This week on The Digital Download, we're diving deep into the importance of continuous leadership development with our special guest, James Kerr. A renowned leadership coach, consultant, and author, James brings a wealth of experience from working with diverse organizations, including Fortune 500 companies and government agencies.

Join us as we discuss questions like:

* Why is continuous learning crucial for leaders in today's dynamic environment?

* How can leaders identify their development needs and prioritize learning opportunities?

* What role can communities like the Indispensable Leadership Community play in supporting leadership development?

* How can leaders create a culture of learning within their organizations?

* What are some practical strategies for integrating continuous learning into a busy schedule?

Drawing from his extensive experience and the insights gained from creating the Indispensable Leadership Community, James will provide actionable advice and strategies for leaders at all levels looking to invest in their growth and development.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• Jim Kerr, Founder of Indispensable Consulting, and author of The Indispensable Leader's Handbook, amongst six others.

This week's Host was -

• Bertrand Godillot, Founder and Managing Partner of Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of DLA Ignite,

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

• Tracy Borreson, Founder and CEO of TLB Coaching & Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite partner

Transcript of The Digital Download 2025-01-31

Bertrand Godillot [00:00:06]:

Good afternoon, good morning, good day, wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of the Digital Download, the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live. Now globally syndicated on TuneIn Radio through IBGR, the world's number one business talk, news, and strategy radio network. Today, we're diving into the importance of continuous leadership development.

Bertrand Godillot [00:00:39]:

We have a special guest, Jim Kerr, to help us with the discussion. Jim is a renowned leadership coach, consultant, and author. He brings a wealth of experience from working with diverse organizations, including FT 500 Companies and Government Agencies. But before we bring Jim on, to help us, sorry, let's go around the set and introduce everyone. While we are doing this, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend, ping them, and get them join us? We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience. Audience participation is highly encouraged. So, Adam, would you like to kick us off? To kick us off. Sorry.

Adam Gray [00:01:35]:

Hello, everybody. Lovely to be here again. I'm really looking forward to this. It it's it's interesting. I think we're all we're all into music on the show. As you will see from Jim, he's got a huge selection of music behind him. So we've been talking about that prior to coming on. But on the business side of things, I'm really looking forward to hearing about this.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:56]:

Thank you. Thank you, Adam. Tracy?

Tracy Borreson [00:01:59]:

Good morning, everybody. Tracy Borysman from TLB Coaching and Events, proud partner of DLA Ignite. I mean, I will tell you guys, I learned a lot of things from music lyrics. So I'm interested to see how we can incorporate those learnings into our leadership journey, because I bet you there's things we can learn there.

Tracy Borreson [00:02:21]:

I'm excited to go on the journey.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:23]:

Certainly looking forward to this. Tim.

Tim Hughes [00:02:26]:

Thank you, and welcome, Tracy. My my name's, Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO and cofounder of DLA Knight, and I'm famous for writing the book Social Selling Techniques to Influence Bars and Changemakers.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:41]:

Thank you, Tim and myself, Bertrand Godillot. I am the founder and managing partner of Odysseus & Co, a very proud DLA Ignite partner and I'm trying to to keep us up organized on that call. As I said that this week on the digital download, we speak with Jim Kerr, drawing from his extensive experience and the insights gained from creating the indispensable leadership community, Jim will provide actionable advice on strategies for leaders at all levels looking to invest into their growth and development. Let's bring him on. Okay. Welcome, Jim.

Tracy Borreson [00:03:23]:

Hey. Welcome, Jim.

Jim Kerr [00:03:24]:

Cheers, everybody. Thank you. Looking forward to this.

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:30]:

Jim, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and, what led you where you are today.

Jim Kerr [00:03:38]:

Sure. Yeah. I started out as a consultant. Started my own practice back in I hate to I'm gonna have to mumble this, but 1992. I've I've, been doing it for a long time. I do a lot of, transformation kinds of work with larger firms, helping them, you know, redefine the way work gets done. I also do a lot of leadership coaching, and, I've written several books. Number 7 was the one Tim just held up.

Jim Kerr [00:04:10]:

Thanks for that, Tim. I appreciate the Sorry. Right there.

Bertrand Godillot [00:04:13]:

You're not a struggle.

Jim Kerr [00:04:16]:

So I was I was, thank you very much. But yeah. So, yeah. I I try to get out there and help people, you know, improve the way that they lead, how they inspire, engage people, and so on. So really looking forward to having a conversation with you all.

Bertrand Godillot [00:04:35]:

Okay. Thanks for that, Jim. So let's start with a foundational question. Why, why is continuous is continuous learn crucial for, for for leaders in today's dynamic environment?

Jim Kerr [00:04:50]:

Well, you know, leadership's not static. And as a consequence, it's on us as leaders to continue to push the envelope and stay with the times and and be able to meet, you know, new workforce expectations. You know, when COVID hit, suddenly the game changed and people weren't coming to the office every day. And we're still impacted by that. And a lot of leaders under the old paradigm are stuck, frankly. Right? So we've got to be able to think differently about these things. And I think leadership development and continuous learning are critical to helping these leaders get unstuck and learn the new way of of, like I say, engaging and inspiring others.

Bertrand Godillot [00:05:39]:

So, as as a leader, Jim, because we need a starting point. So, how can I, in the first place, identify areas where I need to grow basically, and prioritize these these, these learning opportunities?

