This week on The Digital Download, we explore why so many great ideas die a lonely death and how a deeper approach to story can save them. Our special guest is David Pullan, Author of "The DNA of Engagement" and Lead Alchemist at The Story Spotters. He helps leaders and their teams turn explanation into inspiration through powerful story-based techniques.

Too many brilliant ideas wither because the communication lacks the strength to support them. This episode moves beyond the common advice to "just tell a story" and looks at the science and art of what truly makes a message stick.

Join us as we discuss questions like:

* Why do most spoken messages fail to land?

* What is the difference between explanation and inspiration?

* How do our behaviors trigger powerful stories in the minds of others?

* What are the stories you tell yourself and how do they impact your success?

With a background in helping leaders package and deliver their messages so that they stick, David has worked with top executives at organizations like Novartis and IBM. He provides the tools to build trust, ensure listeners pay attention, and craft vivid, repeatable stories that spark innovative thinking.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!

This week's Guest were:

• Sarah Jane MacKenzie, co-author of "The DNA of Engagement", The Story Spotters.

• David Pullan, co-author of "The DNA of Engagement" and Lead Alchemist at The Story Spotters

This week's Host was:

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

This week's panelists were:

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of DLA Ignite,

Transcript of The Digital Download 2025-06-20

Adam Gray [00:00:02]:

Hello everybody. Good. I should have stopped. Whoops. I should have started in French or German or something, shouldn't I, Tim? Anyway, good afternoon everybody and welcome to another episode of the Digital Download, the longest running weekly talk show on business. Talk show on LinkedIn Live, now officially syndicated on Tune In Radio through the IBGN network. We're very excited today to have David Pullen and Sarah Jane McKechnie joining us for a conversation about how to have conversations, how to tell stories and how to get your message understood. Yes, and, and we're proudly grasping our copies of the, their, their book, which is for anyone that hasn't read it, a truly exceptional read and well worth some of your time and effort to get.

Tim Hughes [00:00:55]:

But before we bring them on, let's introduce ourselves. Today it's just me and, and Tim. So Tim, off to you. Thank you very much. Welcome everybody and please, if you've got any questions or comments, please put them in the chat and we'd love to, to, to answer them. My name is Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO and co founder of DLA Ignite and I'm famous for writing the book social selling techniques to influence buyers and change makers. Thanks Tim.

Adam Gray [00:01:26]:

I'm Adam. I'm Tim's partner, also co founder of DLA Ignite, Tim's business partner, also co founder of dla. I have to, we have to emphasize that we do, although there would be worse people to be partnered with. Anyway, we're thrilled to have David and Sarah Jane joining us today. The, the title of the show, stop telling stories your audience won't believe. I think that's just absolutely fantastic. So to tell us all more about this and how we can start to tell stories which, which really land with our audience, let's welcome them onto the show. Oh, look at that.

David Pullan [00:02:06]:

And gutenabund. Perfect. I'm so completely out of my depth now. Struggling, struggling even within.

David Pullan [00:02:25]:

Bye. Stop us three.

Adam Gray [00:02:29]:

So I mean I, I was, I was gifted a copy of this book by a friend of mine who, who may maybe in the audience. Jess, I, I must read. Yes, that's right, you must read this book which I, I, I get quite a few books and loads of things that I need to be reading. So it sat on the side for a little while, then I read it. And then the next time I spoke to Tim I said, I've just read this book. Absolutely fantastic. I'll send you a copy. You just must this.

Adam Gray [00:03:00]:

And, and it is, I found it to be a truly enlightening read because you know, we hear so much about storytelling and you know, people doing storytelling workshops in their corporates and you know, it's so important that you tell the story so that the customer engages with it. But actually everything that I have ever experienced in that area has been pointless. It's been stuff that has been blindingly obvious. Although so much so many good ideas in the world are, of course. And it's stuff that has. It hasn't really offered any insights or anything where I thought, ah, yes, I see how that works. So why don't you introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about how you got to coming up with this idea, how the pieces of this particular puzzle fell into place for you.

David Pullan [00:03:54]:

Oh, absolutely. Do you want to? Do you want to. Well, we're obviously David Pullen and Sarah Jane McKechnie.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:04:00]:

Hello.

David Pullan [00:04:00]:

Collectively the story spotters. And do you want to explain about what we do as story spotters?

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:04:04]:

Well, yeah, really our lives sort of revolve around kind in a way that we're always thinking in story. And if we, and we think about it in, in four ways really. There's the stories that you. That you tell. So when we actually start to have conversations and everything, usually we are telling a story or, or there will be stories. There are the stories that we listen for and listen to that making it that can either make an impression on us or the stories that we really want to get out of others. There are the stories that we tell by our behaviors, which is huge. People are taking signals off us all the time because of the way that we're behaving, the way that we're speaking, etc.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:04:54]:

And often we don't really realize that. And then my favorite one are the stories that we tell ourselves. Constant yakity yakety yak. And we have them in. And when we're. The more we have on, the more stress we're under and everything those stories get even more convoluted and sometimes they're not really very useful. So understanding all these different ways in which story affects our lives and it. You think about it, our life is a story.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:05:25]:

We are born, we have this massive story that goes on and then we some we. We go away, we exit. Yes, exactly. We are but players on this world and, and our entire life. And everybody's. Everybody's life is different. We all have our own unique story. Story is of so much a part of the way in which we access the world and we access.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:05:50]:

We access the meanings that we take from the world.

David Pullan [00:05:54]:

And actually that's where the DNA comes in actually. Because it's, sadly, it's not deoxyribonucleic acid, otherwise we'd have a Nobel Prize. But it's, it's, it's DNA in this case stands for Dream, Nightmare, Action. And it's the, it's the sequence that, as Sarah Jane says, we live through our lives of the dream. We have an ambition, a goal. There are things that get in the way of it, which are the, the obstacles, the nightmares, and then the actions that we take in order to overcome those nightmares and get back our dreams. And, you know, that happens on a micro level, like trying to get onto a lovely stream with you guys and then you suddenly think, oh my God, I've got to update. My nightmare is the computer needs updating.

