This week on The Digital Download, we delve into the crucial art of building strong B2B relationships with our special guest, Dr. Ryan O'Sullivan. An author and expert in relationship-driven sales strategies, Ryan brings over 20 years of experience and academic research to the forefront. As the host of the Deal Talk Podcast and a Global Account Manager at Introhive, he has a deep understanding of how strategic relationship building can transform business outcomes.

Join us as we explore essential questions such as:

* Why is identifying key stakeholders the first step to success?

* How can you effectively research and gather intelligence to personalize your approach?

* What are the most effective strategies for engaging with potential clients and partners?

* How does relationship mapping contribute to increased revenue and stronger client retention?

* What are the key components of Relationship Capital, and how do they impact business relationships?

Ryan's unique insights, backed by extensive research and practical experience, will provide you with actionable strategies to move beyond transactional selling. You'll discover how to cultivate meaningful connections that drive growth and foster long-term success.

We encourage you to participate actively in The Digital Download. Share your experiences, ask questions, and contribute to the conversation!

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• Ryan O'Sullivan, Author of Building B2B Relationships, expert in relationship-driven sales strategies, host of the Deal Talk Podcast and a Global Account Manager at Introhive.

This week's Host was -

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

• Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of DLA Ignite,

Transcript of The Digital Download 2025-04-11

Adam Gray [00:00:07]:

The digital download. Oops. Sorry. Bertrand was kind enough to have written it for me in in Spanish, although, obviously, I I butchered that. I can't deliver it with quite the the the panache that he does. So, good afternoon, good morning, good day, wherever you may be, and welcome to another exciting episode of The Digital Download. We are the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live, and we are globally syndicated on TuneIn Radio through the IBGR, network, which is the world's number one business talk news and strategy radio network. Today, we're gonna look at the art of building strong b to b relationships with our special guest star, doctor Ryan O'Sullivan, author and expert in relationship driven sales strategies.

Adam Gray [00:00:55]:

He has over twenty years experience in academic research, and is at the forefront of this thinking. At he's also the host of the Deal Talk, podcast and global account manager at Intraive. And he has a deep understanding of how important relationship building can be to transform business outcomes. So, it looks like it's just you and I and Ryan today, Tim. So over to you. Introduce yourself.

Tim Hughes [00:01:23]:

Thank you very much, and, welcome, everybody. My name is Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO and, cofounder of DLA Ignite, and I'm famous for writing the book, Social Selling Techniques to Influence Buyers and Changemakers, which is the same publisher as Ryan, Brian, has as well, Cogon Page.

Adam Gray [00:01:43]:

Fantastic. Cogon Page, which is the same publisher that we have as well with Amazon. Yes. Yeah. So, we're all like a big family, aren't we? Yes. So I'm Adam Gray. I'm Tim's business partner and cofounder of DLA Ignite. And, this, I think, is gonna be a really interesting conversation today because, relationship building and the importance of building strong, long lasting networks and relationships is fundamental to both what we do as a business and what we believe in.

Adam Gray [00:02:11]:

So, without further ado, let's bring on Ryan. Hi, Ryan. Lovely to have you join us today. And, welcome all the way from from Sunny Nice.

Tim Hughes [00:02:24]:

Bonjour, Ryan.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:02:26]:

Bonjour. Yeah. Thank you. Nice to meet you guys. Pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Adam Gray [00:02:31]:

Fantastic. So before we go any further, do you wanna introduce your yourself and tell everybody that's watching, how you got here and and and why this matters so much?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:02:42]:

Yeah. Well, you did a good good, good version yourself there, Adam. I say I'll just listen to your intro prior to that. So I guess to add to that, you mentioned twenty years. I think the the most important part of that is probably the last fifteen years. I spent nearly nine years with with Infosys, global IT services firm. So that's where I really cut my trade in enterprise complex deals and managing key global accounts. So, obviously, these are very huge amounts of, revenue that that are that we're talking about.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:03:16]:

So that was the first time for the in that field and understanding really the the art and science of how these deals and how those accounts work. That's what prompted my intrigue, I guess, into, people talk about relationships and relationship quality, but what is a quality relationship? You know, understanding the the detail behind that. So I started my doctorate while at Infosys, and, I finished it. And I I moved over to the firm I'm currently at now with which is IntraHive. And I it was almost a serendipitous moment when I was wandering around, the 02, and I saw their their banner that said, in business relationships matter. And that was really my ethos and linked to a lot of the stuff I was doing. And I was already working on my doctorate by then, and I had to stop by, obviously, and got chatting to them. And one thing led to another.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:04:08]:

They they considered me a a prospect before because I was working at Infosys, obviously. But I ended up joining them, which was which was a really great, great thing for me professionally and personally. And they have a software that helps to map map relationships. And and during the course of the five years of working, working here, I've worked on my book, and that's recently published to the back end of last year. So that was a probably an eighteen month endeavor, really focusing in on the specifics specifics thing around identifying and mapping relationships. So that's really the area that I consider my specialty. I think there's a lot of people that that are very well able to talk about the relationship building piece and trust and the rest of it. And, obviously, I've got my perspective there, but the uniqueness of this of of of identifying and mapping relationships is where I think there's a gap generally.

