22:11]:

So, if you're going to be standing on stage and telling 2,000 of your employees that you're going to be making 10% of them redundant, unless you frame that message and deliver it with the kind of authenticity and empowerment that, that, that the team need, it will be your top 10% who will go because they can phone the competitor tomorrow and, and get a job. And your business that's already presumably shaky that needs to make that kind of sweeping cut is going to be impacted even more. So, when you're talking to a CEO and positioning it in those terms, it becomes a complete commercial no brainer. How does he or she stand in their power and really hold the space for that workforce to to to give them 6 months. I mean, ultimately, you know, it's not gonna be there forever, but I've I've been in those in those rooms when those conversations have been had. And and when it's been done really well, you you think, do you know what? I understand. I understand why they're doing it. Yeah.

Felicity Wingrove [00:23:06]:

I'll give it 6 months. Let's see how it goes, rather than I'm gonna phone your recruiter on my way home. So you've got that kind of commercial advantage there, but I think also, it's the idea of being very deliberate in your communication. That's when, if we're talking about influence and persuasion ethically, actually, that's when you're your most empowered self. That's a really compelling proposition for leaders.

Rob Durant [00:23:29]:

We have a question from the audience. Andrew Slessor asks, would that be down to a generational and cultural gap between senior management, which may have been with an organisation for 20 years, and someone who has rightly earned their promotion in the last 5 years?

Felicity Wingrove [00:23:47]:

I think I think sometimes we fall into very structured patterns of behaviour, and it can be more difficult to evolve those when you're doing what you've done and have done that for some time. You can find people become a little institutionalised. That's just how we do things around here. That isn't always the case. One of my clients has long standing in the organisation and he is one of the more dynamic and innovative directors in that business looking for new fresh ways of doing things. But then he has a commitment to learning and development. I think we do need to be aware of the fact that that, if you have worked in various places, you will bring different awareness and different energetic intent to things like learning and development. I don't know if that answers your question, Andrew.

Felicity Wingrove [00:24:36]:

We shall see when he comes back Andrew,

Tim Hughes [00:24:37]:

let us know. Let us know.

Rob Durant [00:24:40]:

Fliss, you made reference to emotional intelligence, and sometimes that's referred to as EQ. Many people believe EQ like IQ are fixed. Is emotional intelligence something that I can work on and further develop?

Felicity Wingrove [00:25:00]:

Absolutely. I mean, if you go to the gym, what can you bench press today? And if you go and you follow a regimen and you eat well and you train smart and you get perhaps a coach to support you, is it fair to assume that in a reasonably short period of time, you will significantly increase the weight that you can lift? I started running again. I used to be super fit. I had a couple of kids discovered Prosecco and long hours, and I've I've started running again. Now, am I running at the pace I did? I did 10 miles every day before breakfast. No. I'm I'm still on the kind of couch to 5 k. But will I get back there? Absolutely.

Felicity Wingrove [00:25:38]:

I'm probably not in a year's time, maybe in a month's time, maybe in a couple of months time. I think anything that we focus our attention on, we have the ability to improve. And emotional intelligence actually starts in my mind with, thank you, Angie. That's good to know. Emotional intelligence actually starts in my mind with curiosity. If we're able to be curious and we're able to approach, an awareness of, of our self and our impact without diving into shame and defensiveness, that is that first step in, in really becoming much more enhanced in terms of your.

Rob Durant [00:26:17]:

Curiosity can be hard, though. If I ask a question, it might look like I don't know the answer, and I don't want to look ignorant. How do you, as a leader, foster that in first yourself and then among those who report to you?

Felicity Wingrove [00:26:37]:

I think firstly, by modeling. It's so powerful to to show, to do. And Paulo Coelho says, the, the world has changed by your example, not your opinion. You've got to step forward and and do it. Right? I think, also from a leadership perspective, there is an onus on us to create psychological safety for those around us. To, I know the organizations that I've worked with and within that have been most successful, it's been okay to fail. As long as you're doing it in the right ways, you're doing it for the right intent and you're trialing something. And as long as you don't allow that to be the end, you you start again, you pivot, you change, you try again.