David Pullan [00:06:33]:

I've got two minutes to do it in smashing around. And those are the actions that you take. And it's from a micro level to that, to a macro level of trying to organize an organization or a business or a campaign for your business or a company, whatever. And it came about, I mean, like most innovation, there's nothing original in this actually at all. What it is is a smashing together of ideas. And we've been working in Storyworld for years.

David Pullan [00:07:06]:

Many, many, many years. And Amanda Blanc, Dame Amanda Blanc, who's the CEO of Aviva, who has been a massive champion of ours since she first worked for Groupe Amar, the insurer in France. When she took over at Aviva, there was a, there was a huge structural change there, strategic shift from selling off loads of the business, paying off the share, paying down the investors and stuff. And she basically stood in front of her top 200 leaders and said, listen, this is the strategy. We're swimming down to Canada, uk, Ireland, blah, blah, blah. This is what's going to happen. I can't do it myself. It's up to you to engage the organization in having the conversations that are going to make that a reality, to.

David Pullan [00:07:49]:

To help co create the story, actually, rather than tell the story, co create the story. So she brought us in to work alongside Accenture to create the communications part, if you like, of the heady strategic part. And when it first started off, we were working with a framework called the ABT framework, which was developed by a chap called Professor Randy Olson in America, who's at Harvard, who was an evolutionary biologist. Yeah. And then became a filmmaker and trained at UCL with the. Or usc, I think it was, with the guys Trey Parker and Matt Stone make South park, who have this story structure that if they, in the week that they create any south park episode. They think if the story isn't going right, it's got too many ands in this going, oh, this happened and this, this happened and then this happened and then this happened. Which is a sequence.

David Pullan [00:08:43]:

It's just a terrible story. You need to get more buts in there, more problems in there are more therefores which are the solutions, which creates the emotional resonance of the story. And when we thought about this and we were working with Aviva, we thought, well, it was actually Sarah Jane who said, well, that's like the DNA of life, isn't? It just runs right through us. That thing that we just do on a daily, moment to moment basis, we're.

David Pullan [00:09:04]:

Constantly having to have an idea and then something happens. So we have to actually, we're brilliant at it. Human beings, we have to reverse round and do something else. I mean, we're very clever. We live in story.

David Pullan [00:09:17]:

I think it's about three quarters of a bottle of wine before we turned the DNA into dream, nightmare, action, Written a book. And here we are, just look at us now.

Adam Gray [00:09:27]:

So, I mean, when we spoke previously, one of the things that, that really struck me was that this. So, so often our learnings are things which are very much focused around our business.

David Pullan [00:09:41]:

Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:09:42]:

You know, and, and that's driven by the fiscal necessity of selling more stuff or talking to more people or whatever the realities of that might be. But, but one of the things that struck me in the book is that a lot of this ability to tell stories is stuff which is recyclable in lots of places in your life.

David Pullan [00:10:00]:

Oh, for sure.

Adam Gray [00:10:01]:

So, so, so give us an example of, of that, of where I might. Having perfected these skills, where I might use them in a conversation which proves that this is more than just a work thing.

David Pullan [00:10:15]:

Can I kick off? And then, I mean, because actually I just want to. I just want to pick apart this word story a bit and sort of telling stories because. Because I think that there's, there's something I think we should clarify on that. The DNA structure is a narrative structure. It's a holding pattern. It drives people in the right direction or the conversation that you want to have.

Adam Gray [00:10:34]:

Have.

David Pullan [00:10:35]:

It's a bit like if you imagine you have a Christmas tree, you have a tree in the corner of the room and you can look at it and you think, oh yes, that's a tree. It's when you put the baubles and the tinsel on it, that becomes a Christmas tree. The stories are like the baubles and the tinsel that turn the narrative of the tree into a Christmas tree. So I think that one of the things that we, we've, that we've discovered and we certainly discovered working with Aviva and with a lot of our clients since in sales in particular, we work with a lot of organizations who are pitching for some very global tenders, is that you can, you can drive this, this, this narrative, create this powerful narrative that pulls people into the conversation to which then you add the vivid stories that brings that, that support the data, that support the facts. And I think that's right. I mean it's, it's. Yes, of course it has a. To your point, Adam, it has a, you know, there's a, there's a very hard edged fiscal necessity to do this.

David Pullan [00:11:32]:

But what was that piece of feedback we got from that team that we were working with when, when they said, oh yeah, it worked with the management, but it also worked with. Do you remember that one?

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:11:42]:

Oh yes. It also, it also worked with when, when I was trying to organize my wedding with my fiance.

David Pullan [00:11:50]:

Yes, that's right. Yes, she was thrilled about that.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:11:55]:

And I, and I, I come, I come back to what I was saying really at the beginning. We live our life through story. So it's, it and we, and that story usually is. I'll give you an example. For instance, the, the other day I was determined that I was going to get the half past seven train in order that I could get into my meeting in time. But I'd also have time for. I could pick up some breakfast at London Bridge before I had to go off to my eating right. So hop off 7 train bought the ticket, got to the station, train canceled.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:12:32]:

Who knew? Yes, a dream nightmare. Totally. You know, all my plans. Absolutely. Breakfast, blah, blah, blah. And so that, that, so my action. So I had to change. And we do this all the time in life.

David Pullan [00:12:46]:

I had to change my ideas about that there wasn't another train coming for a while. So I had. Then I had to go kind of ring around and try and get a cab to take me to a different station in order so I can get into, into town in time, sadly, without breakfast. But that was okay. So we are problem solvers. We are constantly solving problems. And each of those ways in which we do it is a story. A story has a beginning where you're into the dream, something horrible happens, like you get lost in a wood or whatever and then there's an outcome.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:13:22]:

I mean it's a classic trope. And yet. And we live our lives around that. We problem Solve constantly, all the time. Something goes wrong, we solve the problem. We have a dream. Something goes wrong, we solve the problem. We're doing it constantly.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:13:37]:

So it is, that's where it's, it came. Because I remember saying, it's like our DNA, it goes, it's like the DNA of life. And then we came up with this thing of, well, we can put this dream, nightmare, action.