Jim Kerr [00:05:58]:

Yeah. I I think it begins with self awareness. You've gotta be able to kinda look inside yourself and recognize that there's opportunities for improvement. And I think that's where leadership coaching comes in. A lot of times, coach can help identify some of those blind spots one might have. And it's through that process of self awareness and and maybe having someone who acts as an accountability buddy for you, that you can identify things that you wanna work on. And then it becomes, you know, a process of just building out a plan that's gonna help you get what you need to become better, whether it's a combination of coaching and learning and, self didactic kind of stuff. You know, it's all up to the individual to figure out how to get it go about getting what they need.

Adam Gray [00:06:56]:

So so I have a question about this. As a as a as a leader of an organization, if you're an employee within an organization, it's relatively easy to see what you might need in terms of coaching and development. You know, we've got a new product, you need to go on sales training, what whatever those things are. And that tends to be very knowledge and skills based stuff. When you're a leader within an organization, oftentimes those people are not at the coalface, but it's more about creating vision. So it's it's a a personal development type thing maybe, you know, helping you to crystallize your vision and think about what your dream should be and how you might articulate that to people. So I guess that that at what point does so so to to Steve Jobs, I can't imagine anybody saying to him when he was alive, you need a bit of help crystalizing your vision. Well, they'd only say it once, obviously.

Adam Gray [00:07:59]:

So so so

Tim Hughes [00:07:59]:

But but, Adam, there is a book called The $1,000,000,000,000 Coach, which was, written not by the not by Steve Jobs' coach, but by, people that, that accessed his notes after his death. And Steve Jobs did

Adam Gray [00:08:17]:

have a coach. And and

Tim Hughes [00:08:18]:

the reason why it's called a $1,000,000,000,000 coach is because that coach was coaching all kinds of people around, to see, what's his name? Smith from c from Google, Steve Jobs, and he was basically coaching all of those leaders in in Silicon Valley. Wow. Just throw that out there for you.

Adam Gray [00:08:39]:

No. That's that's really great because I I didn't know that. So so so how how does a leader discover if you are Steve Jobs, how do you discover that you need coaching? You know? Apple is now the most valuable company in the world. So Right. How how

Tracy Borreson [00:08:53]:

Can I throw in do you I mean, I think everybody needs coaching, but is it more of, like, the choice for coaching? Because I think a lot of people who reach that level also have, like, a personal investment in, like, continuing to up their game. So they, like, choose to get insights from other people, which is generally a coach. I don't know. We asked a whole bunch of questions there.

Jim Kerr [00:09:23]:

That

Tim Hughes [00:09:23]:

that's this is what it's it's all about, Jim.

Jim Kerr [00:09:26]:

Right. Yeah. No. I I I'll try to I'll try to tie some of this stuff together. You know, the the reality is people come to coaching from a variety of different, for a variety of different reasons. So sometimes it's a self awareness like, gee, I really do need an objective third party to help me out here. So they may seek a coach themselves. I've had situations where the board has said to the leaders, you need coaching.

Jim Kerr [00:09:55]:

And then suddenly, I get plugged in and now I'm coaching 7 people on the leadership team. So that, you know, that's a a way that people get it. Oftentimes, what's happening is and I just had a call yesterday with a a group where I think, you know, it could be a really good opportunity for for them to get some coaching. They're a startup. They're doing really well. They're, they're recognizing that it's hard to get along with each other, and they need somebody to talk with. And these are the founders of the company. So it it all kinda depends on the situation and what brings people to to getting the coaching that they need.

Jim Kerr [00:10:44]:

But keep in mind, and this kinda goes back to, I think, the point Adam was making that it's lonely at the top. So regardless of the company you're leading the organization, how many thousands of people that might comprise it, you still have that sense of being alone. And when you're at the tippity top, it's hard to show vulnerability for a lot of people. So a lot of the coaching that I'm doing with the top leaders are is about that. It's about being comfortable being vulnerable. And it starts with me. You know, we all we'll have the conversations. They're demonstrating vulnerability.

Jim Kerr [00:11:26]:

But I'm encouraging them to show that to their teams because it humanizes them. And it enables the team to give meaningful feedback. And once you can get a team that's actually, you know, trust each other, respects each other, and is willing to to say what's on their mind, the better the outcomes. You get the best thinking. I think Jobs is a great example because there's all these horror stories about how he didn't listen to anybody. You know? So he might have been one of those guys that needed someone to kind of open him up to listen to other people. They've got something to say here that might actually be really worthwhile. And also keep in mind in his history, he was gone from Apple for a while for for some of these reasons and brought back in.

Jim Kerr [00:12:18]:

So so, yeah, I mean, I I I think there's, there's a lot of value for anyone to have an objective third party who doesn't care about anything politically inside the organization. Just wants to make you a more effective leader. I think that's really an important thing to consider when you're thinking about, you know, getting coaching.

Adam Gray [00:12:39]:

I I think that, a political standpoint is a really important one, isn't it? Because they're not you know, an external coach is not subject to the dynamics of the organization in quite the same way as you as an employer or a leader are.

Jim Kerr [00:12:53]:

Right. Yeah. Because, you know, it's really hard for somebody inside an organization to seek somebody out inside that organization for coaching. And I see a lot of companies make that mistake. They they have, you know, leadership development group, and they have coaches on staff. And they believe that they can coach up their, you know, leaders that way. But the problem is those coaches are on staff. Those coaches have a political stake in the way things get done.