Felicity Wingrove [00:27:17]:

It actually becomes something that is really appreciated because you are then leading edge or cutting edge. If you're doing something for the first time, you don't always get it right. Ditto the psychological safety. I have recently joined, as you know, the inspirational group. So my my business, the ultimate advantage has gone in, so that we can have this kind of global platform. I've I've joined this big organization and all I'm doing is asking questions. They could easily be very silly questions. They can be about structure and intent and purpose and But I'm asking them all partly because I'm given the forum to do that and partly also because I recognize in myself that it's fine to ask those questions.

Felicity Wingrove [00:27:56]:

Someone somebody could say to me, you know, do you not even know? I don't have that inner critic that allows me to go into what I really should know. My answer to them will be no because I'm quite new. And and I really, you know, I want to learn to do it the right way. I think it's it's our mindset. I think it's the container that is is presented to us or is held by our senior team, and I think it's the modeling as well.

Rob Durant [00:28:21]:

A lot of what we do these days oh, go ahead.

Bertrand Godillot [00:28:24]:

Oh, sorry. In interestingly enough, Felicity, if I follow you, it's actually, the the the the the best way to find the right language is to actively listen to yourself first and and to the and and to the people in front of you. Right?

Felicity Wingrove [00:28:42]:

Yeah. Completely. People give us the sign when they've had sufficient. If I'm briefing you, and and I've given you sufficient detail as an example, you will tell me, as I go on, you will start to withdraw, you'll blink more rapidly, you might turn your head away, some physiological changes, you might cross your arms a little bit more defensively. Yeah, right up until have you ever been in the situation, chaps, when someone's just talking at you and you had all the brief, you know what to do, you just want to get on with it, but they're still telling you detail and you end up feeling, like, it's this tsunami, it's hitting you and it's just You want I don't know about you, but I kind of want to hold my head in my hands and I and you you do, you find yourself. You you're you're almost shielding yourself from from their words. And if someone has the emotional intelligence to be able to pick up on that, the recognition is stop and stop now. I might want more brief, but this person clearly doesn't.

Felicity Wingrove [00:29:34]:

So what you might do, is you might have some check-in points as you're briefing someone. Have you had sufficient? Have I given you enough that you feel resource to do this task? Do you need anything more from me right now? How can I best support you? You know, it's these questions that allow someone to check-in or out and let you know whether you as a leader have provided them with what they need.

Adam Gray [00:29:58]:

So how about approaching that from the other direction? So so we've all been in that situation that you described there. So, you've given me the brief and still you're talking, still you're you're giving me more stuff. And I've gone from the position of understanding what I think you want to now not being so sure and being overwhelmed by all of this stuff. And let's assume that, well, I think it's reasonable to assume that, if you, as the leader, cannot see that you're doing that to me and I'm starting to recoil and be overwhelmed by this stuff, you know, rather like, I've been doing presentations for 20 years. I don't need presentation skills training, which clearly I do because I've been doing it for 20 years. How how can you stop the leader? How can you take control of the situation? Because you continuing to talk to me and give me load me up with yet more facts it's actually impacting my ability to do what I think you need me to do. So how can I sensitively say, stop talking? Have I understood you correctly? Because clearly that's not the way to do it.

Felicity Wingrove [00:31:10]:

It's a really difficult one. It depends very much on the kind of relationship that you have with that leader and that leader's particular style. There are times that you may need to find a coping strategy and just let them finish. You know, if you if you're not able to have a boundaries conversation, and not everybody is. Either the person doesn't feel resourced or the situation doesn't allow, or there's a really bombastic leader who will take it, you know, very personally if you tell them that their brief is anything other than perfect. In an ideal world, you're going to have an open door that you're pushing against. You're gonna have a leader who is receptive, at which point, probably not while you're being briefed, but at another point, so it becomes less personal and confrontational. You can have a conversation that says, I really appreciate the depth and the density of the briefs that you give me.