Adam Gray [00:05:07]:

That that's that's very interesting, and it would be great to delve into that a little bit. But but the the title that we have for for the talk is ditch transactional selling, build b to b relationships that last. And it strikes me that in almost all of my interactions with organizations, they pay lip service to the importance of building relationships. They always want to have a relationship based sale, but actually they don't want a relationship based sale. What they want is a sale. So it often percolates down to being something which is purely transactional. So I guess the the first question that I would like to ask is, if it's possible to map relationships and understand how well you are plugged into an organization and how you can get people to influence the decision making, Why bother if as an organization you don't think that relationships are something that you should be focusing on?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:06:02]:

Well, I think if you're coming at it from that premise, as you say, it is it's an interesting point there, Adam. So, I mean, my argument would be that relationships do matter, and the the, the premise if you're coming in from that premise, then it's important to do all of that type of analysis and understanding. But if you are just trying to do a transactional sale, I would suggest that that is a that's a dwindling business, especially in enterprise the enterprise level. So as we're seeing, it's very, very difficult to get sort of net new conversations going, net new relationships built. If you are basically blasting out content to try to to hook someone to sell them something, it's never been as as difficult as it is today. And I say that as someone who's who's who's who's fashioned his trade over twenty five years in new business. So I would say that we kinda people that are thinking like that are gonna have a bit of a pendulum swing back to look. Well, we need to understand what our clients are doing.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:07:06]:

We need to understand what their business is. We need to understand how we can support them with their challenges and opportunities. Only then can you have an opportunity to to sit down and have a conversation. So it's a lot of that upfront work needs to be done. Otherwise, there's no chance to to capture their attention. I think even back when I was researching for my doctorate, this is prior to COVID, I interviewed CXOs, very, very senior people from big global corporations, and I asked them about the the best person they've ever worked with from from the supplier or the vendor side. And they all immediately thought of someone, and we went through, like, what made this person so special versus the rest. And what we realized was that they they weren't describing someone who they thought was a a salesperson.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:07:58]:

They were describing someone that was a partner of theirs, that understood their business, that understood their challenges even before they did and came to them with suggestions and ideas. So that is the that's the pinnacle. And anything that's sort of deviating from that, I think, is is deviating from what what is required to to satisfy very complex and high value clients and relationships.

Adam Gray [00:08:25]:

I mean, that that makes that makes perfect sense. So, from from the notes that Bertrand had prepared, his first question that he wanted to ask was why is identifying key stakeholders the first step to success in this process?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:08:43]:

Yeah. Well, I've got a a story there, I suppose, and I've already told part of it, but I can finish it with my my logical flow was, look, relationships matter. And I think nobody listening to this session today needs to be convinced that relationships matter because they're they're using them and their networks, every day. So whether it's personal or professional. So we all know that. And then I was going to, well, if relationships matter, what is a high quality relationship?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:09:15]:

But I think the gap there was before you start to evaluate the quality of your relationship, are you talking to the right people based on the specific use case? And, I mean, we can talk about business. We can talk about the priorities. You can you sort of map accounts. But even if you're looking for an on a personal level, you're looking for to move jobs. You're looking for we were just talking earlier about, living in France or or Italy. If you're looking to go on holiday somewhere, you need to identify who are the right people that can help you first. So identify them, and that's the mapping part. So identifying and mapping.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:09:56]:

And if you don't do that, you're really missing a trick because, you tend to gravitate towards the people who you already have relationships with, but they might not necessarily be the people that are important to the the the priorities that you have as an individual. And whether it's finding information about a trip to to Tuscany or whether it's understanding how you can develop a conversation with the head of data analytics to to to to to to propose some services. So I think if you don't take that seriously and have that as the North Star with everything else you do, then it's going to be difficult.

Tim Hughes [00:10:37]:

Because if you take, Kerry Cunningham at Six Senses, research, one of the things that he's found that in large b to b enterprise sales, people will go away and do their own research. And then they're, you know, 70% of the way through the buying process, then they'll they'll get in contact with the company. But part of that research will be using their relationships to say, you know, I've got a short list of a b c company. I know Steve in a, and I know Geraldine in b, and I know Cynthia in c. And they ring them up and they say, so what's it like there? You know, what are you doing? And and, you know, how's it going? And so part of the research process is is actually taking into account existing relationships. They don't ring salespeople. They sit they they ring people who they know will give them an honest answer. And it's interesting that that that Kerry actually has that in in in his research.

Tim Hughes [00:11:40]:

So relationships and ongoing relationships are so important if if if if we're to believe the data.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:11:49]:

Yeah. And I think that scenario, you're talking about the other side of the table where they are leveraging their relationships before they go through the typical, you know, the old not even typical, the the the traditional sales cycle, you might say, which is the first thing they do is is click on a request to hear from a salesperson. So, yeah, that that that supports the the whole ethos, I suppose, of of networks and relationships are are gonna be even stronger. And I think the multithreading piece comes in there, so it extends from that on the client side and then on your side.