Jim Kerr [00:13:29]:

They have an agenda. You know? But an objective third party, someone from outside doesn't. You know, I don't have a horse in the race. You know? I I'm just trying to help the person I'm working with to become more effective. You know? And I don't really care who wins the argument. You know, I'm wrestling contest inside the org. You know what I mean? I'm just helping the person I'm working with, think about it from different points of view so that they can become more effective in in those conversations.

Bertrand Godillot [00:14:04]:

You said, Jim, that leaders are on their own, and I and I agree with that, of course. But then the question is, is there a play where actually putting together, different leaders as a community can, can kind of, help them open up because they they they are, in other words, you know, sharing with their peers, their peers, sorry, with their peers. Is this is this a way of kind of, you know, getting the conversation started, let's say?

Jim Kerr [00:14:42]:

I I think so. Yeah. I love the question and the observation. The reality is I think it behooves us as leaders to create a community of leaders around us. So a lot of what I do through my coaching work is I'm basically bringing a coaching program in house, and I'll have 10 or 12 people in the program that the leadership team has identified as as folks that are either high potentials who need to be built up to be on the succession plan or even themselves as a leadership team. You know? So, yeah, I think there's a there's definitely strength in numbers, and building a community around, a leadership team is really critical because, yeah, they're making the decisions day to day about what's going on in that organization. But the more they can the more we can build trust and understanding and respect, the stronger that team's gonna be.

Bertrand Godillot [00:15:43]:

We have a reaction from the audience. And Chris is just on the line what you were saying about, you know, having an internal coach is not probably not, you know, the best, the best way forward. Mhmm.

Tracy Borreson [00:15:55]:

I think anytime you have an external third party, it gives you the opportunity for just like that reset. Right? We I think I mean, I worked in house for a long time. I've been a consultant now for a while, and it's just like you get into the day to day of getting stuff done. And sometimes we don't realize that that stuff is not connected to our objectives anymore, but it just becomes habit. And having someone come in from a 3rd party perspective always creates that opportunity to reset against the objectives and say, this is what I'm trying to accomplish. This is what our team is trying to accomplish. How can we do that together? And, Jim, that led to a question that I had about I I think sometimes in this, like, digital landscape that we live in, it can sound like there's, like, one journey that is the journey that all teams should go on or that all leaders should go on. And you mentioned self awareness earlier in the episode.

Tracy Borreson [00:16:54]:

And so I'd love to hear a little bit more about how to create kind of that, like, customized journey for yourself as a leader, but also in how you create that ecosystem of leaders building their own journey together.

Jim Kerr [00:17:10]:

Sure. Now, again, great question there, Tracy. I I think, you know, the coaching work that I do, the very first step is self, assessment. So now we've got a baseline for where this person's starting from. And it it's really important to establish that baseline to create a bespoke leadership coaching plan for that person. So everyone is on their own journey. And we're all stars of our own, you know, hero myth. Right? So it's important for a coach to recognize the starting point and then discuss what are the things you're ready to do to make, you know, changes.

Jim Kerr [00:17:56]:

Because I, as a coach, I I can't change you. Only you can change you. Right. I I can help you. I can identify some things to work on. I can point you in directions that, may may make sense and expand your your thinking about a particular challenge that you wanna overcome. But at the end of the day, you've got to do the work. And if you're not willing to do it, then let's choose another thing to work on.

Tracy Borreson [00:18:23]:

Right.

Jim Kerr [00:18:23]:

You know? So, yeah, it starts with the self assessment, helps to raise self awareness. Some organizations, also ask me to do the 360 for each person, which gives additional perspective. And what's really powerful about a 360 where you've got input from different players around the individual that I'm working with is I get to see what their leadership team thinks of them, what their subordinates think of them, what their colleagues at the same level think. And what's remarkable there is incredible blind spots get exposed through this process. Because now I've got a self assessment that says I need these things. And then I'm listening to the input from, you know, their their colleagues. And, wow, what you think you're doing and what they think you're doing are 2 different things. And that's where we can actually start to really pinpoint.

Jim Kerr [00:19:24]:

Maybe we need to work on something here because you think you're you're coming across this way, but your subordinates think that way. You know? And I had a classic example. I was working with a woman high up in the organization, c levels staff member, and she she basically kissed up and kicked down. So the CEO loved her because she kissed up to him. But when I started to talk with the people that work for her, they couldn't stand her. She's a micromanager. She was dismissive, you know, disrespectful, you know, always pointing the finger and all that kind of stuff. So we got into it a little bit and started to you know, I started to talk with her about why do you think you strike out at the people you actually should be counting on? And she said, well, I get frustrated.

Jim Kerr [00:20:17]:

I'm I'm impatient. And she had longer hair. So I said, you know, do do you have those elastics that you put in your hair for yeah. Of course. You know? I go, you have one. You kinda keep it around your wrist. So, yeah. I said, you know what? Let's let's practice this.

Jim Kerr [00:20:33]:

Every time you get frustrated because someone, you know, from your team knocks on the door and is looking for something from you, and you start to feel yourself getting infuriated, snap it. And that's a reminder that leadership's about them. It's not about you. So when someone knocks on the door, they need something from you. You're there to help them as a leader. Right? So she did. She started to practice it. And literally within a few weeks of and, again, we meet every week.

Jim Kerr [00:21:05]:

The kind of coaching I do is a weekly commitment. But through that reinforcement and through her practice of snapping the the elastic, she was able to remind herself that it's not about getting frustrated and angry because this person doesn't know what they're doing. It's about her providing that individual what they need to be effective.