Felicity Wingrove [00:31:56]:

It helps me feel really resourced. However, I can only hold so much information. Sometimes, when you share all the nuance, I can just feel a little bit overwhelmed. Would it be okay if you give me the the first half of the brief and allow me to go away and put that into into practice? And then if I need more, I can come to you. That's a that's a grown up conversation to have. And that's a respectful conversation that says, not necessarily what you're doing is wrong, but it says, this is what I need, and I have the awareness of that. Now, that's a conversation that in an ideal world would be would be received warmly by a leader. And and they would change their behavior, and everybody would hold hands, and they go skipping off at the end of the day together, you know, really content.

Felicity Wingrove [00:32:39]:

It doesn't always work like that, you know, we've we've all worked in the in the the real world, sadly. There are the worst case scenario, again, if you have this really bombastic leader and there's no opportunity for you to to really impact or it is just about having some some, some measures in place yourself where you can almost go into your head and and do a little bit of a daydream. Yeah. It's the kind of la la la, not a little bit. I've got a 6 year old, and she'll do that sometimes. But you need to kinda do it in your head because because it tends to trigger otherwise some of them.

Rob Durant [00:33:13]:

We have a friend checking in. William Shorten says, if you look at the base for most EQEI models, they generally focus on 4 foundations, regard for self and others, awareness of self and others.

Felicity Wingrove [00:33:29]:

Absolutely. Thank

Rob Durant [00:33:30]:

you for that, Will.

Felicity Wingrove [00:33:31]:

Thank you.

Rob Durant [00:33:33]:

Felicia, I wanted to say, these days, a lot of what we do involves virtual communication or

Adam Gray [00:33:40]:

Mhmm.

Rob Durant [00:33:41]:

Especially with social media, asynchronous communication. How does one practice listening and, emotional intelligence in that type of environment?

Felicity Wingrove [00:33:54]:

Well, you know, I did a training course quite recently for a fabulous client, and they were moving their customer service team away from telephone and email as their prime response mechanism. And they were moving towards WhatsApp for business and live chat. And they were doing that based on customer demand. But they had they had the commercial, awareness and and the insight to recognize that their customer service teams had never had the requirement to be quite so responsive, to have less time to consider and compose a response. And also, that that would show up the differences between each person's preferences. So I went in, I did the same training, but I did it four times so that I could get around each and every group of of of the customer service operatives. And we looked at self filters, that whole awareness of self peace. But we also looked at some of the cues that you can start to pick up.

Felicity Wingrove [00:34:49]:

We talked about the language that you can reflect back to somebody. It's much the same as if you got an email now. My my husband is ex military. So, I'm a a a the equivalent of a children's TV presenter, an 8 out of 10 enthusiasm. I wake up in the mornings assuming it's gonna be the best day ever. He's probably a 2 out of 10, and he looks like he wants to invade a country, when actually that's just his fingerprints and he's perfectly content. And we've learned each other's differences. But I recognize if I'm going to send him an email, I don't put his name, that sounds really romantic, doesn't it? Sending him an email, but it's running businesses and kids and all the rest of it.

Felicity Wingrove [00:35:25]:

It's really romantic. I don't bother putting his name or any niceties. I hope you're having a great day. I just put the one liner around the function. Can you pick up at such and such a time? Exactly. Yeah. I'll put a kiss at the end. Whereas, I know one of my colleagues that I work with, if I was gonna send that to her, I know that I would run the risk of offending her.

Felicity Wingrove [00:35:45]:

So what I do, I I will I will love bomb her to start with. I will I will check-in about an event that I know happened last night. Did the theater go brilliantly? You know, did you love it? You know, I'll ask about something or I'll check-in at the end and I'll thank her. It's exactly the same. It's a recognition of the personal nature of communication. Sometimes, we don't know the person that we're communicating with. So what we need to do is what we as marketeers have done for years, we need to cycle through different preferences. If you think about a web page, you have a compelling headline, you have a chunky paragraph of copy, you have 4 or 5 bullet points of detail, and then you have a click here for more information.