David Pullan [00:13:51]:

And Randy Olson said, throw everything behind this. He said, you've got, you're onto a winner there. So we wrote the book. But it's interesting, Adam, to your point, as Sarah Jane tells that the narrative structure of the dream getting into London for her breakfast, the nightmare trains are cancelled, the actions she has to get to another station to get a quicker train behind that are the stories of, oh, so what was it like when the trains were canceled? Oh, blimey, you never guess it. We were actually about to get on and suddenly the guard announced there was a leaf on the line at oxted and therefore everything, you know, so the, the, the stories bring that narrative structure to life. And that's what we do with our clients really is help them find the narrative structure and then, and then the stories that will really, really bring that to life, whether it's internally for change or whether it's for a sales conversation or indeed trying to persuade your fiance that it really is a good idea to have three people at the, at the wedding. So.

Adam Gray [00:14:49]:

That makes perfect sense. So why is it that normally when we try to tell stories in the business context, they don't ever have the impact that we'd hoped for. So we see many instances when people are either talking face to face or they're writing their stuff to deliver to their ideal customer, somebody that they know that they can do a great job for, somebody they know could benefit from them, somebody that they believe would be a really good fit for their organization. This is just more wallpaper that people are not interested in. So, so, so why is that and how do people change that?

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:15:31]:

I think it is. It is. And that's one of the things, you know, we're talking about the different types of stories and one is the story that you, you bring from others. So in order, when you, when you're engaging with that person, first off, it's, it's. Sometimes it's the type of thing that we do is we, what we do is we want to push a lot of solution. We are, or the solution or this is me or whatever onto that person because we think that they need to know everything about us, but actually the, the, the, the. Probably the most important thing to get out of that initial conversation is who are you? I need to know about you. And if I, if I, if I don't know what's really worrying you or, or concerning you or I'm not showing that interest, then you don't have anything to go on anyway.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:16:22]:

Yeah, you know, so, so the, and I think we can get into the trap of over communicating what we can do and not thinking how is it relevant to the other person? Because you're creating a story together, you're creating, you're creating the outcome together in any, in any of these conversations.

David Pullan [00:16:43]:

I think that's right. I mean it's a really good point actually. Adam. And just to sort of build on what Sarah Jane said. That's exactly the problem is that as businesses we're constantly, and you see it in the DMS of the direct, on LinkedIn all the time, people trying to push ideas and solutions onto you and things like that. And you think, have you even considered who I am first? It's like you flagged up a problem or you. I sort of think, do I really have that problem? Or it's not my problem and it's somebody else's problem or here's a solution you think you want. How much for that solution? Well, whereas if you actually connect to the person's ambitions first, which is where the DNA comes in and you say, listen, I get you, I understand what it is you're trying to achieve here and what this means to you and how important that is for your, your focus.

David Pullan [00:17:28]:

But what I'm concerned about is some of the things I'm seeing out there at the moment that get in the way of it. The nightmares. So do you fancy a conversation about some of the actions that would, would actually help you get there? And we do this particularly in the initial rapport, building trust building stages of a relationship. Because the, the subtitle of the book is a story based approach to building trust and influencing change in those early stages of building trust where people are sort of thinking, do I like you? Do you understand me? It's really important to show in that dream section. Listen, I get it, I understand that you want to do such and such and what this means to you. But, but what's concerning me is some of the things I'm seeing that could get in the way of that. So let's talk about the actions and.

David Pullan [00:18:14]:

Be genuinely interested in them from their point of view.

Tim Hughes [00:18:18]:

Exactly.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:18:19]:

Rather than be interested in them because it's going to help you about them. Yeah, and, and it's, and, and that, that so soon as, as soon as you actually create that atmosphere, they will tell you stories and that's gold dust, you know, so, and, and that, that's the thing because, because in a story what you get is how people really feel, what they, what they're really thinking at the moment, that you're getting a sense of who they are. And, and it's, it's a much, much more, it's much a much richer ground to work with. And, and so that you can deliver to them or you can come up with a, an answer or something or, or co.

David Pullan [00:19:02]:

Create the answer.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:19:03]:

Yes, exactly. That's it. It, it's, it's to collaborate. It's not, it's not from any kind of weird sort of needing to know about people for the wrong reasons. It's, but, but it's, it's, it's actually kind of deliberately being interested and trying to find out so that you can, you can collaborate and then you get the best outcome.

David Pullan [00:19:25]:

And you also build trust.

Adam Gray [00:19:29]:

So, so how would, how would somebody begin to do this? Because, you know, we've, we've all been recipients of cold outreach through whatever mechanism, telephone, LinkedIn, email, and should you, and I'm being deliberately cynical here, should you fall prey to that and answer the phone or respond to the email and find yourself in a dialogue with this person, it invariably is loaded with cliches, cliches about them. We're market leading, we're customer focused, we're service orientated. And the questions they ask are themselves little, little gems of cliche like budget. Yeah. Yeah. So, so what is it that keeps you awake? Oh, David and Sarah Jane.

David Pullan [00:20:16]:

Like this.

Adam Gray [00:20:18]:

Yeah, you know, it's, it. And it's coffee. The, the. But, but it's like, you know, that they, they have turned to the cliche book of, of conversation openers and the, the. I guess my, my cynicism is based on the fact these have come out of a storytelling book. You know, somebody's right. Here's how you begin to tell a story with somebody. You begin by saying to them, so what keeps you awake at night? And then they tell you all of their deepest, darkest secrets and their concerns and then you can key into that.

Adam Gray [00:20:48]:

And actually for me, for you, for most of us these days, that's, that's a red flag because you feel, you feel that you're being sold to.

David Pullan [00:20:58]:

You're being sold to.

Adam Gray [00:20:59]:

Yeah, sorry, interrogated. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, so what is the. So how do we turn it from a. That interrogation where it's, you know, me asking question after question after question that are getting progressively more intimate and focused on the problems that you have in. In the business or the challenges you're facing through to something which is much more about letting them speak. Speak and then developing their own story for me to. Me to.

Adam Gray [00:21:27]:

To consume.

David Pullan [00:21:29]:

It's a really good question that you know and I think, I mean this, I mean in itself, this line that I'm about to use now is a cliche in itself. But I think there is a truth in there is that. Is that it's far more important to be interested than interesting. And I think that, you know, we people just by going into that question. So what's keeping you awake at night? You're jumping straight into, into the, into the nightmare section, if you like the, the problem section.