Adam Gray [00:21:27]:

So do you ever find in that situation so, you've got this this senior level person. She's sucking up to her boss, and she's a monster to all the people beneath her. And I'm kind of extrapolating what you said because you didn't actually say that.

Tracy Borreson [00:21:42]:

In more dramatic words.

Adam Gray [00:21:44]:

And and and you you you did conduct some interviews and the boss thinks, oh, shit. This person's absolutely fantastic. The people underneath think this person is the worst person I've ever worked for. Mhmm. And when you deliver that feedback, do you ever get an instance where when you deliver that to someone, they're they're almost in tears as a result of this?

Jim Kerr [00:22:02]:

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. There's an emotional reaction, because like I said earlier and I was half joking, but it really is true. We're we're all sort of the stars of our own show, you know, and and we think we're great. You know? And then someone comes in who is there to help us and the first thing they say one of the first things they say is, yeah, maybe you're not so great. There's some things here that we can we can work on. It can be a shock to the system.

Jim Kerr [00:22:34]:

And a lot of people resisted initially, frankly. You know, they don't wanna hear that. And

Tracy Borreson [00:22:40]:

I was gonna say I feel like the bigger challenge is denial in a lot. Yeah.

Jim Kerr [00:22:44]:

I mean, it goes through all the stages of, you know, recovery, I guess. But it's first, you gotta admit you have a problem. You know? And and now once we can get you to say, yeah, there is something there, then we can say, well, do you wanna fix it? And then if you wanna fix it, then you've got some help here to to get you through.

Adam Gray [00:23:04]:

Do do you not find though that most people know what the problem is? No. No. No. We don't we don't coach people on development. We coach people on action that they need to take to deliver certain outcomes. And very rarely have we ever coached anybody when they haven't known what they've needed to do, and they haven't known that they're not pulling their weight at doing that thing. And I'm sure that this person that was that was not very nice to the people that were reporting to her, she knew that she was not being nice because, you know, she wouldn't have behaved that way with her spouse or her boss. So

Jim Kerr [00:23:38]:

Well, we don't know that.

Tracy Borreson [00:23:42]:

We didn't call the spouse.

Jim Kerr [00:23:44]:

But

Adam Gray [00:23:46]:

but it is are are there are people often in this, a case of denial there? So they actually they do know what the problem is, but they're afraid of confronting that.

Jim Kerr [00:23:56]:

I I think so, Adam. I I I think sure. Deep down inside you might know, but you also have excuses. Mhmm. And that's how you live with yourself. So you you you basically make up some reasons why you operate the way you operate to justify it. Right? Unless you're, you know, really have mental illness or something. But I mean, you know, most of us really wanna, you know, feel like we're good people and doing good things and being nice to others and all that stuff.

Jim Kerr [00:24:29]:

Right? So so, yeah, I suppose deep down inside you know. But if you've spent decades telling yourself a story, and now all of a sudden you're in a leadership coaching situation and you're getting feedback from from, the coach that indicates that maybe some of those stories you're telling yourself aren't really true, it's yeah. It can kinda rattle you. And I and, you know, you asked about is there an emotional reaction. Yeah. A lot of times there is. Mhmm. You know?

Tim Hughes [00:25:04]:

I did a I did a 360 when I was in corporate, and there was stuff on, on that feedback on that. I didn't

Jim Kerr [00:25:11]:

know. Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:25:13]:

So so there was things that on there that you you you kind of you you you did know and to you you know, I I knew that. But there was feedback from people that I'd I'd gone to because you you try you're always told to go outside of the network of of the people that you generally work with to get a far broader level of,

Jim Kerr [00:25:32]:

feedback. Perspective.

Tim Hughes [00:25:33]:

Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and I I remember, getting stuff.

Tracy Borreson [00:25:40]:

Well, and I think just before we go to the question, there's, like, this concept called Johari's blind window,

Adam Gray [00:25:46]:

which

Tracy Borreson [00:25:46]:

is that, like, there's things you know about yourself that you can see. There's things about you that other people can see, but you can't see. There's things about other people that you can see that they can't see. And then there's just like a whole bunch of unknown things that is subconscious and unconscious and all of these things. And I think, like, we talked earlier about community. Like, what does that look like in terms of whether we go all the way to being vulnerable or we just talk about, like, I am in a space of psychological safety where I can accept that there's things I don't know about myself. And there's a benefit to me in having those things revealed to me because then I can do something with that. But up until that point, I actually don't see it that way because I can't see things through your eyes.

Tracy Borreson [00:26:36]:

I can only see things through my eyes. I only have my filters. I only have my experiences. And so unless you get those kind of 360 reviews or other wider feedback mechanisms of people saying like, hey, this is my experience of you, and I'd really love for us to, like, work together better. But we have to be able to see those things and accept those things in order for us to move forward, go on the journey.

Jim Kerr [00:27:02]:

Yeah. No. Absolutely. And and, you know, the Johari window thing is a is an excellent way to sort of document that those varied perspectives. And what it really does is it helps to identify blind spots. So it's things that people everyone else can see but you. And and those tend to be the things that in fact, I wrote an article about that for a UK magazine, probably 10 years ago about the job window. Manage management dash issues.com, if you ever wanna check it out.

Jim Kerr [00:27:38]:

But, yeah, the, the reality is that's the fodder for for coaching and development. It's those blind spots. And and you the cool thing is you get to choose which which ones you wanna work on. You know? Because like I said before, the coach really can't change you. Only you can change you.