Tim Hughes [00:12:24]:

So but if if you look out over, LinkedIn, you know, we're in a situation where nobody wants to talk to salespeople. And and what they do is that they put up as many barriers. It's not just about having someone to stop phone calls coming through. It's to stop the emails, you know, e even spam coming through on LinkedIn, etcetera. Nobody wants to talk to to to salespeople, but the conversation that we see on the sales side on LinkedIn is how they're turning to manipulation to get to to to get in front of people, whether that's using ChatGPT or the latest, hack or whatever that's that's that's gonna get through to people. Then if they actually get through to people and and actually have some level of conversation, I think just the fact that someone's spoken to you, that's now probably deemed as being a relationship. Whereas if, you know, if someone's not ghosting you, then then you must have some you know, if if if you can pick up the phone to somebody. But I I what is your definition of a relationship?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:13:28]:

Well, yeah, I think in that scenario, a a relationship is a two way communication. So what I was I was on a panel recently, and we talked about with, talked about one of the early mistakes we I made or, you know, that was after question to the panel, one of the mistakes you made early in your career. And one of the mistakes I made was thinking that if you if you liked each other and appreciated each other, that was a relationship. And it may well be two people that appreciated each other's time and find, you know, pleasure in spending time together, whether it's grabbing a coffee or lunch or whatever. But is it a business relationship? So I'd like to distinguish between having a relationship, which is two people that enjoy each other's company, and having a business relationship. And a business relationship is is very different, especially in an executive level. So this is about back to what I said about the doctorate. This is about understanding their priorities and being able to help them solve help them solve their problems.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:14:35]:

That's when you're elevating or differentiating yourself from the others. And you may and like I say, the example I gave in early in my career, I may well be meeting senior people. And in my in in my the mistakes I made is that I assume that because we were meeting and we were having pleasant experience, that that was a relationship. But I completely missed the point. It was almost it was almost a a an escape for for him from his from his his his day to day life to meet and have have a pleasant conversation. And then he goes back into it. I wasn't understanding his business and and aligning what I could do to solve his problem. So I think a lot of people slip into that, whether it's the small talk or the rapport building, and you can find some commonalities.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:15:24]:

And that's great. But you it's a very different scenario when you need to be understanding their business and driving change for them and them bringing you into their team. It's not a salesperson and a supplier relationship. It's look. I've got this problem, and I need to to solve it. That's, you know, the the famous what's keeping me awake at night even though you should never ask that question. But, this is this is the the this is what people want want from someone when it and that's when it transcends transcends into a real, what I would call, business to business relationship.

Tim Hughes [00:16:00]:

And and the key thing about a salesperson, as you always know, is that they have a credit card. So you know that if you're talking to a salesperson, they'll usually either buy you a coffee or lunch. So

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:16:09]:

Exactly. Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:16:10]:

But but is there isn't it the case, though, that you have to have that I enjoy spending my time with you bit first? So, you know, the rapport building is crucial because every person that has a a potential solution to my problem will ask me questions like, although they won't use this expression, of course, what's keeping you awake at night? You know, what are your big challenges? What are the five things that you need to change this year? Whatever the the the the questioning route they choose to go down. And most people who are senior in organizations have got people queuing out the doors that want to ask them this question in order that they can map their solution to this person's problems. Yeah. So isn't the first step still as it always used to be? You know? I actually quite like you, therefore, I'm gonna give you some of my time. You know, we've done we we share a passion for football or guitars or whatever it may be, and and that's the basis on which we get to know each other. And then when we've got to know each other, I'm more likely to listen to you when you speak and believe what you say.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:17:18]:

Yeah. Precisely. So back to the doctor of research. So there's a there's a there's a thing I called in in my, thesis called mutual disclosure. So it's this stage between you don't know someone and you trust each other. So there's something magical needs to happen. You're starting to describe it there, Adam. And when I did the analysis from all the people I interviewed, the the thematic analysis.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:17:44]:

So these were the the themes that were there across all of those interviews. There were three things, and two of them sort of not to do, and one of them was was, was required. So the first one was do not sell, you know, believe it or not. So when they were describing the people they wanted to build a relationship with, they do not want to be sold to. So and we know that ourselves. I mean, we're all salespeople, but we know when someone's trying to sell to us and you have a rejection of it. So that's very difficult. And I think a lot of people struggle breaking that that that breaking that down that barrier.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:18:22]:

The second one was, not to do as well, clash of personalities. So they they talked about, look, sometimes people don't click. And if you don't click, there's not much you can do about it. So if you understand that going in to a relationship and you can understand their personality dynamics, you can maybe do some social profiling. You can, you can adapt the language and communication style to suit them slightly so you can overcome that one. And the third one was having some some type of knowledge to offer. So whether it's sort of industry expertise or whether you're at work at you're you're a junior person on a project that's important to them, to understanding the detail about what's happening, the specifics. So some type of knowledge or, value proposition for something that's relevant to them.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:19:10]:

So that's when you've gotta link it to a problem or a priority that they have. So when those three things were present, you you enabled the opportunity for the relationship to come. And and, of course, rapport building's there. Nobody's saying any different, but you need to do that. But that alone, what doesn't justify a a real business relationship whether we want when I did those interviews, we would all like to be described as the the the person these these executives were describing. And and it's very difficult, obviously, to to get to that level, but that's really what the pinnacle of of what a relationship is. And and I think it starts with the rapport building, and I think a lot of people are good at that. But you can if if they can sniff out that you're trying to sell to them, you you've lost them.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:19:59]:

And I think a lot of people fail there. And I don't have the answer to to, like, the secret formula to avoid that I'm afraid. But I think we we all we all know when it when it when it's being done to us and we've all seen it in action. And it's very it's a very difficult dance to to to play.