Adam Gray [00:21:56]:

You know, it's.

David Pullan [00:21:57]:

It's. You haven't even bought me a drink yet. We haven't even had starters. And you're trying to sort of like get down to the nitty gritty here. I mean it's really deadly. And I think that, I think the whole people. Your line, you. I always remember you saying to this me early on in when we were starting out, Sarah Jane.

David Pullan [00:22:12]:

Because Sarah Jane started doing this before I, I joined her in the business. And Sarah Jane always used to say people love buying but they hate being sold to. So the more that you, you know, we love to, we love to go to the shops but as soon as somebody comes over or can I do, you know, if it's done in the wrong way, it's. It's deadly and you're out the door in a second. So I think it's. I always remember a friend of mine, great friend of mine who used to. He was the CEO of a big company and said there was a guy from PwC who headed up consulting at the time who just used to get. Come around and just show deep in.

David Pullan [00:22:44]:

He said I'd just like to come around and just have a look at the bit, just see what you're doing up there. I'm just really interested in, in what you're up to, what you're trying to achieve. And there are very few business people who, you know, they might in the back of their mind. I mean they're not stupid. They know that, you know, there's probably some sale coming eventually but most people like talking about themselves and the more that you can, especially with the big ticket sales, just show interest in somebody else about what is it? What's really what. What is the dream? What are you trying to achieve here? And when we're getting. When we. Getting people to pitch or helping people to pitch with their.

David Pullan [00:23:19]:

With big tenders, that's exactly where we get them to start. Say, listen, just try and understand what are the goals there? Which again, I come back to this word permission. It gives you the permission to give your insight about some of the things that you've seen that could get potentially in the way of that or indeed ask them what they're seeing that's getting in the way of that. So I, I think we all have a. We just, we just cut to the chase too quickly. We don't. In, in the book, there's a. I don't know if I can, if I can show it on here, but there's a.

David Pullan [00:23:52]:

Oh, here, this thing here, can you see it? The. The relationship triangle, which. Yeah, yeah, yeah, page something there, which is by John Timperley, page five, which. Who funnily enough was a PwC marketing guy in the Midlands way back in the day. And the stages of relationship that we go through, there is acknowledgement of, you know, we, we acknowledge it's 2 o' clock on a Friday afternoon, I'm going to tune in and there's going to be four people sitting around having a chat about such and such. The next stage we all go through is the understanding. It's the understanding that. Of what it is they're trying to say.

David Pullan [00:24:25]:

But more importantly, do we think they have tried to understand us as well? Have we? You, You. You are the gatekeepers to your audience. Audience. Adam and Tim with the. What you know, what your audience wants. So that. That friend of mine this morning said that that level is like the oxygen of the relationship. I mean, the.

David Pullan [00:24:44]:

You keep feeding that you need to feed the oxygen of the relationship, which is the understanding before you get to respect and trust and bond and all of those things. And it's a. It's. I think people don't spend enough time if something goes wrong. It's basically that level of understanding that you need to keep feeding and people rush too quickly. They want to be trusted, trusted advisor. Because I know what's going wrong out there. It's just too quick.

David Pullan [00:25:11]:

It's also, I think. I think that the element of curiosity is as well, because I think if you don't have that. If somebody says something and you don't say, oh, that's. And it doesn't sort of spark in your head, that sort of. That's interesting, that. But. And and maybe it reminds you of something or something and you can add to the conversation or, or you can ask another question because of that or, or just play back something that they've said so that they say more. Because you find, genuinely find it interesting in this situation, genuinely, you're giving your time to this conversation.

David Pullan [00:25:47]:

And I think probably in many circumstances people don't really understand that, that this is, this is golden time in, in these kind of when you're making a relationship and you need to be able to be a really land that, that clearly in their mind that you are here to understand and, and collaborate.

Adam Gray [00:26:11]:

So, so this is, this is, this is really, really interesting. And I think that one of the things that's, that's very different about this is you're talking about storytelling as, as an intimate conversation between me and you. Suppose I'm in, I have a marketing role and my job is to construct stories that a wider audience makes. So a macro rather than a micro version.

David Pullan [00:26:39]:

Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:26:41]:

Now one of, one of the things that, that I've kind of perceived, then it's, it's sort of understandable is that when you're trying to get people to behave differently, everybody wants the, the, the easy button, don't they? You know, I want to do this thing once and I want everything to turn around.

David Pullan [00:27:00]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:27:01]:

So, you know, we see it when people say, oh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm speaking to a viral agency and they're going to help us create content that goes viral, which a. No agency can claim to do that it's not about your content is about how it engages the audience. But also, you know, we, we have a, a guy that we coached, he works for a large Australian telco. I won't mention their name, but there's only one. So from. And, and he created a post that went properly viral. I think he had six and a half million views, 40,000 likes on, on LinkedIn. And having caught up with him sometime after that, I said, so, so how did that change the landscape? Knowing what the answer was going to be? How did that change the landscape for you? You know, six and a half million people saw your post.

Adam Gray [00:27:47]:

How many phone calls did you get? And the answer was none. Yeah, because actually that's not how the world works. No, but still, we all want a post to go viral and we want the phone that we've been staring at every day for the last six months, we want that all of a sudden to start ringing off the hook. So, so if I'm looking to Create that story based content that people can remember because it's a story and they can share because it's exciting. How do I go about doing that?

David Pullan [00:28:16]:

I, I think the DNA helps you there as well because you have a very. You, you inevit. Well, I was going to say something which I'm automatically going to correct. In a marketing role, I mean, you are sort of trying to hit a big audience, but you have already sort of got an idea about the, the idea of what that market constitutes. You're not writing to everyone, you are writing to a market segment. And I mean we do, we do it ourselves with our writing as well. I mean, you know, a website is a very good example of that. When you do a homepage of a website, you are, you, you are creating a piece of marketing for a wider audience, hoping that that audience, you know, you know who you want to attract.