Bertrand Godillot [00:27:59]:

Do we get a question from the audience and from from Sebastian? Thanks thanks for raising the question. I'll try to, hopefully, I get that correctly. Yeah. So why do we tend to focus on outcomes rather than, the thought process or the specific behaviors, that that drive these outcomes, basically, I suspect is the question. Any any I any

Jim Kerr [00:28:30]:

thoughts on that?

Bertrand Godillot [00:28:31]:

Feedback on that.

Jim Kerr [00:28:32]:

Yeah. You know, I think it's both. I I do believe that you wanna focus on outcomes because at the end of the day, especially in a business setting, that's what we're ultimately judged by. But you also have to look at how did I get there? How did I get to the behavior? And that's where you start to look at different, you know, models and and, ways of behaving that are impacting you, both positively and negatively. You know? Because there's there's things that we we do that our defense mechanisms that one could argue, that's really bad. That's bad behavior. But it's not really bad behavior if it's protecting you and keeping you, you know, sane. Right? So so there's a balance between just judging behavior, you know, without recognizing some of the impact.

Jim Kerr [00:29:33]:

And in the form of the question here, some of the outcomes that that behavior actually delivers. So you have to look at both things. You have to look at, you know, what what are we getting, what are we trying to achieve, and how am I behaving in ways to help me achieve that. Like, how we achieve it. You know?

Bertrand Godillot [00:29:55]:

And I guess probably the the, you know, the next, if we keep on that, on the on that path is basically the question of culture. Yeah. So it's basically how do you drive into an organization culture of, you could say, continuous improvement, but but when it comes to the way you drive the organization, the way you drive your management team, and ultimately, I suspect your, your individual contractors as well. So how does that how do you actually, you know, create that that culture?

Jim Kerr [00:30:35]:

Yeah. Well, first of all, Bertrand, I again, I love the question that that and let's start with some definitions. So culture in my mind and I do a lot of work in culture transformation. So it's a question I get asked all the time. Like, what's this, like, thing called culture? What do we? All it is at the end of the day is the way people behave. So it's a group of people. You know, if we wanna talk about, you know, ancient Inca culture, it's how the Incas behaved. You know, it's the stuff they did, the tools they used, what they ate Yeah.

Jim Kerr [00:31:06]:

How they interacted with each other, and so on. So when we look at a corporation and we talk about the culture, we're talking about the way the people inside that company behave. And, oh, by the way, there's micro cultures. Because maybe the finance department behaves a little differently than the marketing department. I think

Adam Gray [00:31:24]:

that's a fair bit.

Bertrand Godillot [00:31:25]:

No. I like it. That's that's clear. That's clear. So

Jim Kerr [00:31:29]:

yeah. So

Tracy Borreson [00:31:30]:

I've never been in an organization where the marketing department and the finance department culture is.

Jim Kerr [00:31:36]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so so, again, as someone that's coming in as a third party to to to try to help and effect change, I've gotta recognize the fact that there is that dynamic. There's micro cultures inside the broader culture. And we've got a baseline it. You know, where are we starting from? We've got to create a vision back to a point that Adam raised earlier in the conversation. And we have to sort of do a gap analysis. What's the difference between where we are today, our baseline, and where we wanna be, our vision.

Jim Kerr [00:32:08]:

And how do we define the the work that's necessary to move us from where we are to where we wanna go? And that's the culture transformation. It's all those projects and programs that you identify to help you move from your starting point to to your target. That's absolutely critical, and you've gotta fund and support and execute those those initiatives. So that's how we drive change. How does a a top leader, to get to your question, Virgil, how does a top leader, affect culture? It's how they behave. And and guess what? You can say anything you wanna say, but at the end of the day, your people are watching your feet. Meaning, they're watching how you behave. It doesn't matter what you're saying.

Jim Kerr [00:32:55]:

It it what matters is how you're behaving. And if you indicate that it's okay to be fair with your commitments, then guess what? You have a culture that lies. Okay? It's

Bertrand Godillot [00:33:10]:

it's really

Adam Gray [00:33:10]:

interesting you say that, and that's that's blindingly obvious. However, and there's always a however, we so rarely see leaders walking the walk. What we invariably see is leaders that have a vision that requires all of you guys to do really hard work, but I'm the leader and therefore I'm not going to do the hard work.

Jim Kerr [00:33:35]:

Mhmm.

Adam Gray [00:33:36]:

So so how is that possible? You know, because these are these are not exactly well kept secrets, are they?

Jim Kerr [00:33:43]:

Yeah. I I I think I would qualify some of what you say. I don't think it's always. I think it's sometimes, you know,

Bertrand Godillot [00:33:51]:

that Yeah.

Jim Kerr [00:33:52]:

The organizations that have dysfunction have what you just described. The leadership team operates differently than the expectations they're setting for their people. That's dysfunction. K? You could look at a family unit and and say, you know, you guys do you know, the the parents are yelling at the kids. You guys do this. And meanwhile, they're acting

Adam Gray [00:34:16]:

Stop shouting.

Jim Kerr [00:34:17]:

Right? That beautiful Stop smoking. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. So so that's where we've got this dissonance. You know? In those organizations where the where the top team operates differently than the expectations they're setting for their people, we have problems. And as a as a consultant to those organizations, I'm trying to identify that, help the leadership team recognize it, and then devise some some strategies and some initiatives that can be done to to make that happen.