Adam Gray [00:20:16]:

Absolutely. I mean, that that do not sell idea is is, is something that we say quite a lot to people, you know, when when we're teaching people how to create content or how to develop a conversation with somebody in in the digital space. You know, as soon as you start selling, you know, it it it's like me are proposing to you and I've only just met you. You know, it seems massively inappropriate. We we might end up married, but, actually, there's a few steps between now and then. And and, actually, this idea that that you you must wait until it's appropriate to to have that conversation. So, we need to identify key stakeholders, but one of the challenges, I think, again, shown up from Kerry Cunningham's research is that, one of the challenges that we're facing today is that there are an awful lot of people involved in the buying decision making process. You know, there's there's a bunch of people that are the the key stakeholders and the decision makers, so the CFO, the head of procurement, you know, those kind of people.

Adam Gray [00:21:17]:

There's a whole lot of people that are are, on the face of it, the the technical experts, if you like. So, you know, we need a new CRM system. Therefore, we need to talk to the head of sales, I mean, the head of process and head of whatever. And then there's a whole bunch of people that are from the outside looking in kind of pretty much invisible. So I don't have a role that means that I'm an expert in CRM, but I've sat through six CRM systems being implemented at other companies. So, actually, we should we should call him into the meeting to have a conversation as well. And there's there's a bit of that going on. So so how how do we cast the net wide enough to try to to capture all of these people, but not cast the the the net so wide that we're talking to everybody in a 5,000 person company that we want to to to sell our product or service to? How do we swap it?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:22:08]:

Well, I've got a short, medium, and long answer to that one. I'll try and combine combine it together. But I think when I talk about mapping, I'm talking about this, say, from a prospect account level. So you've got this is an account that we've identified as as relevant for our portfolio. We would like to do business with them. You've got a a deal sort of level. So you've got maybe an RFP coming or they've got some type of request from the client, so that's more like a deal. And then you've got your typical account management movement.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:22:42]:

And I think the account management and the prospect account is is a bit similar in in my approach, which is you need to identify who the key buying personas are across all of your service lines. So if you're looking at an account without any opportunities, you're just saying, look. Let's let's assess the opportunity here for us to do business. I'll give you an example. We're just doing done some analysis for a big US bank, and they've got literally hundreds of thousands of employees on LinkedIn. We've done that analysis across their 12 service lines, identified the key buying personas for each of their service lines and all the executives that are relevant across those service lines, like the CIO, CTO, CEO, different different regions. And we we distilled it down to, 312 stakeholders that are relevant in this, you know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of per persons of companies. So that's where you can distill down to the to the right people to have a conversation with about your service line and your proposition.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:23:43]:

And, obviously, then you're doing some analysis about what are the right service lines, look at the business context, doing all the stuff we've already talked about. But then when you get into a deal cycle, which is, I think, where you were coming out of this from, Adam, so then you kinda run into, like, all the other people that are involved. So you would have the the typical, the the the different three layers that you described there. So I suppose the key part is to get someone, as a as a champion. And I think if I look at the deals I analyze, even in the book that I think you've read, Tim, I talked through some case studies there, and then there's been many others that I I don't didn't write about. The one common theme to all successful deals is a champion or champions on the client side. If you don't have some something like that, it's very difficult to navigate your way around. And I think to answer some of the questions about the hidden the hidden executives or the the processes or all the other stuff and who's fighting for you, the competitive landscape, not that people are dis disclosing anything confidential too much, but it's also if you don't have someone fighting, guiding, and advising on the inside, it's it's very tough to win, and they would give you access and insight into what's happening.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:25:01]:

But also, what they will do is they will navigate the way around for you to connect to those relationships. And and I'll I'll I'll finish with two two more points. One is that if you don't have, people like that that are willing to work with you to help connect you, it's very difficult. But if you do, it's so much easier to get access to the right people when it's coming from someone inside the organization. Rather than you leveraging your network, which is which, you know, which I I evangelize, but you know someone a a warm introduction. So but it's still outside in. The key is to have people on the inside that are willing to support you. And on on this same same, example I gave for the US Bank, what this is a prospect account, and they didn't really have any relationships.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:25:52]:

And we've done that analysis, and we've we've managed to figure out that, this is a big IT services firm. They actually, they actually had a 20 something people that currently work for them that used to work at that bank. So they've got immediately not everyone's relevant. Some of them left twenty years ago, but a good bunch of them are are c level or senior in the current supplier firm, but used to work there. So they are a great avenue in. And then the the the contrary, so you've they had over a thousand people that used to work at their firm and now works in the target organization. And you start to do that analysis, and then you see where who from your firm can connect with, you know, their their ex boss or their ex colleague, and, look, this is what we're trying to do. We've identified those stakeholders.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:26:42]:

And in this scenario, I think 30% of them were in one city in in The US, and I think 60% were in four cities in The US of those two and 312 stakeholders. So you're starting to piece this together and, be able to be very strategic and think very differently to the traditional model. And that is really what I'm trying to evangelize, and I call it the panning for gold stage. So I said I had a short, medium, and long answer. I think that was the long one. So

Adam Gray [00:27:10]:

No. That that's that's that's brilliant.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:27:12]:

But I I do

Adam Gray [00:27:14]:

I am concerned that for people that are in the sales organization, this sounds very complicated. You know, it's it's like, well, previously, what we've done is we've got a list and we've sent emails. And you would imagine that in 2025, that wasn't the norm, but it still is the norm. Yep. You know? And and what we're gonna do is we're gonna use AI or automation to send hyper personalized emails, and we're gonna make sure that we get you on LinkedIn and on your mailbox and on Facebook and we'll do some Google partner ads to you all at the same time so you can't get away from us because that's gonna be even more attractive, isn't it? And but but what you're doing what you're talking about there is significantly more sophisticated. This is like saying, okay. There's there's a big group of us. Some of us came from there.

