This week on The Digital Download, we’ll explore why the best brands don't just compete - they create experiences their customers can’t live without. John DiJulius, founder of The DiJulius Group and Chief Revolution Officer, will share how organizations can elevate their customer and employee experiences to gain an unbeatable edge.

Join us as we tackle questions like:

* What does it take to make your brand indispensable to customers?

* How can customer experience outweigh price in decision-making?

* Why do so many companies fail to deliver world-class service?

* What are the most common barriers to creating a superior experience?

* How does employee experience tie into customer loyalty?

John has worked with brands like The Ritz-Carlton, Lexus, and Starbucks, guiding them to make exceptional experiences their defining advantage. His decades of consulting and authorship offer unmatched insights into creating loyalty that no competitor can disrupt.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• John DiJulius, founder and Chief Revolution Officer of The DiJulius Group

This week's Host was -

• Rob Durant, Founder of Flywheel Results, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of DLA Ignite,

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite, and

• Bertrand Godillot, Managing Partner, Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Transcript of The Digital Download 2024-11-22

Rob Durant [00:00:03]:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of The Digital Download, the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live. Now globally syndicated on tune in radio through IBGR, the world's number one business talk, news, and strategy radio network. Today, we're learning how great customer experience makes price irrelevant. We have a special guest, John DeJulius, to help us with the discussion. John has worked with brands like the Ritz Carlton, Lexus, and Starbucks, guiding them to make exceptional experiences their defining advantage. But before we bring John onto the show, let's go around to the set and introduce everyone. While we're doing that, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend, ping them, and have them join us? We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience, and audience participation is highly encouraged.

Rob Durant [00:01:10]:

Okay. With that, Adam, would you kick us off, please?

Adam Gray [00:01:15]:

Good afternoon or good morning, depending on where you're dialing in from. I'm Adam Gray. I'm cofounder of DLA Ignite, dialing in from home, which is a very cold Suffolk at the moment.

Rob Durant [00:01:29]:

Alright. Thank you for that, and welcome. Bertrand.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:33]:

Good morning and good afternoon, everyone. My name is Bertrand Godillot. I am the founder and managing partner of Odysseus and Co. We're working with customers to generate more conversations with our ICPs, and I'm a very, proud DLA Ignite partner.

Rob Durant [00:01:50]:

Excellent. Thank you very much. Tim.

Tim Hughes [00:01:54]:

Welcome, everybody. Yes. I'm Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO of DLA Ignite, and I'm famous for writing the book, Social Selling, Techniques to Influence Buyers and Changemakers.

Rob Durant [00:02:05]:

Thank you very much. And myself, I am Rob Durrant, founder of Flywheel Results. We help start ups scale, and I too am a proud DLA Ignite partner. As I said, this week on the digital download, we'll speak with John DeJulius, founder of the DeJulius Group and chief revolution officer. John will share how organizations can elevate their customer and employee experiences to gain an unbeatable advantage. Let's bring him on. John, good morning and welcome.

Tim Hughes [00:02:42]:

Hi, John. You look cold.

John DiJulius [00:02:46]:

I am cold. It snowed it snowed in Cleveland, Ohio last night. First time this year. Won't be the last.

Rob Durant [00:02:53]:

No. No, it won't. John, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you to where you are today.

John DiJulius [00:03:03]:

Probably like most accidents. Started off, 32 years ago. Me and my wife opened this small hair salon, in, Cleveland, and it took off. And, we started growing and opening up multiple locations, and, we had a, a really good reputation for the customer experience. You know? So this is in the mid nineties. And so people started asking me, chambers of commerce and people in in in Ohio to come and speak, about what we were doing, why we were growing so fast and our reputation for experience. And, I only did it thinking it would, you know, draw more, customers to the salons. Never thinking it would it would, you know, take me out of the salons.

John DiJulius [00:03:52]:

But every time I spoke, you know, a few business leaders would ask me if I can come in and do this to their teams, and I didn't know that was a thing and, you know, started doing that more and more. And then in 2003, my first book came out, and that pretty much took me out of the salon industry and, you know, speaking and consulting ever since. So, still own the salons, but not not day to day. Have nothing to do with those. Just the the consulting, on customer and employee experiences is what, I do full time.

Rob Durant [00:04:28]:

Alright. John, I wanna start with a foundational question. What do you mean when you say price is irrelevant?

John DiJulius [00:04:37]:

Yeah. I love that. That's what we do. That's what we've done in our companies. That's what we help people do. Making price irrelevant doesn't mean you can, you know, double your prices or even raise them 30% and not lose existing or potential customers. What we mean by making price irrelevant is based on the experience your brand consistently delivers, your customers, clients, patients, tenants, whatever you may call them, they should have no idea what your competition charges. You know, so there's a lot to unpack there, obviously, what your brand consistently delivers.

John DiJulius [00:05:09]:

That means it can't be dependent on one person. We call that employee roulette. Right? You know, whoever we deal with, whatever department location, employee, that they consistently deliver. And and I've been the fool that's driven 3 extra miles to save 50¢ on something, not realizing I just lost in that exchange. Right? But I also have a few few people personally and professionally I do business with that have created such a a rapport, such a a a relationship, peace of mind, brilliant comeback when they've dropped the ball that, I'm so loyal. I have no idea, how they stack up to their competition because I'm never I'm never comparing them.

Rob Durant [00:05:54]:

I love how you say brilliant comeback. I am all for forgiving somebody for making a mistake. Mistakes happen. We're human. It's how you respond when you make that mistake that is a critical difference for me.