Jim Kerr [00:34:51]:

And in a lot of instances, it won't happen because leadership team's not ready to change.

Adam Gray [00:34:57]:

Well, I mean, Tim and I worked at an organization where expenses were cost sensitive within the organization up to a certain level. And then above that level, $500 on a bottle of wine is no problem because we're going out and we're important people. But had any of us spent $500 on a bottle of wine, you know, we would have been on a a disciplinary for for that. And sometimes I imagine that that the reason the leadership behave in a disingenuous way to how they tell other people to behave in the organization is because actually, it's one of the perks of being a leader, isn't it? You know, do what I say, not what I do kind of thing. So so how how do you manage that? Because that's quite a big thing to address with, one would assume, powerful senior, you know, well remunerated people.

Jim Kerr [00:35:52]:

Yeah. I mean, again, it depends on the role and what I'm being asked to to accomplish. But if I was sitting on a leadership committee, and oftentimes, I become a de facto member of these leadership teams for the organizations that I work with. So I'm attending strategic planning meetings every week and doing all that kind of stuff. What what I often ask them is, are you ready to change? Do you want to do what's necessary to help your organization thrive? And be honest with them. You know? And by the time I get to that question, I've already got a lot of information in my back pocket. So depending on the reaction I get, I can draw from, well, yeah, but except in the engineering department, here's what's going on. And, you know, you're not actually behaving that way.

Jim Kerr [00:36:48]:

You know? Because look at this problem over here. So so it's it's having that honest, frank discussion that I think is the beginning of change. And then it's up to them, like I said, I've been saying throughout our conversation today. We can't change anybody but ourselves. So I can present the information. I can suggest what we need to do. But if you're a top leader, you have to decide. Is $500 bottle of wine, you know, necessary here?

Adam Gray [00:37:20]:

I mean, that that

Jim Kerr [00:37:21]:

expensive report, you know, like, why not

Adam Gray [00:37:24]:

Yeah. I mean, I mean, that that that was a flippant example. But but Tim and I, when we work with organizations, we get incredibly invested in the success of the organization. You know, we desperately want them to do well out of the stuff we teach them to do. In some cases, I feel that we want we're more desperate than they are for them to do well. Mhmm. And, you know, we we make no bones about the fact that this is a this is a journey, and some of the stuff we're gonna ask you to do is gonna be quite challenging. And as you said, Jim, are you are you up for the challenge? Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:37:56]:

We are absolutely. We're absolutely on this. We're a 100% and they're they're not. They're absolutely not. They they they love the idea, but right up until the point that it actually requires them to either work and do some stuff or step out of their comfort zone

Jim Kerr [00:38:11]:

Right.

Adam Gray [00:38:12]:

That's when the full enormity of change, not just our change, I guess, any change

Jim Kerr [00:38:16]:

Sure.

Adam Gray [00:38:17]:

Lands with somebody. So so how does one manage that when one is coaching and working with clients?

Jim Kerr [00:38:24]:

Well, I again, I mean, I I I feel like it's about being the accountability buddy as coach. So if you've agreed, if we've got the the, conversations happened and you say yes, and now I'm working with you. And now I'm gonna talk to you every week about, are you actually doing these things you said you're gonna do?

Adam Gray [00:38:47]:

But I've had a I've had a really difficult week this week. I've had loads

Tim Hughes [00:38:50]:

of quarter end, Jim.

Bertrand Godillot [00:38:51]:

Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:38:52]:

But but next week next week. I'm definitely

Jim Kerr [00:38:54]:

doing it

Adam Gray [00:38:54]:

next week.

Jim Kerr [00:38:55]:

So that happens to me about 1 or 2 coaching sessions, and I suggest we shouldn't be working together. I I basically fire clients that aren't committed to making change. Mhmm. Because it's a waste of their time and and resources and mine. You know? I really wanna have an impact. I wanna help people. It's so cool when you see growth. You know, I I was working with a a group of people who were identified as high potentials.

Jim Kerr [00:39:27]:

They were director level people. The typical profile was 20 years of experience in the company. Most of them had advanced degrees. We're preparing them for jobs at the vice president level. They were directors. And, you know, of a group of 12, 3 of them are now vice presidents, and that was within a year of working together. I I get great satisfaction from being able to share that story because it shows growth happened. That these these folks came at their baseline wherever they were, and then they worked at it and committed and made changes and got opportunities that they probably wouldn't have had had they not made that commitment to themselves.

Jim Kerr [00:40:17]:

So I feel like that's gotta be part of the contract. You know? And, again, I hate to say it, but I walk away from clients that don't care. If you don't care, then why should I?

Adam Gray [00:40:31]:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Tracy Borreson [00:40:32]:

I think more people should do that, honestly. I think it would, like, force people to actually make that decision to care. Because I'm not I'm not saying you're bad or wrong because you decide not to choose this right now, but, like, I'm here to help people who choose this right now.

Jim Kerr [00:40:48]:

Absolutely right. That that's the right attitude. I mean, there's no judgment. You know? You're just not ready or, you know, you're not ready to do the work. So if you're not ready to do the work, that's cool. Maybe maybe sometime in the future. Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:41:02]:

Well, I think that's I mean, to kinda speak to what you were saying, Adam, about, like, the leader just sits at the top and do no work. And I, like, personally, I don't like to pretend that being a visionary isn't work because other people are not coming up with that stuff. And I think that that's an important role for, like, high level leaders to play. And at the same time, what's the what are the other things that are your responsibility to do? Yeah. Maybe it's not coding, and I need people to code stuff, but, like, what do I need to do? What do I need to learn about myself? What do I need to learn about people? What do I need to learn about team building? What I need to learn about my own self awareness and how I micromanage people? Like, I don't want people to think that that's not work because that's a substantial amount of work and investment that people will put into themselves that a lot of people aren't putting into themselves. So I think that's I think that's an important thing to remember. Yeah.