Adam Gray [00:28:03]:

Some of them have come here. Let's look at those connections and how those plug into both organizations and how we can start to take advantage of those those relationships that already exist. And, you know, everybody that you worked with twenty years ago, you have nice feelings about them because we've all got rose tinted glasses most of the time. But I think that for many, particularly enterprise organizations where there's a very rigid sales structure and there's a very much quarter by quarter driven revenue requirement, This sounds like it's incredibly complicated. It's not a good use of your time because we need something which is gonna land this week or this month. And and I guess in many instances, you know, Tim and I come from Oracle, two hundred thousand person company. But there's an awful lot of people in Oracle that have come from the companies that we're trying to sell to and vice versa. And even identifying those people would be a gargantuan nightmare.

Adam Gray [00:29:03]:

So so how do how do organizations take these first steps to make this doable rather than just a nice idea?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:29:11]:

Yeah. So I I hear you, and I think about my time back at, Infosys. And I I've I was in the new business team, and what I would do is is draft an email, relevant email, do a bit of what you would call today, sort of personalizing it, and, send out maybe twenty, twenty five emails to specific people. I'd get five to 10 come back. That would turn into five meetings. And over the course of the next six to nine months, I would open up, you know, one of those accounts, and that was that was very straightforward. And I know from from experience in the market that today, that has just drastically changed. And you're sending thousands of emails and no one's responding.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:29:55]:

So it's very it's a very, very different dynamic at the moment. And I think what I would say is, is I don't have a a great answer to, like, a silver bullet. What I would say is 80% of the revenue tends to come from 20% of the salespeople. That's what I used to do previously, and that was successful to me. I've had to move with the times. That does that wouldn't work for me now. I've tried it. I'll tell you, it doesn't work.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:30:24]:

So you've got to do something different. And I think with the advent of AI, the advent of automation, this ease of getting access to, to our target, personas is only going to get more and more difficult. Like Tim was saying, the the the gates have gone up. They're doing their own research. They're coming to you when they're ready. So that's what's happening in the background. It's invisible to you. So if you want to take control of your own business, I think you've got to put the hard work in.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:30:55]:

And what I did before was the hard work, and I think this type of analysis, and this type of, mentality to leverage what I would call intelligence gathering versus research because everyone's got their own I mean, the AI can now create very personalized content research. We it sounds great, but nobody's reading it because they're getting so much of it. So now I would argue the last bastion is intelligence and leveraging relationships, and it's not warm introduction. This is what I talk about. Warm introductions are great. They're tough, but if you could and they're usually to senior people. I can see you're connected to this the CFO or CXO. Can you introduce me? That won't work.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:31:40]:

So you've got to go to more junior so called junior people for the intelligence gathering about what the dynamics are, who else they're working with, pitch to them maybe, and work your way up. So I think that is the the, the the strategic way to do it, but I think it's it is practical as well because anyone with the tools available to even with a basic LinkedIn license, you can start to do that type of analysis. Obviously, with software like IntraHive, it makes it a lot easier because we're analyzing the internal relationships and capturing all of that. So, that's easier. But I think there's no easy answer to get the pipeline firing for quarter by quarter deals, and I think we're seeing that across the software market. It's it's it's it's never been as more difficult. And, I think the the sales that shift from a sales pitch for the impact that the software will have has has sort of faded since COVID, and now it's very much proving the value. And a lot more questions are being asked about the impact that the software has had or will have, and questions are being asked from exactly the way Tim described.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:32:49]:

So before people are making decisions, they're already gathering whether this is the right move for them. So there's no happy answer, I'm afraid, from my side to make this easy and, suddenly get the the deals and the pipeline going.

Adam Gray [00:33:04]:

Yeah. I mean, we we don't believe in silver bullets, and we're forever writing about the fact that there's no easy fix for any of these issues. You know, it it all boils down to to hard work. But it it strikes me when I say me, I mean us, that every person in sales didn't go into sales to get 50% of their number. They all went they all went into sales to be successful and earn a really good salary. Although humans are hardwired to be lazy, I. E. Take the easiest course of action, salespeople are no lazier than anybody else.

Adam Gray [00:33:43]:

You know? They they they work hard. They work late into the night. They carry a huge amount of stress. They're very used to dealing with rejection and all of the things that come with with that. So we're assuming that that they're committed to the company. They've got great industry or product knowledge. They're working really hard. They're cranking the handle on their machine as hard as they possibly can, and they're still failing.

Adam Gray [00:34:09]:

So what what are, what are the mistakes that organizations are making that they're not able to leverage this? Because, you know, with LinkedIn, as you said, you know, you've got access to every person that's employed in a b two b role on the planet at your fingertips. So it should be making things easier. But, actually, the world's a much more difficult place than it was for you twenty five years ago. So what what company is doing wrong?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:34:35]:

Well, I think, yeah, you've just touched on a couple of points where it and I'll come back to what I said earlier, which is the differentiator from the good versus the average or the Pareto rule, and and you give the example. I mean, you go back to your Oracle days. I'm sure it was the same that 20% of the people were delivering 80% of the revenue. So they were doing something different. You know, they're they're not magic magical. So with the advent of AI and automation, it's basically making it easier for the rest to do what you were doing because they can personalize. And they basically looked at what the good people were doing and helped you do that in an easier way, but it's then made it obsolete in effect. That's what I'm seeing.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:35:25]:

And so you need to think differently. And if you've got companies that are looking to, to solve this problem, I think I mean, I'm I'm obviously biased, but I would just go back to the the the human element of the relationship side. And I know this is the the stuff that that you talk about as well as a differentiator when you're trying to build net new relationships. People are looking to have a a personal connection at least with someone on that level, and that's the rapport piece and the the the the the the matching of sort of personality styles, if you will, or at least interests to to be a catalyst for something else. And people will always help people if they don't feel that they are being used or this is some part of a transaction. And I think we're all human. So how we how we can leverage that? So I say I guess, again, the it's not a great answer that was that will solve solve world hunger, but I think it's really a case of using the human element to try to do the best you can and build relationships with the right people in the right way. And, again, back to doing the hard work unless you've got such a great product with such a great market fit with such a great, content and messaging that they are they are figuring this out for themselves and the leads are coming in.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:36:54]:

I mean, that that is the the ideal scenario. That's the promise of of a great and and effective marketing strategy tied with social media elements where you're posting stuff and people sort of get that. You build a a a profile online, and people buy into that. And then they're coming to you because you've built that trusted persona about a specific problem statement. And then you've got some people coming to you as as they're getting into the the deal cycle because we do see that. I mean, there's there's another stat, isn't there, around, like, only three or 5% of the people you ever speak to are actually in the market to buy anything at that particular time. So 90 plus percent of them, It's not even the right time for them to buy. So hitting that sweet spot, I think, is key.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:37:44]:

And I that's I'd argue marketing, the right marketing strategy combined while including, social media, persona based and, building a persona linked to the trust and, and market problem to to generate leads from at a mass scale would probably be the right way to go.

Adam Gray [00:38:08]:

Yeah. I mean, we, we we often kind of wrestle with this, you know, the idea that, so few of the people that are out there that appear to be a good fit for you are actually in market to buy at the moment. And that's why that don't sell thing is so important because we've all been chased around the room by a salesperson that's trying to grab hold of us and wrestle us to the ground. And, actually, when that happens and you don't buy because either you don't want to or you're not able to at that moment, you never want to engage with that person again. So the point of being friendly and approachable and helpful and and and generous with your time means that you're much more likely to get a conversation at some point down the road. But I think what you said about, you know, the eighty twenty, 20 percent of 80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your your your team. So you look at the the 20%. You see, what are these people doing that are outperforming, and then we'll get everyone else to do that.

Adam Gray [00:39:05]:

What happens is it's still the same 20% even when they're all doing the what on the face that seems to be the same thing, it's still the 20% that are doing it because they either are better at building trust, better at building rapport, better at engaging people in conversations, better at listening, whatever those skills are that they kind of inherently have. But but an interesting question is that that what you described is potentially a longer path to sell something, but it's a more sustainable path path to sell something because more people stay on the journey. So as a business, in between me starting behaving this way and me starting to reap the benefits of behaving this way, I need to have some things that measure my the fact that I'm on the right path, that I've got more people engaged, that I've got more people listening to me, that I've got more people having conversations. So how do I measure the ROI of the the salespeople or customer facing people's relationship building efforts? Because that sounds like that's a bit airy fairy, doesn't it?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:40:12]:

Yeah. I think hard metrics would be meetings. I think that's a good one, isn't it? So are you meeting these people? And emails, not so much, but definitely meetings. And I know a lot of I mean, obviously, the clients I deal with that is sometimes a metric that they use. But then one one that you often see, I mean, I know one of the one of the big global consulting firms we were joking recently about, they understood that, and they did a, a campaign to say, look. We want to get people out meeting people. And what people did is when they realized it was a KPI, they just went and met the people they already knew. So let's just say, right, I need to make 10 meetings.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:40:56]:

I'll go and meet these 10 folks I know. So they can game the system that way. But the point is if you're meeting people, that's good. But new meetings, so that's that's another dimension on the same thing. Which people are you meeting for the first time? And again, you can say, well, it's hard to meet people for the first time. And it is if you're cold call, if you're blasting emails and cold calling, but through your existing network. Again, I'd go back to that. So I think those two would be a good, lead indicator as to, like, what are people and then you can see who are they meeting, what's the profile, what happened in the meeting.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:41:32]:

So they that would be a good one. Number of meetings, a number of new meetings, and then analyzing where they fit in the, like, the ICP and the typical buying personas. Yes. Sorry.

Adam Gray [00:41:43]:

Go on, Tim. I was gonna say,

Tim Hughes [00:41:47]:

what what you were saying earlier on, Ryan, was about going out and doing research in terms of who are the people that you need to contact. And I think everybody will do that regardless of whether you're gonna outspam them or or call them. Then there's gonna be some sort of process where you're gonna try and get conversations in the account and and and and and because it may be in a situation where the people even don't even know they have the problem. So from a new new business perspective, you know, Kerry Cunningham, it comes from, well, I I already know that I have a heart problem. Whereas you may be in a situation where you need to go and tell the person that they've got a heart problem, and they actually don't know it yet. So so and and as you go through that process of talking to people and that, in the book, you you actually start talking about mapping out the people, don't you? And actually doing that physically on a on a on a piece of paper or on a PowerPoint slide. Why would you do that?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:42:48]:

Well, that if that's I suppose that's even easier. If you've got a solution that you think is relevant to a specific industry and key buying persona through through LinkedIn, you can find the exact people you need to talk to pretty much globally, regionally, vertically, whatever you however you want to do it. And that's back to what I already mentioned, which is now you've got the exact people. So how do you get to them? So you want to have a conversation with them. You can send them a LinkedIn message. You can send them a cold e email. You can cold call them, or you can be a like, the chest, not checkers aspect as what I described. So now you know who they are.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:43:28]:

You can do a bit of research on them, the the company. And if you've got a a compelling proposition and maybe you've delivered it to a peer of theirs in the market, you've got a case study, you You can start to make some content like that if you wanted to sort of build up a bit of a social pros social, presence about that specific problem. But, also, you'd be then leveraging the the, intelligence gathering aspect aspects that I described. It's like, who do you know in the organization that can get you to that person? And what I what I would suggest, and I mean, I do this often is, of course, you can send them a LinkedIn request and a message. But the this when I'm talking strategy to to clients, we would spend maybe three, four months to get to that one person. And it does take that amount of time and you get to them in the end, but you get a very compelling conversation. Because by the time you get there, you may have spoken to two or three people in the organization or more and in their team and have a very, comprehensive understanding of their business. And by the time you walk in the door, they're already aware of who you are and why you're there.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:44:34]:

And they're thanking you for, for, for your time rather than here's another sales person trying to pitch to me. So again, it always defaults back to the same story, which is try to take the slow down to speed up.

Tim Hughes [00:44:48]:

But in but in the book, you talk about actually sitting down and mapping that out, don't you?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:44:53]:

Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:44:54]:

So so why would you sit down and map that out? I I totally understand what you're saying about going to people, and that can be difficult to actually you know, it can be a campaign just getting to an individual. But why would you sit down and map that out?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:45:07]:

Well, because you need a north star, don't you? If this is your strategy and say if you're running a campaign for this specific solution against a bunch of accounts. So for each whether you're mapping it out at an account level, you know who where that person, who you want to talk to sits in the organization, who else sits within their team, who else she knows. You start to build that profile. What I would suggest in that scenario is if you've got a list of, various different companies that fit the profile, you would you would map out where who the people are and where their exist existing relationships are to to prioritize which ones you target first. So that would then help you to to to understand these are gonna be a bit easier for me because there are already some existing relationships in that ecosystem that we can leverage to get into that organization. So if I'm understanding the question correctly, that's that's that's the purpose of of the mapping is to have that understanding. And then if you are serious about it and you've got a campaign being run at an organizational level, when you're transmitting your progress internally, then you need you need these the data points to articulate the process. So as we've said, there's a lot of pressure on on success.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:46:27]:

But if there's no success, you need to justify the by by the process you're going through. And I think through that level of depth and analysis and and, preparation and execution, people will be confident in what you're doing and give you the more time to follow it through. Because I think if you aren't able back to some of the stuff maybe Adam mentioned earlier, I'm connecting the dots a bit now. If you're under a lot of pressure to deliver and the results are hard to come by, you need to have a a very structured approach that people can buy into and support and then say, right. Carry on. We know we're backing you on this. So

Tim Hughes [00:47:07]:

So what you're saying, if you're running a very big account, you need to map on paper or PowerPoint the people that you're talking to and where they fit in. And you do that not just because it's good for you to to understand where things are, but because it it it it's about your professionalism back into the company to show them that they that you actually understand what's going on.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:47:28]:

Precisely. But also, yeah, you need you you can't manage this in your head, can you? So whether it's an account as you're describing now where you'd be taking multiple things, you know, whether you're running a campaign to take a solution to the market, whatever the activity is you're running, you need to have a plan and you need to structure the plan and you need to be able to articulate the progress on the plan in various ways. And if it's all in your head and you're bay you'd be on the back foot, wouldn't you, if you're if you're trying to justify lack of success, but you haven't got a structure to the process, I don't see how you can operate.

Adam Gray [00:48:10]:

So so the way that you've described this, it seems it seems blindingly obvious. You know? Clearly, this is much more likely to deliver the outcome that organizations and the people in them want. But it also strikes me that there's a huge gulf or potentially a huge gulf between getting buy in within an organization and actually executing this. So how can organizations and the people in them ensure that everybody's aligned behind this view and way of doing things? Because it strikes me that that so often what we see is people are being effectively, a good metaphor for this is people are being clocked in and out, but they're also being measured and resolved. You can't have it both ways. You know, either you want me to achieve what you want me to achieve or you want me to work eight hours a day, but you can't say you need to work eight hours a day and achieve this because if you don't achieve this, you're fired. But if you work eight hours a day and you don't achieve this, you're still fired. So you you've you've got to pick your measurement criteria, haven't you? So, like, what's the how how are you gonna align people behind this?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:49:21]:

On on, the the internal on the supplier side, you mean?