John DiJulius [00:06:10]:

There's a, a thing called the service recovery paradox, and it it says, like, you know, if I if I do business with you and I have these expectations and you and you deliver them, I may or may not become loyal, you know, or or the lifetime value is is you know, if Tim comes along and offers me this, you know, what you do but maybe a better deal, I'll switch. But there there's a scientific proof that if you drop the ball and make it right, I'm gonna be 10 times more loyal. So I always say the best customer service loyalty strategy is screw up first. Joking, but but we've all, you know, been on both sides of that where it it absolutely does work.

Adam Gray [00:06:52]:

So you began with a string of hair salons. Clearly clearly something very close to my heart. And, and so so what did you do there? Because, clearly, this is not about giving somebody a a piece of candy when they come in. You know? Right. To to to grow quickly like that requires you to be markedly different from everybody else. So so what did you look at in the industry and think, okay. We're not gonna do you know, when everyone else zigs, we're gonna zag. We're gonna do something different.

Adam Gray [00:07:25]:

What what was that?

John DiJulius [00:07:27]:

Yeah. It was kind of a necessity. So when we open, and it's it's probably typical to any city we're living in, big city. When we opened in, 90 1993, we had the 3 no's. No money, no customers, no employee. And even if you had a bad arm, you could throw a a a ball in any direction and hit 10 competitors. Right? I mean, we were just another of, you know, 20 salons on the strip. And we couldn't outspend, we couldn't outadvertise, we couldn't out, you know, build a prettier salon than our competition.

John DiJulius [00:08:03]:

But what was lacking, probably in every business back then, was good customer experience. You know, salons and and again, at least in my area, you know, no one gave a great experience. But salons was like, you know, because because my wife had worked in salons and it was kinda like if you came in and said, listen, you know, I I don't like what you did, you know. It's not blonde enough. It's not red enough. It's not they they they throw you out. They just weren't good. So we said, alright.

John DiJulius [00:08:33]:

We wanna be the best experience, and we call them guests, in our guest day. And something that was really key back then is we didn't say we wanna be the best experience in a salon experience, day because I think where a lot of businesses get confused is who we compete with. So let's pretend, and this is pretending, we are the best salon in Cleveland. Okay? It really wouldn't matter, Adam, if your wife came in today, she then doesn't leave and go across the street, down the street to our nearest competitor. Right? She's good for hair services for a a a few weeks, a few months, whatever her cadence is. But she goes to the dentist office after. She runs to, you know, the mall. She has, meets her friends for lunch.

John DiJulius [00:09:21]:

And we wanted to blow those experiences away. So that's really what we focused on, you know, yeah, little things like, silent cues and visual triggers. So, you know, if you come into our salons, you might see 10 people getting a haircut. You might see 8 in a white I'm sorry, black John Roberts haircutting cape. You'll see 1 or 2 in a white John Roberts haircutting cape. Well, our customers, we have black and white capes. To any of our team members, anyone in white has never been there before. So that's a different you know, if I'm walking by, if anyone's walking by, hey.

John DiJulius [00:09:57]:

Welcome to John Roberts. You know, I understand this is your first experience. I'm Sally. I do massages. You know, can I get you another cup of coffee? If you're in a black cape, you're an old friend. Hey. Great to see you again. So little silent cues and visual triggers, like that.

John DiJulius [00:10:14]:

And it just took off. And now 32 years later, while we do have deeper pockets, we still don't spend money on on advertising or marketing or or anything like that. We focus on the experience.

Adam Gray [00:10:27]:

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

Rob Durant [00:10:30]:

So you alluded to this. I'm going to ask directly then. What does it take to make your brand indispensable to the to customers? You said when you drop the ball, I'm going to remain more loyal to you. It can't be just about dropping the ball.

John DiJulius [00:10:47]:

No. No. No. No. It's personalization. It's knowing you. It's, you know, my first book, the the it it's called Secret Service. But the original name, I think we're all old enough to remember, that I tried to come out with it, but I couldn't get permission was Mastering the Norm Factor.

John DiJulius [00:11:08]:

Norm from Cheers. If you're ever when Norm walked into Cheers, everyone yelled, Norm. Right? And that was our whole strategy. So, you know, Rob, if you came in twice a week, that was obviously a little easier. Right? We'd know you, you know, but, you know, we but but but if if you came in twice a year, some people come in twice a year, we would do those things to, you know, know Rob. So one of the things that we teach and and all our clients, have adopted is, learn people's Ford, f o r d. If you can learn 2 or more things of people's Ford in in a 3 minute conversation or a 45 minute meeting, you not only built a relationship, you now own the relationship because the each and every one of us listening, you know, our Ford is our hot buttons. It would it's it's what gets us talking and and and and excited.

John DiJulius [00:12:06]:

F, family. You know? Are they married? Do they have kids? How old are their kids? What activities are their kids into? O, occupation. What do they do? Who do they do it for? How long they've been doing it? What's their job title? R is a lot of people's hottest buttons besides their kids is recreation. Right? What we choose to do with our nights, evenings, weekends, days off, someone might be a marathoner, someone might be, you know, hot yoga, someone might be a a a little league soccer coach. Right? And then finally, d is dreams. You know, what's what's on their bucket list? What's their encore career that they're they're working towards? What's their dream vacation? So, you know, some scenarios, sales and and and, you know, that that that allows for it. It was our chitchat before we got on. We were in the waiting room.