Jim Kerr [00:41:58]:

I mean, to kind of play off of the point, I think, you know, if you were to draw a pyramid and you said, okay. The guys at the top of the pyramid are the top leadership team. There's this a layer in the middle that's the middle management, and then there's a layer that's much bigger that are supervisory at supervisory level. Well, if you think about what they're worrying about, the people at the top are worrying about where are we 5 years from now. So they have to envision. That's the job. Right? The folks in the middle need to be able to translate that into something that has to get done this year. So if I'm a middle manager, I'm worried about this year's budget, the this year's set of projects.

Jim Kerr [00:42:40]:

Right? And if I'm a supervisor, I'm not worrying about 5 years from now. I'm not even worried about this year. I'm worried about today. Like, how do I get work off my desk right this moment? Right? So you have to understand that if you're going to drive change. If you're a change agent from the outside, like the roles that we're talking about playing, then you gotta recognize that you're dealing with at least 3 different perspectives about what good looks like. You know? And then you've gotta help those folks at each of those layers by giving them what they need to be more effective. So that perspective is critical. If we don't have it, then we're not doing a really good job of delivering advisory services to those organizations because they're different perspective.

Jim Kerr [00:43:33]:

And, oh, by the way, they're different time frames.

Tracy Borreson [00:43:36]:

Well, actually okay. So this is the the question that I had, and I think it's important part. So this show is called Leadership Journey. And most people wouldn't assume that a journey is, like, 5 minutes.

Jim Kerr [00:43:48]:

So I'm

Tracy Borreson [00:43:49]:

going to, like, have one conversation with a coach and then know all the things I'm gonna need to know, and then I'm good. Like, there is a destination. And while most people would assume when we say journey that there's a destination, I feel personally that in leadership, there's not really a destination. Like, this is the continual investment to continuing to go on a journey. Because if we're responsible for what's 5 years from now and then COVID hits, and now what we thought was gonna be 5 years from now is definitely not what's 5 years from now. Like, I am in, like, an evolutionary role, and therefore, I need to be evolutionary. And so whereas even when you look at we're trying to use the the phrase earlier continuous improvement, Like, at the lower levels of an organization, there might be, like, very tactical things that I can implement from a continuous improvement perspective that can be done in 30 days. But a leadership journey and, again, like, I would love to hear your perspective on it, Jim, but in my head, a leadership journey is an investment in your career for the, like, lifetime of your career, and it's ongoing.

Jim Kerr [00:45:02]:

Yeah. I mean, I I I think the journey concept, I I think, is effective because it suggests there'll be bumps in the road. So so whether it's COVID comes out of left field and all of a sudden, we all have to deal with it. The game changes. We have to pivot. Frankly, my coaching work really, you know, went on steroids during that period because there was there was this whole group of people that, like everyone else on the planet, was like, what is this? Like, is this the end of the world as we know it? You know? And and helping folks kinda get through that was, was a good bit of work, and it it was trying to help them see that there are alternatives to the way they've been doing. The paradigm shifted. And what what's interesting about paradigms, right, is we really will defend them because we were successful within those paradigms.

Jim Kerr [00:46:06]:

So if you're successful in your chain of command by doing whatever it is you do, and someone from the outside comes in and says, you're wrong. You gotta change. You're gonna defend it. You're gonna come up with reasons and excuses. And like I say, all the lies we tell ourselves to sleep at night. All that's gonna come out and, you know, to be effective, you gotta help people see that for what it is. They they need to recognize that behavior in themselves, and then they have to choose to to change it. And then that's where coaching comes in.

Jim Kerr [00:46:40]:

Right? Because now we can help. As soon as you say you wanna make a change, okay, you got somebody that'll that'll do their best to help you.

Adam Gray [00:46:50]:

Should you change?

Jim Kerr [00:46:52]:

Yeah. I mean, there's some things that you that you're doing that's excellent and should continue, and if anything, just get better at it. And then there's other things that you're doing that maybe could be done in a different way and you'd be more effective. And at the end of it all, to tell you the truth, are you happy? You know, like, it really. I mean, really, it truly the the at the end of a coaching program where I've coached, you know, a person and we've met 25 times over the course of 6 months. Right? I'm kinda asking a question as part of the so long at the end. Are you happier? You know?

Bertrand Godillot [00:47:37]:

Like that.

Jim Kerr [00:47:38]:

Yeah. Look at that. They have they have to be.

Adam Gray [00:47:41]:

But, you

Jim Kerr [00:47:41]:

know, if if they aren't, then then either I didn't do a good job or they didn't do a good job. You know?

Tim Hughes [00:47:50]:

Jim, can I ask can I butt in and change the conversation? Sure. I've seen a lot about this at the on on LinkedIn. I wanted to get your perspective of it. Mhmm. Celebrating success. What's your view on it?

Jim Kerr [00:48:05]:

I I think you should celebrate success by acknowledging it. Like, look at the effort we put in and look at the payoff. Because if you commemorate it in some fashion, it's like, you know, Pavlov's dog. You're you're basically providing a reward. It's beyond just spoils of business being successful, but it's the idea that we're commemorating that we've all come together. We all had the same target. We all worked to get it, and let's recognize that. But there's the the however that Adam liked to use earlier.