David Pullan [00:28:56]:

And so you start with the wider dreams that you have experienced. And that, that's the point about actually sort of bringing in your insight. You know, over the years without. When working with such and such clients, one of the things we've noticed they want to achieve is X, Y and Z. And if they get it, then it means this to them. So you get the opportunity to, to tell the stories. You start letting people know that, you know, we've been around the block a bit at the moment. We've actually seen a few things, we've done this a few times and we really see that people really want to do this and it's, it's, it's vital to them because if they achieve it, it means this.

David Pullan [00:29:29]:

But. And then you go into the nightmare and that's that little three word, three letter word which people get terrified of because they sort of think oh, but, but wipes out everything that happened in the first bit there, which is probably true in feedback. And don't do that when you're giving feedback to people, but in intentionally strong. Let's use the word marketing. Because all communication is sort of really marketing, isn't it? Is, it's that intentional marketing needs that directional change where you've connected to somebody and said, and they're going, yeah, you get me, you understand exactly what it is. And then you put in the course correction of going but we've also seen that this can get in the way of it because of such and such and such and such. And you've created there.

Adam Gray [00:30:14]:

Even as you're telling that little vignette, what you're creating there is something that's making us lean forward yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're creating attention. Yeah. Whereas, you know, so often Marcoms starts with the end in mind. It starts with the end, doesn't it? So it says, we provide the following services which achieve the following outcomes and the following benefits to people like you.

David Pullan [00:30:46]:

Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:30:46]:

So the very bit which is going to engage me, the people like me bit, comes at the very end and it.

Tim Hughes [00:30:52]:

Exactly.

Adam Gray [00:30:52]:

I'm going to read all of that.

Tim Hughes [00:30:53]:

Stuff and this is what Sarah Jane was saying about sort of the push versus pull influence. I mean, by pushing all of the facts and the, you know, the benefits and the, you know, the features and benefits stuff at the front there, you're pushing ideas onto people. And, you know, anyone who's done basic physics knows that, you know, you push and you get an equal and opposite reaction. And so, you know, people are going to push back and go, really? I'm not sure I need that. Whereas if you, if you pull people in by saying, listen, we've spoken to people like you, we understand what it's like out there, you're connecting with them. In fact, one of our. It's not in the book because it's something we've started saying since then. We talk about connection before correction.

Tim Hughes [00:31:33]:

You need to connect before you correct. So pull people in by connecting to them. Then you earn this word permission again, the permission to start correcting the course of the conversation, saying, but you know what? We've, we've seen some big things that get. Stand in the way of this. How about we have a chat about how we can overcome those things because we've been there as well. We can help you get back to those dreams. So I think you're right, Adam. I mean, it's an.

Tim Hughes [00:31:56]:

I don't know how this happened, actually, historically. I mean, it must have worked at some point, but maybe to that point that we all get weary of stuff and we start to get weary and wary. Maybe there's a point where we're going, oh, we're getting sold to now, aren't we? Maybe, maybe that's what's happened.

David Pullan [00:32:16]:

We're being all the time, aren't we? Every single media channel. That's the thing where we can't get away with it, away from it at all. And, and it, it influences the way that we speak, I think. So the. I, I think the most important thing is really think about who your audience is. And when I say audience, I mean that one person. What do I need to do? Or how can I engage with that person not in a manipulative way. But in terms of how can I make a relationship with that person on this topic, what is what.

David Pullan [00:32:52]:

Yeah, it is, it is absolutely serving, it's serving the conversation that is going on and you're expect. Because if you, if you go into a conversation thinking this is, I, this is something that I just want, I want this immediate piece of information to come out of that person's mouth. It's, that's very one sided because you're not concerned at all with the fact that there's a partnership here. And I think in our. We are time poor and I think that a lot of time that we get things wrapped out, don't we? And we, we don't have time to think about this. And my, my hope for this book is that it is something that you can just, you can really get into into because it's so natural for us to think about things through this DNA structure that people will be able to learn very quickly.

Tim Hughes [00:33:45]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Pullan [00:33:46]:

Because it's not, it's not complicated. It's.

Tim Hughes [00:33:48]:

It's just needs a bit of practice.

David Pullan [00:33:49]:

It does, that's all it does.

Tim Hughes [00:33:51]:

There's an interesting thing here, Adam and Tim as well. I mean we're actually just this afternoon putting the finishing touches to a secret bonus chapter that we've sort of discovered which we're going to release so that people who have the book can download that later. Because what we've discovered working with our clients on this is as we said at the beginning, this is a great way of building that initial rapport, building that initial trust, you know, especially with people, new people, people who might be skeptical. But then once you build that, built that trust, there are other things there. And if you, if you were to be called in, working with the client where the trust has been built and you sort of said every, every conversation became well what we know that what you're trying to achieve here, they'd be going, hang on a second, we haven't called you in for that. We've called you in because we don't know what, want to know what the problems are. So you can, in like speaking to the converted here, but like a good guitar chord made of three notes, you can invert the D, the DNA in different ways to create different voicings and different effects in different contexts. So it's.

Tim Hughes [00:34:54]:

In that situation you might have an NAD which is nightmare, action, dream. And so we've seen this nightmare that's happening. So what we would suggest are these, these, these things you do and what that will give you is this, but that comes after you. You know, those, those chord inversions of the DNA come after you have built that initial trust and relationship and rapport.

Adam Gray [00:35:17]:

Yeah, I mean I think that it's this, this is really fascinating because the perception that, that I see from talking to companies and individuals is simultaneously that they think that the person they're selling to is stupid. Therefore they thought, they talk down to them and they, they give them a load of platitudes and things that mean nothing. But equally they assume that the person they're talking to understands the landscape and the minutiae of stuff. So they don't talk about the very basics. So they don't build any foundations for, for this stuff. And, and I think that, that, you know, clearly 25 years ago everything changed with the advent of the Internet. So prior, prior to that, if you knocked on my door, whether that's physically or via telephone or whatever, you knocked on my door, you could profess to be the market leading company that does the following things.

Tim Hughes [00:36:19]:

Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:36:20]:

In those days Tim worked for icl, let's say. And Tim could phone me up and say, I work for icl. We're the world's biggest provider of the following services for IT equipment within your organization. And for me to find the competitors would be really difficult.

Tim Hughes [00:36:35]:

Yep.