John DiJulius [00:12:52]:

Now I don't want if you call in to book an appointment, I don't want my call center to forward you. That would be like a stalker checklist. Right? But but and so often, you don't have to, because because clients overshare. They may be saying, hey. I need to move my 3 o'clock on Wednesday because my daughter's team soccer team made it to the to the championship. Right? Capture that. And then when they come in a week from Wednesday, someone at a salon could say, hey. You know, Tim, how'd your daughter's, team doing? He's like, they won.

John DiJulius [00:13:25]:

How'd you know? Oh, Tim, you're our favorite guest. You know? So, you know, we have a Ford Field that we collect at, that you work at Progressive Insurance or, like I said, anything that we can find and share. All our banks that we work with are are you know, all different models have added a Ford Field to their CRM system.

Rob Durant [00:13:47]:

Is there a fine line between, innate curiosity and and personal, person personability and, being manipulative?

John DiJulius [00:14:02]:

Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, that that is part of of studying. First off, if a client shares, you know, now, you know, let's say someone has a a call with you from my team next week, Rob, there's gonna be notes in there that you live, you know, you know, just outside of Boston. Right? That's fine to say, hey. How how's the weather in Boston this time of year? You know? And and and and things like that. Also, anything anyone probably shares, you know, on on LinkedIn or, you know, you just got promoted or we can go in there, you know, if we haven't had a call before and see what you're an alumni of, you know, or who we have mutual connections with. So it's it's common sense, but, you know, we we we haven't, you know, to my knowledge, I haven't had anyone ever come back and say, woah. You guys crossed the line.

John DiJulius [00:14:50]:

But there is definitely teaching, moments and training moments that, you know, if it is sensitive, you know, don't bring it up unless they do or don't bring it up at all.

Rob Durant [00:15:03]:

What are some of the common, barriers to creating a superior customer experience?

John DiJulius [00:15:11]:

Well, the first one is and I think this is what most CEOs and leaders get wrong with customer service. I think most of them, think that it's common sense and it's innate. And, you know, really, the the bottom line is how good any organization is at customer service come comes down to one thing and one thing only. The the service aptitude, of from the CEO to the janitor to the newest customer service rep that you just hired that's about to you're about to cut loose on the phones. Right? Service aptitude is a person's ability to recognize opportunities to meet or exceed customer's expectations, and the last four words here are key, regardless of the circumstances. Okay? So so, you know, yeah, we could all shine on our slowest time, you know, slowest day. But what about our peak time when 2 people's called in sick, we're running late? You know, that's when we have to, you know, provide service aptitude. But here, that's not the paradigm shift.

John DiJulius [00:16:12]:

That that that's probably common sense. The it's where service aptitude comes from. All of ours, all of our existing generation employees, and all of our future generation employees, our service aptitude comes from 3 places. Okay. First one is previous life experiences. I don't know about any of you, but I didn't grow up staying at 5 star resorts, flying 1st class, getting a Mercedes Benz when I turned 16. Right? Yet every job I had in high school, after high school, in college after college, I was expected to give the that type of experience. And, you know, the the golden rule, treat customers the way you wanna be treated is a horrible compass for customer service.

John DiJulius [00:16:56]:

Right? I have a 22 year old son. If any of you would hire him tomorrow and say, Beau, I want you to treat our customers, our clients the way you wanna be treated, that'd be a horrible mistake. Right? He'd greet him and give him a fist pump, and he'd say, what's up, dude? And, you know, that's where he's at today. But he's a great kid if you give him some great the 2nd place service aptitude gets shaped is previous work experiences. Right? And unless, you know, we have a direct pipeline of former Disney, Ritz Carlton, 4 Seasons, whatever the the world class brand is in in in your in your market. None of us none of us have a a direct pipeline to hiring people from there. So that there's a a a pretty good chance that the people we're hiring have worked somewhere else where their manager leader was paranoid, taught them to say, listen, young young Rob, it's your job not to let people take advantage of us. Policy, policy, policy.

John DiJulius [00:17:55]:

Now we hire young Rob, and he's treating our platinum VIP client like they're trying to get away with something. So those first two places, previous life experience, previous work experience, we can't control as leaders. Right? The only thing we can control is the 3rd place service aptitude gets shaped, and that's what we do with them after we hire them. Right? And so the question I love to ask people is if you're to hire my son, Beau, to be in a customer facing position, Okay? You hire him today. How much training would you give him before you would cut him loose to start working with your clientele? And some people say 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months. That that's not the answer I'm, I'm looking for. The answer I'm looking for is of those 40 hours, 400 hours, or 4000 hours. How much of it is technical processes, you know, scheduling, taking the credit card, placing the order, all that? And how much of it is a soft skill? Building a rapport, showing empathy and compassion, you know, making a brilliant comeback, all those collecting for it.

John DiJulius [00:18:57]:

And in most businesses, it's 98% operational processes. And in in the 2%, it's it's, hey, Bo, we're customer centric. You know, see the the sign in the back. Go do that. And if I tell a 100 employees to be customer centric, I'm gonna get a 100 personal interpretations. Okay? And so great world class experienced brands remove personal interpretations. They teach them what they mean by that.

Adam Gray [00:19:29]:

So

Rob Durant [00:19:30]:

Go ahead.

Bertrand Godillot [00:19:31]:

So, John, I I think a lot of what you're what you're describing here is is really about creating a relationship. And and what's what's kind of interesting as well is what you're actually saying is that you can learn this, which is to me, a bit surprising because I think there's a bit of soft skill in this that you might get or not. Do do you have experiences where where actually teaching has failed?