Felicity Wingrove [00:36:24]:

We should use that as a guide when we brief, and we should be looking very attentively for someone to tell us they've had sufficient. I'm very big picture. So you would give me the headline. I'm done. I'm ready. I want to move. I want to get on and do. Whereas, I've got colleagues and friends who would want the click through link, the colored Gantt chart, the the 20 page risk assessment, and they'd still have questions.

Felicity Wingrove [00:36:47]:

I guess what I'm trying to show and demonstrate today is that that's okay. We are all perfectly unique, and there is no ideal or optimum communication style. There is only an awareness that my truth is not the same as your truth, and that's great.

Rob Durant [00:37:05]:

Let's talk about high pressure situations. Mhmm. Leaders communicating in a high pressure situation. What are the key elements of persuasive and effective communication when everybody's watching because something has gone wrong?

Felicity Wingrove [00:37:24]:

Yeah. Absolutely. So, I mean, it comes down to integrity and authenticity above and beyond anything else. When you're in a high pressure situation, truth is always safer. Because if you are running filters to make sure that you're not gonna get caught out, that's and I know this from the PR and the kind of crisis and issues comms work that I've done, you know, over decades. That's the time that people will will there will be a misstep and, and, and things will be blown. The big thing from the leadership perspective is to, is to have grace for yourself and to recognize that communicating at a really difficult time is psychologically and emotionally really, really challenging. You are holding the space for a situation or a scenario that may be unplanned, that may be unfortunate.

Felicity Wingrove [00:38:10]:

You know, I've I've trained executives on how how do you stand up on a national stage, an international stage, and talk about a wrongdoing that has catastrophic reputational harm, or where someone has been hurt or even died. How do you, how do you share that news when every word matters? And the only template that you can really give is to be completely candid. You don't give more information than you need, but you speak the truth and you speak the truth with a really authentic voice. And you talk about what you're going to do about it or what next, you know, it just has to have some humanity to it. When you see people come up and and read statements under pressure, and they're really trying to distance, and they're talking about the the sort of in 3rd person, it feels really distasteful, particularly when the impact of whatever may be happening has a real human face.

Rob Durant [00:39:06]:

Is there, you've talked about, coaching and and you coach leaders. Is there something that the audience can walk away from today and do on their own without yet having a coach?

Felicity Wingrove [00:39:19]:

Oh, gosh. Absolutely. Bring and and it's about bringing curiosity. Bring curiosity as you're speaking to colleagues, to loved ones, look for a sign that they are not at ease with your message. It's a lot easier to find when rapport is being broken in a communication sense than when it's there. As a with someone with a with a background in behavioral psychology, my my sort of secret little passion, if I ever have any spare time, is to disappear off to my local supermarket at lunchtime during the week. And if you, it sounds very odd, but if you loiter by the cheese aisle or the red wine aisle, security don't move you on. They just think you're being really considered.

Felicity Wingrove [00:40:00]:

But you can go into peripheral vision and there are couples of a certain age. I go to Sainsbury's, other supermarkets are available, but I guarantee the conversations are not as compelling. You get married couples who shop together during the day, they're in their sixties and their seventies, They've been married for a really long time and communications wise, the gloves are off. There's no need for them on the whole to maintain that air of kind of politeness. And and I've heard some of the most incredible conversations. I speak on stage about some of this. And, and I share some of the examples and they're such such powerful reminders of what we all do. I talk about this one couple that I saw.

Felicity Wingrove [00:40:39]:

It was just after COVID. And we were finally allowed to go shopping together. So, everybody did, we were really excited. Why we did that? I've got no idea because it's never really a particularly joyful thing. But there was a woman who was briefing her husband on the pasta sauce that she wanted him to get and she was talking about this for more than 2 minutes. The detailed, don't go for this one, the tomatoes too too juicy. I want there to be some more substance. Don't go for that one, it's got too much oregano.