Adam Gray [00:36:36]:

You know, I couldn't just Google it. I would have to go to a library and I would have to find a directory of organizations in a particular industry and I would flick through them and I would say, see that there's, there's the, the DLA Ignite over here that employs three people and there's IBM over here that employs 500,000 people. And kind of, well, I don't know which one I want and why, you know, and, and all of these, it was, it was really veiled. Doesn't matter where you are in the world, you tell me something and I can validate that instantly. But that's created an environment where when we look out into the marketplace, if I'm looking for it, transformation, companies, sticking with that theme, you know, there are a million of them out there and they all look like they're going to do the job equally well. So how am I going to choose one from the other? So the storytelling part is even more important now. You know, the rapport building and understanding. I'm going to be dealing with you.

Adam Gray [00:37:27]:

I really like you, therefore you're the front runner in this. Everybody understands this. Every salesperson, every customer facing person understands this. Which is why when you say to them, do you Want half an hour in the boardroom or do you want a day at a football match? They go, the football match, please. They understand it's all about relationship, it's all about building trust and rapport. And yet all of the actions they take belay the fact that they don't believe that it's, it's.

David Pullan [00:37:56]:

Do you know that they think the football match will do that for them?

Adam Gray [00:38:01]:

Well, they, they do, but, but outside of the football match, in the board meeting thing, in the communications that they send them, they're all focused on what would go on in the boardroom. At no point did they say, here's a sales scheduling tool. I'm going to send you an email on day one, I'm going to phone you on day four, I'm going to send you an email on day five, I'm going to connect you on LinkedIn. On day seven, I'm going to do this because that's in quotes. Best practice, as we know, just means copying someone else, but that's another story. So that's best practice. And then they begin assuming that you believe everything they say. Five reasons why we're better than our competitors.

Adam Gray [00:38:41]:

Here are three functions that we have that are better than everybody else's. And what they don't do is they don't go through the relationship building bit, they don't go through the storytelling bit, they don't say, you can believe in me and I'm going to take you on that princess bride type story and walk you through all of these fantastical things that you fall in love with. So why is that and what's the easy route in for people to change how they use that in their communication strategy?

Tim Hughes [00:39:11]:

Can I start with that quickly?

David Pullan [00:39:12]:

Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:39:15]:

This absolutely fascinates me because we're not only dealing with Google now, we're also dealing with AI. And funnily enough, I was working with a colleague of ours, I've been doing some work in higher education. We're helping academic academics with their open days and open, you know, academics tend to speak quite academically and they, you know, they, they, they are a perfect example of what is possibly quite bad communication because it's a lot of facts and figures. But, you know, they are now dealing with a situation where somebody can go on Google Maps and have a look at the university. They can probably go on to chat GPT and say, acting as a recent graduation, a graduate of X University, please give me a warts and all download of your experience over the last three years. They go into a situation, into an open day with an expectation of what it's going to be like. They have created the story in their head. So I think that the, the opportunity that we have as human beings to keep ourselves relevant in the face of AI is to create hyper human experiences in the moment with people.

Tim Hughes [00:40:23]:

When we are face to face or when we are online in, even when we are writing our emails or our marketing material. To your point, Adam, is, is how do we humanize those? So it isn't just about the, it is telling the Princess Bride story that you mentioned there. Because I, that that has to be the thing that makes us stand out. It's, you know, the old cliche people buy from people. I mean anyone can make the assertion of it's, you know, we do X and we do Y and it leads to Zed. But that's almost like in filmic terms, that's almost like the voiceover at the beginning of the Shawshank Redemption. What you, what you want is the big close up scene of what is this going to look like? You know, you don't want the, you know, the, the voiceover is great. The assertions about this is what we do are great.

Tim Hughes [00:41:12]:

But to quote Hamilton the Musical, as we always say, we want to take people into the room where it happens happens. Let's, let's have a look what it's going to look like day one, when we, when you were onboarded by us. And I think that's the, that has to be the, that, that has to be the edge that we can have as human beings is being more human.

David Pullan [00:41:30]:

I, I think, I think it's also not only what will it look like, but what will it feel like. And that I think feeling comes before anything because often we can make decisions, can't we? And even though everything says that, you know, from brain function or whatever, that, that we should make this decision because actually that's the right one. If we have a niggling feeling that actually it's wrong somewhere or something starts, we will often go with the feeling and not, and not what the, what all the pamphlets say. And I, and I think that, you know, we'll never get away with that because we're human beings and I think and often we trust our instincts and often they can be right, sometimes they can be wrong.

Tim Hughes [00:42:22]:

We're instinctive and then we backfill.

David Pullan [00:42:24]:

Exactly, exactly. And so sometimes, yeah, we will have a feeling, something and then we make it up in our own head, don't we? About kind of like all the things that will support us Doing justify it?

Adam Gray [00:42:34]:

Yes.

David Pullan [00:42:34]:

In the head, you know. Yeah. And I. So, you know, human beings are essentially. They're extraordinary creatures because we have.

Tim Hughes [00:42:44]:

We should meet more.

David Pullan [00:42:47]:

There's endless possibilities going on in one's head the entire time. And the one thing that we can't get away with is that if we're working in, you know, in business or whatever, we have to collaborate with other human beings. And they too are walking emotions.

Tim Hughes [00:43:07]:

It's funny. One of our favorite quotes is when Anurag Mehratra was the president of Ford India, he said that buying a car is a thousand logical reasons looking for one big emotional reason. And when you think about it, that is so true of most things. It's like, oh, yeah, I can do this and this and this and this. But it just feels great to drive it. And it's true. Whether you're choosing a marketing firm or whether you're choosing a car, whether you're. Even when you're choosing a partner.

Tim Hughes [00:43:32]:

I mean, it's a house to live in. I mean, it's those things. It's like, oh, yeah, well, they own such and such amount and they blah, blah, blah. But, oh, God, I just really like being with them. It's, it's. We're emotional first and then we backfill it with the logic.