John DiJulius [00:20:02]:

So so, something I could provide, you guys as a link, a follow-up is we have, interview questions, to recognize if employees have the potential, service aptitude, and they're free free download. And there's, like, 30 questions, and you shouldn't use them all. Take 5 or 6 with and there's a skill set that we're looking for. Mhmm. And there's some skill sets that all the training in the world isn't gonna move the needle. If you if you don't genuinely like people, I can't train you 10000 hours to like people. Doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means that maybe we need to put you in a in a in a cube or in a closet and you crunch numbers or do research.

John DiJulius [00:20:45]:

Right? Nothing wrong with it. But if we're looking at a customer facing position, I gotta you know, another thing is, are you enthusiastic? Right? You know, are you positive? So here's some questions, and and and we make our interview process ungamable. Okay? Meaning, you know I'm gonna ask you, Bertrand. You know, Bertrand, on the interview, tell me 2 things that that, weaknesses that you have. And you probably gotta think and pause and then say, you know, I'm a workaholic and perfectionist. Right? Bam. I nailed that question. So questions that people don't know what they're being judged on, we might say, Bertram, on your time off, what's your favorite thing to do, right, with your time off? Now I don't care what your answer is.

John DiJulius [00:21:29]:

Fishing, fly fishing, playing Dungeons and Dragons, you know, 12 hours at that's not what I'm looking for. What I'm looking for is when you're talking about your favorite thing to do with your time off, if you get passionate, if you're enthusiastic. If you don't, you're not gonna be passionate, enthusiastic about anything. Right? So there's a lot of questions like that to find out if you like others. You know you know you know, Bertram, you know, customers complain. In your in your experience, you think they're legitimate or just try to get something for free. Just trying to get a a pulse of, you know, you know, what you do. Bertram, you know, you know, who's your hall of fame, top 4 Rushmore people you respect, you know, and and why? And, you know, that that's really telling of of the why.

John DiJulius [00:22:18]:

You know? It might be your dad. It might be your uncle. It might be your coach. But but you'd be surprised at some of the people and why. You know? So, yeah, most of it, I I believe can't be taught. I don't know about you guys. I wasn't a a great employee at one time. I came in and, you know, maybe right at the the the, you know, at 9 AM, 8:59, and, you know, I was trading hours for dollars.

John DiJulius [00:22:42]:

Right? But then someone got me to believe in the purpose and and my part that played in it, and it it it flicked a switch. And and I realized the value of being present, of you know, I understand the day in the life of a customer. You know, they taught me what what they were struggling with and why it was so important that I was present and my expertise benefited them in their job.

Adam Gray [00:23:08]:

I I love that thing about ask the question. I actually don't care what you deliver as your answer, but I love how you deliver it. That's the telling thing, whether you're passionate and you care about it and, and I I think like all really good ideas, the the beauty of this is that it's blindingly obvious and so simple. Now, clearly, there's a big difference between simple and easy, and that's how we all make our money. But but I love the fact that there's nothing that you have said that anyone can push back on. You know, you want really good employees. Well, they've gotta be passionate. They've gotta have a customer service flare.

Adam Gray [00:23:44]:

They've got to to to to care about people. Yeah. No. You're wrong. What we want is a load of customer service reps that are miserable, and they don't like people. That's not an answer you're ever gonna get, is it?

John DiJulius [00:23:57]:

Right. And and and to your point, if I say, Adam, on an interview, Adam, do you do you like people? What do you guys say? Yes. You

Bertrand Godillot [00:24:05]:

like people. Not not.

John DiJulius [00:24:09]:

So I gotta find out if you really do, you know. And, you know, I've learned this from great companies. You know, you know, other, interview processes is is, you know, instead of if you're interviewing, you know, for a position, you know, front desk receptionist, call center rep, whatever it is, the first interview, instead of having 6 individual interviews, right, which is 6 hours, bring them all in on the first interview. Alright? So, you you know, we're interviewing here, and and I'll ask you guys a question. Hey. Tell me a time when, you know, you were in a situation and blah blah blah. Again, I don't care what the answer is. Now the interviewee thinks that what they're being judged on is who has the best answer.

John DiJulius [00:24:54]:

Right? Adam, you wanna crush Tim's answer. Oh, you could blow that away. You know? You found the the the the burning building and saved the, you know, the baby. Right? What what we're looking for is what you're doing when Tim's talking. You know, you might be checked out. You might be focusing on how you can one up his answer. You might be looking at your Apple Watch, or or Rob is smiling at Tim Dance or Tim said something clever, something funny, and and he's smiling. That's what we're looking for.

John DiJulius [00:25:25]:

So there's a lot of interview you know, there's a lot of, you know, making it ungameable where people think you're being focused on one thing and you're really not.

Adam Gray [00:25:36]:

I I just love absolutely love what you're saying here because it's so as I said, you know, it's just so obvious, isn't it? You know, you you want to get to know the real person, Not not stuff they've prepped for for the interview or the conversation. You want to get to know the real person behind because when they've been enrolled for 6 months or 6 years, the real person will out, won't they?

John DiJulius [00:26:00]:

Yeah. And you guys I remember, again, I'm I'm talking to an audience that said that that, you know, can can connect with my, generation. Colombo, lieutenant Colombo, you know, but the the to detective Colombo.