Felicity Wingrove [00:41:03]:

This color, that size, it's here on the shelf. And I could see, he was holding on to the trolley and his fingers, whether he realized or not, were gripping so tightly that his knuckles had turned white. And you could see that he'd he'd gone into himself, which is a response to psychological stress to overwhelm. And I felt awful, but I chuckled to myself because he came back into the room when she said to him, go on then. And he careered down the center aisle and she shouted after him, aisle 4. And off he went and you know, that he will have gotten all of the wrong sources, all of the wrong details. He'll have gotten the one with the wrong size tomatoes, and the wrong colour, and the wrong herbs. And she will have said to him, you never listened to me.

Felicity Wingrove [00:41:47]:

So if you are she, start to bring awareness to how you are communicating with the people around you. Take 100% responsibility for your message landing and get really curious about whether it did land. And if it didn't, why do you think it didn't? If you can have conversations with people around you that are quite candid, absolutely do that. And and that takes some more vulnerability to be able to sit with a colleague or with someone that you're managing and say, it really matters to me that I'm communicating and supporting you in the best way possible. What more can I do? It feels like a really vulnerable thing to do, but, actually, the insights that you will gain, it's a bit like going to the gym, the analogy earlier. What you're doing is you're bench pressing a bigger weight. You're getting more heavy weight in your communications acumen and skill and and your agility to be able to deploy that at will. And it is something that we want to we want to master because I've had the blessing of being led by 2 or 3 utterly exceptional leaders, the kind of people that you would walk over hot coals and broken glass repeatedly just to follow them because you believe what they believe and they're just blooming brilliant.

Felicity Wingrove [00:42:57]:

And in each case, they are masterful communicators. They they they made sure that their message landed exactly as they wanted it to and that we got what we needed from it. And I know how that felt. That was an amazing place to be. And I skyrocketed in my career under those kind of leaders. And part of my undergraduate degree, I studied the the writings and the speeches of Winston Churchill and the Martin Luther King Junior's of the world, but also, sadly, of Hitler. And, and, you know, the the Nazi, how did they subjugate an entire people? They did that through words. They did that through words over the course of of a period of time.

Felicity Wingrove [00:43:35]:

Just gentle subjugation, gentle dehumanization. So, yeah. I'm I'm evangelical about this. I'm I'm almost like, I think, that language could solve the world's ills in a in a similar swoop. No pressure, perhaps, if you can help make that happen.

Adam Gray [00:43:50]:

You you talking about the, the supermarket situation. Reminds me of the the funny quip about, the other day my wife said, you haven't heard a damn word I've said, have you? And I thought to myself, that's a funny way to start a conversation. But but absolutely, you know, it's

Felicity Wingrove [00:44:06]:

I haven't heard that one. I'm gonna I'm gonna borrow that if I may. I'll try to

Adam Gray [00:44:08]:

get It's mine. It's not mine. But it's it's a bit like the, Peanuts, isn't it? The Charlie Brown cartoon when whoever it is that's on the phone to Linus and he's holding the phone out is and you can't actually understand a word that's being said. And I think we all of us go into that glazed situation, don't we, sometimes when we're hearing well, we're listening, but we're not actually hearing anything that's being said.

Felicity Wingrove [00:44:38]:

Yeah. Completely. Listening is a is a real skill, and it's something that is taught. It's I I I am amazed by how many people go into leadership roles assuming that they're already good at this stuff, and yet they have never learned. They've never been taught. I think that our job as leaders is to check and to challenge those around us in a really kind loving way. We need to we need to ask people to communicate with us in the way that we wish. We need to hold the space for that.

Felicity Wingrove [00:45:07]:

We need to encourage those around us to continue to learn and develop. And, actually, we need to have some really honest conversations about what it is that we need, and, and how they can best serve us or meet those needs. Because otherwise, rapport is always going to be a challenge. And without that, you don't get that lovely sweet spot of a leadership team that's kind of operating with real synergy.

Bertrand Godillot [00:45:34]:

Just a just a forward looking question. Maybe do do you see emerging trends that, that leaders should be aware of to to stay really ahead of the curve on this?