Adam Gray [00:43:45]:

Yeah. So, so how, so what can, what can we learn from this in terms of our, our behavior? Because, you know, I'm the same with everybody I ever meet, and some of them love me and some of them hate me, and most sit somewhere in the middle. And I haven't changed in this. So how can I make myself look more attractive to the people that I meet? Whether that's me or my business or my concepts or whatever it is. How can I position this in front of people so that I get a higher strike rate of people saying, yes?

David Pullan [00:44:19]:

Well, it's all about trust. It is all about trust. And that's. And I would say one of the first things is to think about the DNA of engagement as a model where you can start to initiate that trust. It's not going to put anybody's hackles up or anything like that. It's working from a place of agreement. You have to do your homework, but it's working from a place of agreement. And then you get the feeling of kind of, well, if this, if, if whatever this dream is doesn't work, that's going to be a nightmare.

David Pullan [00:45:03]:

And we both understand that. And then it goes on to how, how can we engage to make sure that, that, that doesn't happen. And I, and, or I can be beside you while that doesn't happen. I mean, and it's all emotional.

Tim Hughes [00:45:21]:

It's a funny one this, isn't it? Because I think I completely agree with you, Sarah, but I also think it's. I did. But there, I completely agree with you. And I think it's to do with. I think it's. This strange word vulnerability is coming to my head here as well about, you know. Well, I think that we try to. Well, that my challenge would be is, do you want to appeal to everyone? And I don't think we do.

Tim Hughes [00:45:44]:

I think we want to appeal to the right people. I mean, I think one thing that Sarah Jane and I would say is we've got some really lovely loyal clients and the new clients who come on board with us tend to be the ones who just think, yeah, I want to be in the room with those guys. We're not going to be right for everyone. But there is enough people out there who we will be right for. And to actually say that, listen, we've worked with, you know, role. I mean, we've worked in so many fields, you know, pharma, engineering, financial services, all sorts of stuff. But we aren't for everyone. We aren't for everyone because it's, you know, we, we, we will push you into.

Tim Hughes [00:46:22]:

We call it serious fun. I mean, we sort of, we, you know, they, we will push you. It's our job to push you. We had, we had a group the other day who came to us, a group of leaders to do their very first session with us before, we hope, we think this will roll out throughout Europe. And the CEO came at the end of the day and said, and there was a very, very dry guy who was, who was one of the team. And, and the CEO said, so, so were you critical of each other in the room? Do you actually sort of really challenge it? And this guy said, we didn't have to. And I think, you know, they'd had a good, they'd laughed for those two days, but we had certainly pushed them. So, I mean, it's that.

Tim Hughes [00:46:59]:

And that's not for everyone. You know, it's not for everyone. So I'm not sure if we're answering your question. It's about sort of knowing who you are, understanding yourself, being true to yourself, saying, listen, I'll tell you something here. We both trained as actors originally, years ago, for reasons our bank managers still don't 100% understand. And, you know, 25 years ago, we moved into this world But I still remember something a drama teacher said to me at the end of drama school, said, believe you're the bill at best, but believe it sensibly. Which I. And that was all he said.

Tim Hughes [00:47:34]:

And I thought that's just a great line. It's sort of like, it's like really back yourself. You're good at what you do, but never forget you've got more to learn as well. So I think that there's that, that there's that balance between respect for what you do do, but humility that, you know, it might not be for everyone. And also you can learn every time, you know, we learn about the DNA every time we go out and work with clients on it.

David Pullan [00:47:58]:

Yeah, we do.

Tim Hughes [00:48:00]:

Has that answered the question? I'm not sure it has.

Adam Gray [00:48:02]:

Well, yeah, I mean, I think that the key thing is that this is a, this is a discussion and I think that the, the thing to remember is that in my experience, everybody knows what the right answer is. Trying to do things, you know, they know they need to have conversations.

Tim Hughes [00:48:19]:

Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:48:19]:

Know that they need to build rapport and trust. They know that they need to get the people that they're selling to or buying from them to like them. They know that these are prerequisites of having a successful interaction and a successful long term relationship. And yet they don't do that. So, you know, I often joke with, with people is that every organization in the world says they want to have a relationship based sale. No organization wants a relationship based sale. For the most part they want a sale. And, and it's this idea of almost trying to get a little bit pregnant, you know, trying to do something which is at odds with what you know is going to be the, the right outcome.

Adam Gray [00:49:06]:

You have to go all in. You have to try to do the best job. You have to be as helpful as you possibly can. You have to look for people that are going to like you, that you'll be a good fit with because actually, at the end of the day they make good clients because they're happy with who you are and what you do, rather than you pretending to be something that you're not in order to please what you think they're looking for. And most people understand this and yet so often it doesn't drive their behaviors.

Tim Hughes [00:49:33]:

You know, that's, I think that's. I was having this conversation with a very senior partner at an organization the other day and, and he was talking quite openly about sort of their sales funnel and stuff like that and saying, listen, I'm not sure we've 100% got it right because you know, when a tender comes in, you know, all hands hit the deck and that person becomes the most important person that you could possibly care about. And that's right, but it's also wrong because it can smell a bit desperate because it's like, oh, right, there's an RFP has come out and suddenly we love you and we're going to do everything and it's, it's, it's, everything is focused on it. Whereas there's another one of their competitors. If they lose something, they will identify somebody, maybe a couple of rungs down and say build a relationship there because in eight years time you're going to be the partner who's going to go out and win that. So we've both had experiences of, of coaching teams who've done really, really good marketing pitches that have been beaten by another organization who've basically just spent five years going and having a chat with the CFO and just sort of building that trust and rapport. And you get into a whole question about how people are remunerated and it's quite short termist remuneration around, around, you know, are you hitting your numbers and all that sort of stuff. Whereas if there was some metric whereby you could actually remunerate people for the, for the long game, for the long game in the relationship building, that would, how, how much would everyone enjoy that? The people who, the recipients and the people who were actually out there having to build those relationships.

Adam Gray [00:51:12]:

Yeah, I mean, so, so, so you know, one of the things that we help sales teams to do is to have a huge number of conversations with people. We say you've got to cost the net wide and you're going to have as many conversations as you can because as much as anything else, it gives you choice. If you're in sales and you have one conversation with a prospect this month.

Tim Hughes [00:51:30]:

Yep.