Adam Gray [00:26:14]:

My collar up for this. Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:26:18]:

He's just impression John, by the way. So

John DiJulius [00:26:23]:

So so I interview, like, Columbo. I just go down rabbit holes. I say, hey, Tim. Before we start the interview, I see that you played soccer in high school. Right? What was that like? And, obviously, interview is going. But you might say, you know, I played 2 years, but I quit my junior year because the coach was a jerk. Right? You know, and those types of things. And people let their guard down, and you just go on rabbit holes.

John DiJulius [00:26:49]:

And, you know, you know, that's my interview, is a bunch of rabbit holes just to see if you're a glass half empty guy, you know, and and and, you know, always been a victim or, you know, things like that. The other thing, a best practice that we do, our clients do, is we create a day in the life of a customer. So the biggest disconnect, with employees is most customer facing employees in any business, accounting, legal, you know, any business, most client facing, customer facing employees aren't the customer. Okay? Meaning they're not the same age age group. They they haven't, you know, done what they've done. My consultants that work for me have never worked in corporate America. They don't know what it's like to work for a public health company. Right? So there's a disconnect.

John DiJulius [00:27:38]:

They don't know what that's like. So I have to teach them. And so so we create a video of a day in the life of a customer to show, the pressures, you know, in the hair salon. My average employee is a, you know, mid twenties single female. Our average guest is a 43 to 59 year old professional female. So what's a 26 year old single woman know what it's like to be a 52 year old man or woman where 24 hours is enough time in a day, 36 hours wouldn't be enough time of the day? Aging parents, you know, work pressure. So it it doesn't mean we change who we hire, but we show them, you know, a a a video that, you know, is you know, shows that their son's getting bullied. They just got promoted.

John DiJulius [00:28:25]:

They just, you know, sold their business. They're they just found out that their mother has dementia. Just so you realize who you might be dealing with today and and why you need to be present on your a game and, you know, that they're, you know, they're depending on the job you do for them.

Rob Durant [00:28:44]:

Joan, I wanna ask you, about your clients for a moment. In my experience, and I I've worked in a lot of customer service roles and, I actually worked for Disney for a decade. I've worked for companies and that for the most part, see customer service as a cost center. Expense. As an expense. And what do we do with expenses? We cut them. We reduce them to as close to 0 as possible. How do you convince your clients first and foremost, that outstanding customer service is a revenue generating proposition.

Rob Durant [00:29:25]:

How do you help them see the ROI in this?

John DiJulius [00:29:28]:

And, and that that's the first place we start. Usually when they're calling us, they're raising their hand admitting that they've, that, that, that hasn't worked. Okay. And when you see my client list, I'm sure it's like yours. It's Spirit Airlines or Ryanair aren't on there. You know? The people that stink aren't calling us. It's usually the people that are really good that that already understand the the ROI. But here's what we do when we work with a client.

John DiJulius [00:29:55]:

The first thing we do is we create an ROX dashboard, return on experience. Okay? Directly relates to if you're providing so I'll give you a great example. We, one of our long time clients, is a is a mortgage company that works with veterans of the military. Okay? Now they had an issue of the hard part, Rob, is if you're a veteran and you're calling and you wanna, you know, get a mortgage in any mortgage company, the hard part is getting you approved. If I can't get you approved, you know, we can't, you know, go to to to second base. They were of the people they approved, 15% were opting out right before the loan closed. So we we call that a VOO, veteran opt out, okay, which in the American football terms, I wanna make sure I use the right terminology, that's fumbling the ball on 1 yard line. Right? I mean, we're right there.

John DiJulius [00:30:56]:

We've done all the work. You know, it's gonna close December 1st, and you're calling me on November 22nd saying, I file and the account executives would say, they found, a cheaper rate. That's why we lost them. Okay? It wasn't the price. It wasn't the rates. So we had to investigate. So so another thing, Avu, veteran opt out, they were losing 15% a month. Every 1% of Avu is over $400,000.

John DiJulius [00:31:24]:

Okay? A month. All the work has been done. So we had to investigate why people were opting out. Well, it's because the account executive and these account executives are recent college graduates. They're 23, 24, 25. Again, they don't know what it's like to be a veteran. A lot of their veterans are from Vietnam, you know, 78 and older. You know, there's a disconnect.

John DiJulius [00:31:47]:

But here's what happened, Rob. I get you approved. Your loan's gonna close, you know, January 5th. And then I stopped communicating with you because now I'm working on Tim because Tim's in my pipeline. I wanna get Tim approved. I've already spent your commission. So they start ghosting and not communicating with the the ones, you know, that are approved. I had to ask my kids what ghosting meant.

John DiJulius [00:32:12]:

Right? So so they would opt out. So here so so here's what we did. Worked with our IT, and and the voo is an outcome. That's not the problem. It's what what the problem was that we stopped communicating with you. So we created a system that if an account executive didn't communicate with the the veteran, every 48 hours, the loan froze. If the loan freezes, obviously, account executive can't get into it. But not only that, his supervisor finds out about it.

John DiJulius [00:32:43]:

The chief revenue officer finds out about, that. The CEO you don't want the loan to freeze because you're gonna have 10 people come to you and say, why did veteran Jones' loan freeze? You didn't communicate. As a result, in in in in the fur about 5 months later after we rolled this out, their, monthly boost went from 15% to 8%. I'm still pissed about the 8%. Right? But that 7% of reduction in boost was worth more than $2,000,000 in revenue a month. So when I go to you, Rob, and say, we can save you $2,000,000 a month by just communicating better, that pays for the project right there. You know? I mean so it's finding the thing. Sales is not a a a an indicator.