Adam Gray [00:49:27]:

Yeah. So so I'm trying to sell to your company, and, and I'm trying to, I'm trying to enforce this as a way of doing things within within the business, but not everybody is behind this idea. Lots of people are still, are still driving based on the old metrics or the old way of doing things or or these things that that, as we said, haven't don't work anymore. I'll send a thousand emails. I'll send 5,000 emails. I'll make a thousand cold calls.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:50:02]:

Yeah. And your point around to the I I guess if people aren't delivering, then they go, what are they doing? So this is what's happening now. There seems to have been a shift in the industry and linked to we aren't meeting our goals. So what are people doing? How many emails are they sending? How many meetings are they having? What else are they doing in between? So that is a trend that I'm seeing as well, I think, across the market and the software that now is being deployed to capture that. I guess it's it's it's down to down to the results that that that you see, and we talked about the end result, which is the the success. But if you've got the the small wins along the way, those conversations, that are happening, those tidbits of information that are coming, those that confidence that has been built through those conversations, and you'd have to just articulate that those are the the small wins that are the breadcrumbs to to the the success, I suppose. But if people on on the other on the other side are just basically blasting the emails and nothing's happening, and if people need to do what works, don't they? And I think so if in the two scenarios you're describing, if there's one where they're doing the traditional the the the most common practice way, which isn't working, and you're approaching it in a bit more sophisticated, methodical, strategic way and articulating the the successes, then I think that will gain gain, support. But, again, it has to result in success, doesn't it? So Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:51:45]:

I mean, we we have had I I certainly have spoken to a number of salespeople, not a large number, but a number of salespeople that are high performers. So they are they are exceeding their number, but they are being vilified internally for not sending enough emails, going to enough events.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:52:04]:

Oh, right. Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:52:05]:

We so it's like okay. So you whatever you're doing is working. It's working for you. It's working for your clients or it should be working for everybody, Yet the KPIs that are so ingrained in the organization as measurement of sales process that aren't working, you're not achieving those. Now a sensible leader would say, well, we need to throw away the rule book because, actually, what this person's doing is delivering the results that we need. But they're not. They're punishing that person for investing their time not in those those, granular tasks, but in things that are clearly working.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:52:42]:

I look. That's this is a real pet peeve for me. I am, you know, I'm not in sales ops. I am, a salesperson myself, so I I feel that feel that person's pain. And I don't I don't think it's it's isn't it it there needs to be a complete rejection of that in my opinion, but I'm not sure that's the way that that the trend in the market's going, to be perfectly honest.

Adam Gray [00:53:07]:

And that's and that's a really a really worrying concern, isn't it? I remember that that, Tim cracked a joke about this ages ago, and I wrote a blog about this the other day. And he said that you need to be really careful about what you measure. He said most high performing salespeople buy, drive a Porsche. Therefore, if you buy a Porsche, you'll be a high performing salesperson, which is obviously a ludicrous thing to to think. However, that's a lot of what we're seeing. So I I had a little bit of a spat with somebody, on LinkedIn in in the comments the other day when they were saying about this what you need to do with these new tools that are available because 20% of or 90% of top performers do this thing. Yep. But that's 90% of top performers buy a Porsche.

Adam Gray [00:53:59]:

They go and buy a Porsche. It's the same thing, isn't it? Where, actually, what you need is a robust behavioral change rather than simply the application of a tool.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:54:11]:

Yeah. And I think this is gonna keep us thinkers busy for definitely the rest of our career because there isn't an easy answer, is there? So I don't think it's down to metrics. I think this is a question of, look, if if it's not working, what are you doing? And understand that. But then maybe the metrics that they're suggesting won't necessarily work either. So, I think the this like, we keep hearing about AI is gonna it's gonna change everything, and I think it will, but not in the way people think. I think it's gonna it is gonna make the traditional role obsolete. You see a a lot of trends in especially with the big, the big box firms that are moving to much younger, more inexperienced salespeople, I'd say. So that's because they're cheaper.

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:55:05]:

So that will then with the sales process, and they're betting big on that, but that is a shift more towards transactional sales. They know what the clients know what they want, so they're gonna come in, and it's more just managing them through that sales process. So it's, it's gonna be tough.

Adam Gray [00:55:22]:

Indeed, it is, but interesting times ahead. So, Ryan, thank you so much Thank you. For coming on. It's been absolutely fantastic having you as as part of the show. It is, it's been brilliant you sharing your insights, and I love the fact that that this is data backed research, your findings, rather than just an opinion. Because let's be honest, everybody's got an opinion on stuff.

Tim Hughes [00:55:47]:

So what's the what's the, name of your book, Ryan?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:55:51]:

It's building b to b relationships, how to identify, map, and develop key stakeholder relations. The green

Tim Hughes [00:55:58]:

thing on the back there?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:55:59]:

Correct. Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:56:00]:

And where can we get close?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:56:03]:

I think Amazon's the the easiest place for global audiences or the Kogan page website, slightly cheaper there. But, if you want Kindles, things like that, go to Amazon.

Tim Hughes [00:56:12]:

Okay. Thank you.

Adam Gray [00:56:13]:

So, where can people get in touch with you and learn more about what it is that you do?

Ryan O'Sullivan [00:56:18]:

LinkedIn, I think, is the easiest thing for me. I don't I don't have too many other channels, so I'm always happy to chat and connect on LinkedIn and discuss further one to one as well. This is a topic close to my heart, and it's been a pleasure to to spend the the last hour chatting through with you guys.

Adam Gray [00:56:35]:

Thank you very much indeed. So, you can visit the digitaldownload.live/newsletter to subscribe to our newsletter. Normally, Bertrand that chairs the show would put up a QR code now and let you scan that, but I unfortunately don't have the QR code, hence the fact that it'll be better next week when Bertrand is back. So, from our panelists, thank you very much indeed. From everyone in the audience, thank you very much indeed, and we'll look forward to seeing you again at the next episode. So until then, goodbye. Thank