Felicity Wingrove [00:45:47]:

Just I think more of an onus and an awareness that communication is changing and evolving. I think what we're seeing is a nervousness that communication is being used to kind of obfuscate, to confuse, to mislead. We're seeing that very much in the political arena. There have been lots of cases of of sort of elections. I think PR teams and PR people have had, in that side of the world, have been, have had a bit of a bad rap because they seem to be, again, using language to confuse, using PR to position and spin. You know, it goes back to the Alastair Campbell days and, you know, the the the Tony Blair after 1997 when it was spin doctors and all of this kind of phraseology. I think we're seeing very much more with this advent of citizen gen, citizen journalism, I didn't speak. We're seeing very much more the this rise of a desire for authenticity.

Felicity Wingrove [00:46:44]:

So when we see, I'm I'm interestingly, I'm seeing far fewer stories appearing on mainstream media. So the BBC and far more breaking stories, breaking on TikTok or on substack where people are actually paying for subscriptions. So the trends really are a reduction in the number and the vehicles of of forms of communication. But actually, almost the democratization of that. And that's something to watch out for because, again, whether we're gonna have some kind of bounce back, I think it's the beginning of the death of mass media because people have limited trust. Trust is the absolute core now, which is why we talk about authenticity again and again and again. Lose trust and you've lost your ability to to communicate, let alone have any resonance.

Rob Durant [00:47:32]:

What role does body language play in communication, especially leadership communication? And

Felicity Wingrove [00:47:41]:

how

Rob Durant [00:47:41]:

do we optimize for it?

Felicity Wingrove [00:47:43]:

Huge. And and partly, it's that authenticity piece again. So if I'm delivering a message vocally that is incongruent with my physiology, whether that's my face, my animation, my my actual physical stance and position. But also, the the the way in which I'm holding myself kind of energetically, that disconnect is gonna cause dis ease and a lack of trust, and you're not gonna build rapport. I would suggest when you're communicating, actually what you're looking at doing is taking command of your body language, so it doesn't distract from your message. It should reinforce it gently, but it shouldn't be the center of attention. It should just feel very natural. That's when you know that you are in a real state of of ease and what I would call in your personal power is when everything feels congruent.

Felicity Wingrove [00:48:36]:

People feel that they are getting the real you.

Tim Hughes [00:48:43]:

I remember being in a meeting with, Adam very early on early days. We had a client that, they wanted to be famous for, being a provider to the metaverse, and, they asked us to write some content. And then they said, yes, but what do you know about, the metaverse? And Adam turned around. I'm a salesperson, so I would immediately say, oh, we know loads of stuff about the metaverse. Adam turned around and said, I don't know anything about the metaverse at all. And and and you could see the the, people were saying, well, you know, what? And Adam said, well, the fact that I know nothing about the metaverse means that I'm the the perfect person to write the content because, you know, what what do your customers know? Well, they know nothing about metaverse. Well, they are. I have empathy with them, and and and I know how to try and explain it to them.

Felicity Wingrove [00:49:37]:

And the authenticity of that response would have been really profound for the client because they

Tim Hughes [00:49:42]:

Oh, yes. They went, you're right.

Felicity Wingrove [00:49:45]:

But they would have had they would have an expectation that that you would have had some bluster or some some polished sales pitch about yeah. We're and and and they would know. I mean, how many times have people had conversations with you, and they pretend that they understand, and they're, you know, it's almost like sort of the 5 year old mimicking you. And it becomes it's a bit like dad dancing, isn't it? It's the communication's equivalent of just watching that awkward dad dance. Bless my dad. He's great at lots of things, but dancing is not one of them. So, yeah, if you're able to be really authentic and really honest, but, Adam, I will say that takes enormous courage as well because admitting that you don't know something is not always a comfortable thing.

Tim Hughes [00:50:23]:

Reach him under the table to

Adam Gray [00:50:24]:

kick him. You know?

Felicity Wingrove [00:50:26]:

And, yeah, didn't he do well?