John DiJulius [00:33:32]:

Right? There's so many other things, so why sale? Usually, sales is a lagging indicator, but they're you know, it's, the best KPI I've ever, seen. You know, I just wrote an article and did a a a a a webinar on stop surveying your customers. Right? And I don't mean that literally, but we all have survey fatigue. Right? We're getting blown up on surveys. I don't fill out 99. The only time I will is if you're really screwed up, and I wanna let them know. Right? And that's not a so but but the the best one, I love this, and Fred Reichheld, invented this. He's the, you know, it's track your earned sales.

John DiJulius [00:34:12]:

Okay? So here it is. Last month, last quarter, whatever you wanna do. Well, let's say we brought in a $1,000,000. Okay? Of that $1,000,000 in sales, what was bought and what was earned? Bought is advertising. How'd you hear us? I saw you know, Googled you. I saw your billboard. I saw, you know, whatever it is. K.

John DiJulius [00:34:31]:

That's bought. Earned is one of 2 things. You're a repeat customer or you were referred. So if you have the business that says, alright, Rob. How did you hear of us? Oh, Tim said I had to do business with you. He said if I want you're the guy or you're the business. Okay? That's earned. Okay? And or you you've done business with it again.

John DiJulius [00:34:54]:

You track earned. We track earned not only as a company, but we track it as a consultant. Alright? And we could say, Rob, your earned growth, your sales is 32%, meaning, 68% is coming off our advertising. Now Adam's earned sales could be 60%. Adam's a hell of a lot more profitable. And, I mean, that's earned is all profit. And the and and you know is if you're calling up or I'm calling you, how'd you hear about SEO? You know, I Googled you. Well, I also Googled 5 other businesses, so you better be the best deal because I'm calling them too.

John DiJulius [00:35:33]:

But if I'm earned where I've done business with you before or, again, Adam said I have to use you, you're the you're the company, that sales cycle is real easy. That's price is less sensitive. I'm not calling 6 other companies to compare you by.

Bertrand Godillot [00:35:49]:

I just love it, John. Mhmm. Excellent. I've got a question for you. Since you you you're not French, why do you call yourself a chief revolution officer?

John DiJulius [00:36:05]:

Because, our our, purpose is to change the world by creating a customer service revolution. My, you know, last books are the customer service revolution and the employee experience revolution. We have a definition to the revolution, a change of the world by creating an experience revolution. It's a it's a radical overthrow of conventional business mentality designed to transform what employees and customers experience. And the second part, I like even more. This shift permeates, you know, into, people's personal lives at home and in the community, which in turn provides the business with higher sales, brand loyalty, and and, and makes, price irrelevant. So we're all about creating a revolution, you know, disrupt the industry. Steve Jobs had a great quote.

John DiJulius [00:37:00]:

Don't ask the customers what they want. Give them what they can't live without. Right? And so if you think about the revolutionary companies, Airbnb, Uber, Zappos. I don't know if the Zappos is worldwide, but you you buy shoes online, which is crazy. Right? Starbucks 30 years ago, all those. They didn't do focus groups. You know, what what they came out with was just crazy. The the consumer couldn't even comprehend that I I still can't comprehend the business model.

John DiJulius [00:37:31]:

If you came to me with the Airbnb Airbnb model today, I would tell you you're nuts. You know? It just makes no sense to me. Or Uber. You know? Yeah. You know, you're gonna you know, what would you want in a cab driving experience? A cab what? You know? Yeah. I wanna step on any street corner 2 PM or 2 AM and have a strange unmarked car pull up, and I'll get in and drive off of them. Are you crazy? Right? But that's, you know, that's revolutionary that, you know, you know, I I think the customer doesn't know what they want until you give it to them.

Adam Gray [00:38:05]:

Odd oddly, the when you said about, Rob has a 32%,

John DiJulius [00:38:11]:

earned Earned earned sales.

Adam Gray [00:38:12]:

Earned sales, which means 6%.

John DiJulius [00:38:14]:

Work with Rob. Rob Rob's struggling there.

Adam Gray [00:38:17]:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we we know that. Don't worry. But but the thing that's really interesting is that that that, flipping the statistic to focus on their I was talking to somebody just yesterday, actually, and they said that that they were running some questionnaires for sales teams. And, the question that they typically would ask was, how much, you know, as a percentage, how much would you trust your sales leader? And, you know, people go, well, you know, I kinda trust him, so I'm gonna put it up 80%. 80% I trust him. And he said, yeah.

Adam Gray [00:38:53]:

The 80% is nice. The 20% is the bit you've gotta worry about because it means that 20% of the time, I don't trust this person. And it's just it it's it's very compelling when you often turn those things around, isn't it? So 68 percent I understand. Rob's buying the business. I mean, clearly, he isn't because that's not what we do. But Right. But that was a concept. That's incredibly powerful, isn't it?

John DiJulius [00:39:17]:

You know, as not only as a company, but like I said, as consultants, as lawyers, as accountants, as hairdressers, I want you losing sleep at night over your own growth. You know? And and the way you grow your own growth is, number 1, give such a phenomenal experience so much value that they feel that you're a bargain even though you're the most expensive in town. And then secondly, you know, if you're doing that, you know, and and and, Adam, you call me up and say, you know, John, I just wanna tell you, you've been great to work with. This is project has exceeded expectations. Well, that's why I say, Adam, the the greatest compliment I can get is a referral of a of a family or friend. Right? But but back to the mortgage company, so there's a 35 day sales process, right, from start to finish. Well, they built in there alright, at this time, you know, at at at this touch point, ask for a referral. Alright? Then at this touch point well, the problem is you gotta read the audience.