Adam Gray [00:51:31]:

Then that takes on Gargan perform proportions and you have to make something of that.

Tim Hughes [00:51:37]:

Exactly.

Adam Gray [00:51:38]:

If you have five conversations a day, you can have a two minute interaction with someone and say look, it's been really great chatting to you. I've got to drop, I've got another call, I've got to go to. Let's keep in touch and speak again in six months knowing that you're never going to speak to them because the chemistry wasn't there, you weren't a good fit, that you didn't like the ethics of the organization, whatever those realities are. And, and I think that one of the overarching challenges that we see in the marketplace is that organizations and the people within the organizations are so strapped or for opportunities for people they can have a conversation with to build trust and rapport with, that they go back to that playbook. And, and I think you said, Sarah Jane, people, people hate to be sold to, but they love to buy. You know, that's the point. You know, we, we try never to sell. We try to have people buy from us because they go, oh, this sounds really interesting.

Adam Gray [00:52:29]:

How do we move this forward? But, but the, the, the concept of, of storytelling is there as a, and I, we, we're kind of running short of time. But is, is there something that people can do where they can just stack the deck ever so slightly in their favor easily? And I say easily because, you know, you said about practice and you said about, you know, focus and thinking about these dialogues and often I think that people feel they don't have the time to do that. I'd love to build a relationship with you, but get a result today. I'd love to develop a detailed story, but I've got time. I'm too busy phoning people and sending emails and whatever else that actually are not productive tasks. In many instances, however, they're tasks that I feel I have to do because in the absence of any results, I've got to be seen to be doing something. So what, what can they do to just get that atomic improvement, you know, 1%. God.

David Pullan [00:53:31]:

Have you got an answer to that?

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:53:32]:

Well, I, I think using the model, to be honest, I mean, I, I, obviously there's lots of different types of scenarios that we could fit. As you're talking. It's quite broad what you're saying, and there are many different scenarios that could fit in that. But I mean, if, if.

Adam Gray [00:53:50]:

If you.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:53:51]:

Have, for instance, somebody that you know, a client that you know but isn't, hasn't really you haven't spoken to them for a while or, or anything, or they may not, they may not be in the marketplace or anything, doesn't mean to say that you can't, you can't keep in touch with them. And so to have a phone call and maybe something you've read something about what their organization is doing or something, something like that. And you can, that's that theme, you know, you can. Oh, I was reading about that. I think that's, and you, you know, and, and I just thought of you and I thought, I'll bring it because you told about this and then, and then, and then you can use a, the, the. But you Know, and I was thinking about this a lot because I know that in the marketplace there's a lot of stuff going on, negatives, you know, you can, you can, you can put in a kind of a bit of a nightmare situation and then you can again, use the, the, the, the action situation. So I, it's absolutely thrilling to hear about what you're doing and I'd love to have a chat with you, you know, and, and it's that kind of thing. It's.

David Pullan [00:54:59]:

It. Well, actually, even not saying I'd love to, because it's actually happened to us, isn't it? I mean, I mean, you know, we, as, as a. Don't even need to say it's amazing. I mean, as a small business. I mean, we are a small business working with some very, very big businesses. I mean, it's quite real for us. I mean, we have to earn money because otherwise we don't go to the shops on a Friday afternoon. I mean, that's just the reality of it.

David Pullan [00:55:20]:

But, but Sarah Jane is right. It's amazing how often just an email sort of saying, oh, we saw this, you might be interested in such and such. Or here we've been working on this and. Or here's this new book we're writing, here's a copy of it. I mean, let us know what you think of it. It's amazing the number of times that you sort of essentially give a bit of free consultancy away, that you just show that you're interested in you. I suppose the word is care, that you care about somebody and you just. Well, I don't care whether they get back to me because, I mean, I'm doing this because it just feels like the right thing to do.

David Pullan [00:55:50]:

And often they will get back to you. But it's. It can be a bit. I think if anyone gets a sniff of the thing that they're just trying. They're just trying to get a wedge in the door to get a sale. Here we pattern match, match. It comes back to that thing of like, oh, you're one of those people, you're an encyclopedia salesman, are you? And it's called that dates me. But it's.

David Pullan [00:56:12]:

Yeah, but I think, I think maybe keeping that open rather than kind of like, it depends how well you know them. So let's grab a beer is fine if you know them quite well. But I think probably, yeah, let's go.

Tim Hughes [00:56:23]:

Over here because I have a contract in my back pocket.

Adam Gray [00:56:27]:

Brilliant. So thank you so much for coming. To everybody, we're having fun. Yeah, to everyone. In the audience. What neither David nor Sarah Jane said was the answer is simply to buy a copy of this, to read it, to absorb it and then to. So where can I get a copy of one of these from?

David Pullan [00:56:50]:

You can get it on Amazon. So we've got three versions. We've got the. You've got the paperback, the Kindle, and there's also us in your ear old while you're at the gym or walking the dog. You can get it on audible as well. So it's. Yeah, it's got pictures and jokes and it's. Yeah, you can get it in the three formats on, on, on Amazon.

David Pullan [00:57:11]:

And then there are the various other hubs, you know, Barnes and Noble and stuff around there. You can get it on those ones online as well, we should say. It's actually nominated for Business Book of the Year this year as well. So well done.

Adam Gray [00:57:22]:

Fantastic.

David Pullan [00:57:23]:

So, yeah, I'm actually thrilled about the category, which is people, business, management and culture, which is those three things coming together about how do you bring people and management along to build a culture, and whether that's in between organizations in sales or internally within an organization. So we're really happy about that. We get to go to Wembley, put on.

David Pullan [00:57:43]:

We do. I get on a frock.

Tim Hughes [00:57:45]:

I might put on the frog.

Adam Gray [00:57:46]:

Well, thank you so much for joining us today. What a fascinating conversation. It's really, really insightful. And if you in the audience would like to come on as a guest because you have something to say, then you can simply scan the QR code. That's the one I was looking for. Scan the QR code here. I'll get rid of that in just a second. So I don't.

Adam Gray [00:58:09]:

I don't cover you up for too long. So until next week, everybody, thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much indeed, David and Sarah Jane, and hopefully we'll see you all again next week. Until then, goodbye.

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