Adam Gray [00:50:28]:

Yeah. He did.

Rob Durant [00:50:29]:

Yeah. But I I

Adam Gray [00:50:30]:

I do think that that, you know, within within a working environment, having the safe space for that is is so important. And, you know, when we started the business, one of the things that we agreed was that it was going to be fun. You know, that that needs to be the most important thing. So we go through phases of doing this, but, I I tend to be a bit of a giggler. And we haven't done it on this, but we have on many podcasts where Tim has been messaging me things trying to make me laugh, and in meetings as well. And, and and it just it just means that you can relax and and have that fun. And I think that one of the things that's that's missing so often from the corporate world is the fact that, you know, we have to be professional. And actually nobody wants you to be professional.

Adam Gray [00:51:17]:

People want you to be engaging and entertaining and somebody that they enjoy spending time with.

Tim Hughes [00:51:22]:

Oh. And, you know, one of the things that we've seen

Adam Gray [00:51:25]:

yeah. And, you know, we we always say to to ourselves, you know, if we're standing up to to keynote at an event or something, the most important thing is that we are there to entertain. Yes. We're there to communicate. Yes. We're there to do all of those things. But people will leave going, oh, I really enjoyed that. Or, oh my god.

Adam Gray [00:51:41]:

They were dull. And we know which one we want to be.

Felicity Wingrove [00:51:44]:

Yeah. No. Well said. And I think that's it goes back to the authenticity piece, but also it goes back to rapport and connection and all of the peat and dud of the social world. I think if we can be, but but it's about being ourselves. You know, if you were trying to be really entertaining and funny and that wasn't who you were, then that would be done you for stepping into into that kind of energetic space. We we do learn more when we're having fun. We learn more when we feel safe.

Adam Gray [00:52:16]:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Rob Durant [00:52:18]:

Andrew Slessor adds, the key in anything is to enjoy it. Amen to that, Andrew.

Felicity Wingrove [00:52:25]:

Absolutely.

Bertrand Godillot [00:52:27]:

What a great Friday.

Rob Durant [00:52:32]:

This has been great. Thank you. Where can people learn more? How can they get in touch with you?

Felicity Wingrove [00:52:38]:

LinkedIn is my love platform. I've met some incredible people on LinkedIn, particularly during COVID, when we were suddenly sent into our into our back bedrooms and working from conservatories and whatnot. I connected with some incredible people who actually now are really good friends. So, if you want to find me on LinkedIn, I am the only Felicity Wingrove, which is a, quite a nice place to be and I would love to connect. I do share content on there. And otherwise, if you're interested in connecting, I'm with, Be Inspirational Group. So, beinspirational.com. Come and connect with us on there.

Felicity Wingrove [00:53:11]:

We're doing some great teachings, learnings, master classes, all sorts of free content. We've got a bit of a mission to kind of, spread leadership for a better tomorrow. And I rather like the artful vagueness of that because the potential and the possibility is wonderful. So, yes, do stay in touch. I'd love to. I'm with you chaps as well. I want to hear more about the guitars, Adam, and and Tim, more about the gramophone and the books and and Bertrand, we didn't really get much of a chance to have a chat about that. We'd love to just stay in touch with you.

Tim Hughes [00:53:38]:

Bread. Bread. He makes amazing bread.

Felicity Wingrove [00:53:41]:

Well, we we've already talked about the fact that we're gonna get together. So so Rob's coming over. We're gonna do tapas and and and champagne and things. It's gonna be lovely. I'm looking forward to it. Happy Friday afternoon.

Bertrand Godillot [00:53:52]:

Sounds really good.

Rob Durant [00:53:53]:

Speaking of communication, we now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode, get show highlights, and beyond the show insights, as well as reminders of upcoming episodes. You can scan the QR code on screen, or you can visit us at digital download dot live forward slash newsletter. On behalf of the panelists, to our guest, FLIS, to our very active audience, thank you all for being a part of today's digital download, and we'll see you next time.

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