John DiJulius [00:40:14]:

You might be calling me up as an account executive screaming at me because I haven't returned your emails or or voice mails or, you know, I haven't let you know that the closing date moved. But today is that day I'm supposed to say, okay, Adam. You know, we'll take care of that. And do you know anybody that could benefit from my services? You know, that's not when you ask. You ask when the client is very happy. But, you know, almost don't have to ask. Right? If you're crushing the experience and you're a resource for and and being a resource for your client goes far beyond just what they, you know, b to b sales, you should know what your client's top three goals are unrelated to what you do for them. And then make the introduction of, you know, people.

John DiJulius [00:41:03]:

You know, you don't want my advice on anything outside of customer experience. Right? I you wouldn't want my advice. Right? But I know someone that does know that. Let me introduce you to them. I think you'll be very happy. Now I got 2 people that owe me, you know, so to speak. But I wanna be the first person you call as my CEO, when you need something. Even though you know I don't do that, I probably know someone that does.

Rob Durant [00:41:31]:

Joan, are you familiar with NPS and Net Promoter Score?

John DiJulius [00:41:35]:

That's when I said Frank Fred Raquel, he's the father of NPS. Okay. He's he's the one that created the earned growth, you know, concept.

Rob Durant [00:41:45]:

I was just curious as to your take on, how organizations are executing that these days.

John DiJulius [00:41:54]:

So so I like it, but that's that's where I go to if you have a business model that can track. You know, if people don't know, it's it's, you know, Rob, how likely are you to recommend us? Right? And, you know, how that works. Well, listen. Let's say you give me a 10, but I look up a year later and you never have. Well, then that really is I I don't wanna measure your intent. I wanna measure your action. And that's what the earned, sales or earned growth or earned sales does. It measures your action of if my my clients are referring and repeat.

John DiJulius [00:42:32]:

MPS is very good. I think it's really good for the business models that can't track if you don't have a CRM system, you know, where you can track it. But I think it's good. I think it's it's good. But something that I was really surprised, I I listen I've had Fred Reichl on my podcast, and something he said last week on a on a on a podcast shocked me. He said if you don't get 90% response rate, which 30% is is is damn good. Right? But if you don't get a 90 percent over a 90% response rate, the the this it's not valid. And it goes back to usually the people that are responding to those surveys are the ones that you really ticked off or you you did save the the the their dog from the burning building.

John DiJulius [00:43:20]:

Right? But the ones that are just, they don't take the time to fill out the survey. They were they're they're survey fatigue. So, you know, that that concerns me a little bit that because I don't think it's possible to get a 90% response rate.

Adam Gray [00:43:34]:

No. The I mean, the other thing with the with the survey is that you you distort the environment by asking the question. Yeah. So, you know, me saying I really like your jumper, you know, your sweater, is not the same thing as you saying, do you like my sweater?

John DiJulius [00:43:54]:

Right. Right.

Adam Gray [00:43:55]:

Because one of them is

John DiJulius [00:43:56]:

very initiating it versus

Tim Hughes [00:43:57]:

Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:43:58]:

Absolutely. And and that's why the, what you said about the the earned as opposed to the net promoter score is so powerful because, actually, it's not just conversation like the interview. You actually, I don't care what your answer is. I care how you actually behave in this environment. And it's exactly that, isn't it? You know, because the fact that all these people intend to refer you and never do, well, it so their opinion is valueless.

John DiJulius [00:44:24]:

What is A 100%. A 100%. Action is is what we need to attract, not, you know it's like asking, Adam, you know, how likely are you to do business with it again? You could say 10 out of 10. But if you never call us again, I don't care about what you, you know, you said on a survey. I care about that it's been 6 months or a year and, you know, you haven't, you know, called us again. So so, you know, looking as a whole of our clientele or your clientele that only 22% re sign or whatever that business model is, that is what's important. So back to the VOO. I tell everyone to find your VOO.

John DiJulius [00:45:03]:

Find that one thing that you have to, you know, have bells and sirens go off when it happens or it doesn't happen.

Rob Durant [00:45:12]:

So where does an organization start? We want to be more customer centric. What's the first thing that we should be doing?

John DiJulius [00:45:22]:

Training for service aptitude. Don't assume anyone has it. You know? And the best way I wrap up service aptitude is it's not your employee's responsibility to have high service aptitude. It's your the company and leaders to give it to them. So put it this way. We would never let a cook, a chef at a great restaurant. We'd never hire someone, you know, out of school and assume they can cook our menu the way we want to. We would never let an accountant or a pilot fly a plane or do someone's books without having the certification.

John DiJulius [00:46:04]:

You have to certify your employees the same way. Not the same amount of hours, but we have to train and certify that you know how to use Ford and that you do Ford. You know how to beat the greet. You, you know, know how to create empathy and compassion and take the test and before we we cut you loose. So, you know, we have a a service aptitude test that we help companies create. Now a lot and then they're easy. You know, if a customer calls and has a complaint, what would you do? A, b, c, d, or e? Now a lot of times, the obvious answer, let's say it's c, is obvious to the new employee. Right? So they're gonna pick c.