Jim Kerr [00:48:44]:

However, you know, you've got to get off of that and on to the next thing. So it's yeah. Let's take a moment, celebrate our success, and now here's what we're gonna do next. It's great. And and

Tim Hughes [00:48:57]:

is it I mean, and and I don't know whether it's a generational thing or or or what. Is it is it that in effect that we should be having, micro celebrating of successes, or should we be doing it annually, or what what, you know, what what constitutes us having a celebration?

Jim Kerr [00:49:16]:

Yeah. I think it it it's it can be just a small gesture that sort of take let's take a moment and look at what we did. You know? The thing is, I feel like we all are motivated by success. So we've gotta take a moment to be able to recognize, like, yeah, we've been successful here. We achieved some goal. And and note it and then identify where we're going from here. You know, that kind of thing. Because we're organizations are living organisms.

Jim Kerr [00:49:54]:

Why? Because they're comprised of people who are living. Right? Living and breathing. So we've gotta continue to evolve and, take the moments to celebrate, sort of, you know, take a moment to smell the roses. And then let's move on. Let's keep going. Where where where is the next rose bush? You know, that kind of thing. Rob Long, we are seeing the in the, messages there. That celebrations need to feel natural, not feeling a square, and I couldn't agree more.

Jim Kerr [00:50:27]:

It it's gotta be just kinda part of the culture where you're you're actually able to, to make the those pauses to celebrate, to recognize, progress as just part of what we do. That's how we operate. That's how we behave in this culture.

Bertrand Godillot [00:50:44]:

Jim, there there are a few comments and questions in the chat that I'd like to to echo and kind of regroup. You know, we've all had a personal assistant dealing with our diaries and, you know, our our different meetings, etcetera. Do you think that there is any chance I have to raise that question that any form of intelligence,

Tracy Borreson [00:51:09]:

Artificial intelligence in particular

Bertrand Godillot [00:51:12]:

Especially. Yeah. Could at any

Jim Kerr [00:51:15]:

point intelligence to tell you this.

Bertrand Godillot [00:51:20]:

At any point in time, you know, act as a coach.

Jim Kerr [00:51:24]:

I I don't think so. I I do think that you can go to these giants. Some some coaches are actually selling this now. You can subscribe and

Bertrand Godillot [00:51:35]:

I'm sure. An a

Jim Kerr [00:51:37]:

an AI chatbot.

Tim Hughes [00:51:38]:

We we've had one on here, Jim.

Jim Kerr [00:51:41]:

Okay. Alright.

Tracy Borreson [00:51:42]:

In the comments.

Jim Kerr [00:51:44]:

Yeah. And I and I think that it it can do an you know, it can answer a question for sure. You know? If the, language model's rich enough, it might even be able to put out some pretty good ideas. But past that, there's this whole thing about how they how does a chatbot keep me accountable? How does a chatbot suggest things that, you know, didn't work? And how does a chatbot create a mirror so I can see myself in a different light? You know, it can't do those things. So I can ask a chatbot a question. Give me three ways to engage my team, and it'll spit out 3 ideas. And I can say, I really like idea number 2. Give me 3 ideas about how to do idea number 2, and they can give me that.

Jim Kerr [00:52:38]:

But when when I actually start to practice whatever those sentences are that the AI thing spit it out. I need somebody who actually can see it and recognize the behavior and see how people reacted to that new thing that I was doing and give me feedback, and a chatbot can't do that.

Tim Hughes [00:52:58]:

And I think that a coach is gonna challenge. You talked earlier on about Absolutely. If if I decide, well, I'm not gonna do that. And you can turn around and say, yeah. But what about what's going on in engineering? And and because you've got those things in the back pocket, you you you know how to challenge.

Jim Kerr [00:53:15]:

Right. Right. But I think it could be a not to to say, oh, AI is bad. It's not. I think it's great and it and it can complement what we're doing. So I see it as a tool, not but it's not a it's not a replacement.

Bertrand Godillot [00:53:33]:

Thank you, Jim. Really, thanks. It's been really great. Where can we learn more? How can we get in touch with you?

Jim Kerr [00:53:44]:

Yeah. So I've got a couple of different places to look. Once and I've created a whole cottage industry around the word indispensable. So if it's indispensable, it's in thank you, Tim. But, that's the book.

Tracy Borreson [00:53:57]:

Tim holds up Jim's book.

Jim Kerr [00:54:00]:

Right. That that that's the most recent book. It just came out in August. It's got a 101 leadership tips. Check it out. But you can also find the coaching sideis indispensable-coaching.com/, . And the consulting side is indispensable-consulting.com. So so look at both of those, for ideas about how I might be able to help you.

Bertrand Godillot [00:54:28]:

Thank you. Thank you, Jim. We now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode. Get the show highlights behind the behind the show insights and reminders of upcoming episodes. You can scan the QR code on screen or visit us at the digital download. Live/ newsletter. On behalf of the panelists, to our guest, Jim, thank you all, and see you next time.

Bertrand Godillot [00:55:01]:

Thank you very much.

Jim Kerr [00:55:02]:

Thank you, James.

Bertrand Godillot [00:55:03]:

Thank you. Bye. Bye, everybody.

Jim Kerr [00:55:05]:

A lot of fun. Thanks.

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