John DiJulius [00:46:46]:

But here's the thing. You wouldn't have known or they wouldn't have known to do c on their own. But now they see, oh, we're allowed to do c? Am I or sometimes they won't put c. And we'll say, you know, Bertram, why did you pick b? And, you know, and Bertram would say, because at the last job, I woulda gotten fired for doing c. Bertram here, you we want you. You know, don't punish 98% of the customers for what we're afraid 2% are gonna get away with. We're okay getting take advantage of 2% of the time. I don't think we do, but don't punish 98% of the customers.

John DiJulius [00:47:22]:

So it's a a training opportunity as well and a learning opportunity. So it's it's creating that that that that soft skill, certification like you would for a technical certification.

Rob Durant [00:47:38]:

Where does technology play in this? A lot of automation and, AI and so on has led to more, quote, unquote, productivity. Is that actually getting in the way of, personal relationships, though?

John DiJulius [00:47:59]:

So it can. And and and and the good companies aren't. But, so where where where AI can really be valuable, right, is you have to humanize AI. Now let's take call centers, contact centers, support centers. If AI can take the mundane minutia tasks off my plate and answer your questions in 30 seconds, great. But you have to have now now it takes it off my plate as a a rep, and now I'm free to take care of the things that it can't and and that, you know, you may be of an age that you don't wanna use technology in a self-service kiosk or or whatever. But there's companies there's a a of a a phone company in Canada that charges their you, $10 if you choose to speak to a a customer service rep. Right? They're punishing the the customer.

John DiJulius [00:48:58]:

But listen. If if I can't find the answer of why I have a a a charge on my monthly invoice, I need to speak to someone because I don't I I've never seen this charge before. Or I'm of an age, a generation that just doesn't know how to use, you know, your website or app as well. So that's where it's taken too far. Right? But, you know, the the the real benefit is removing the minutiae, the the the the the stuff I don't like doing on my job of of, you know, answering those questions. The good thing is when, you you know, you you do get me and you ask me a question, it populates the answer for me. So we don't have that pregnant pause of 15, 20 seconds, which is a long time on the phone for me to pull up your answer. It also can, you know, tell me what your ford is by looking in your CRM system, and I can say, how's how's Boston this time of year? Or, did you enjoy the last purchase you had of, you know, whatever you bought while, waiting for, you know, that answer to populate?

Tim Hughes [00:50:09]:

John, there's a, there's a barbers near me, which you can as you're probably aware, I probably I don't go in there very often. And, for years, they couldn't make it, they couldn't make it pay. And it was brought by some new people, and, they put the prices up. And, immediately, and they changed the the service of what they gave. And all of a sudden, we had they had queues around the corner of people, wanting to use it. It it it was amazing to see how, actually, I think they they they they put the price up by 50%. And they do all kinds of things in there, and, not just cut hair for men. They do, you know, they do beards because beards are, like, really important today and, nasal hair.

Tim Hughes [00:50:56]:

They do the waxing and stuff like that. Yeah. They may I don't know. They're not

John DiJulius [00:50:59]:

a hot towel around your face.

Tim Hughes [00:51:01]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean and I I I was talking to the the person, and it was funny because she was actually saying there was another barber's down the road, and she said they've copied my, fake brick on the wall.

Tim Hughes [00:51:15]:

And I was going, I don't think that that that that customers come in and worried about the fake brick on the wall. Anyway, the people up the road were bust, and she's still there.

John DiJulius [00:51:26]:

And so so here's something I like to say. I believe in price match guarantee. Okay? And so that may sound like I contradicted everything I said, but this is what I mean. This is why I want everyone on my team to be able to articulate. We are the ultimate experience and experts at what we do, and we will not be oversold. In fact, if you can find it higher somewhere else, we will raise our prices and match it. And and so think about that mentality. Okay? If you tell me, hey, John.

John DiJulius [00:51:58]:

I spoke to another customer service consulting firm, and they actually charge more than you. I'd be pissed. Right? I'd be like, how? What are they doing? Now it doesn't mean, oh, they charge this much. I'm gonna raise my prices and be I can't do that. I can't say, alright. They charge a 100,000. I'm gonna charge a 101. Therefore, the no.

John DiJulius [00:52:20]:

I have to find out what they're doing. What are they providing to be able to justify that? Are they smarter? Do they have a better methodology? Do they customize better? Do they do better research? And then I raise my game, and then I can raise my prices. Right? You know, it's the same thing with the barbershop is, you know, the salon too. If you tell me there's a salon in in Cleveland, Ohio that charges more than us, there isn't. But if there is, tomorrow, I'm gonna go there and find out, do they have a better chandelier? Do they offer better espresso coffee? And doesn't mean we're gonna raise our prices tomorrow, but we have to raise our game because how dare someone outsell us. Right? And, you know, and that that's I we we choose and our clients choose not to compete in price wars. We compete in experience wars. Lot less players, and it's a hell of a lot more profitable.

John DiJulius [00:53:12]:

So to your point.

Rob Durant [00:53:14]:

And price is just the indicator of the experience in that scenario. Correct. Makes complete sense. John, this has been great. Where can people learn more? How can they get in touch with you?

John DiJulius [00:53:28]:

At the djuliusgroup.com, if you could see how to spell it. Thedjuliusgroup.com. Everything's there. We have podcasts and webinars and a bunch of blah a blog every Wednesday and a lot of free stuff you can download. Fantastic.

Rob Durant [00:53:50]:

We now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode. Get show highlights, beyond the show insights, and reminders of upcoming episodes. You can scan the QR code on screen or visit us at digital download dot live forward slash newsletter. On behalf of the panelists, to our guests, and to our audience, thank you all for being an active part of today's conversation, and we'll see you next time on the digital download. Thanks, John.

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