This week on The Digital Download, we're focusing on the transformative power of listening in organizations. Our special guest, Howard Krais, Co-Founder of True, will share his insights on building winning cultures through effective listening. With over 25 years of experience in employee engagement and change communications, Howard brings a wealth of knowledge on how listening can drive real change in the workplace.

Join us as we explore questions like:

* How does effective listening improve organizational performance?

* What are the common pitfalls in corporate listening strategies?

* How can leaders foster a culture of listening in their teams?

* What practical steps can organizations take to enhance their listening practices?

* Why is listening crucial for successful change management?

Howard has a rich background working in senior communication roles at major companies like Johnson Matthey, GSK, and EY. He co-authored "Leading the Listening Organisation," which explores the importance of listening for organizational success. Tune in to gain valuable insights from Howard's extensive experience and learn how to harness the power of listening in your organization.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• Howard Krais, author and employee engagement expert and Co-Founder of True

This week's Host was -

• Rob Durant, Founder of Flywheel Results, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of a DLA Ignite,

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite, and

• Tracy Borreson, Founder and CEO of TLB Coaching & Events, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Transcript of The Digital Download 2024-06-28

Rob Durant [00:00:02]:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of the digital download. The longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live. Now globally You do just came up

Adam Gray [00:00:18]:

now, haven't we?

Tracy Borreson [00:00:19]:

I really have. I was gonna say, look how smooth it is when we just let Rob say it.

Rob Durant [00:00:25]:

So smooth. The longest running, business talk show on LinkedIn Live, now globally syndicated on TuneIn Radio. Today, we're talking about how listening leaders drive real change. We have a special guest, Howard Crace, to help us with the discussion. Cofounder of True, a company focused on helping organizations build winning cultures, Howard has over 25 years of experience in employee engagement and change communications. But before we bring Howard on, let's go around the set and introduce everyone. While we're doing that, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend, ping them, and have them join us? We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience so audience participation is highly encouraged. Right.

Rob Durant [00:01:25]:

With that, introductions. Adam, would you kick this off, please?

Adam Gray [00:01:31]:

Hello, everybody. I'm Adam Gray. I'm cofounder of DLA Ignite and, very much looking forward to today. I'm always looking forward to the show. You know, I find every 1 of these shows fascinating, because we always have really interesting people on. So as normal, I'm looking forward to the show.

Rob Durant [00:01:48]:

Absolutely. A quick pause. Andrew joins us. Good morning.

Tim Hughes [00:01:54]:

Hi, Andrew Swessner.

Tracy Borreson [00:01:55]:

Hi, Andrew.

Rob Durant [00:01:56]:

For those listening, we waved to Andrew and it's reported that Andrew waved back. Alright. Thank you. Tracy, good morning and welcome.

Tracy Borreson [00:02:09]:

Good morning, everybody. I am Tracy Borreson, founder of TLB Coaching and Events, where we're all about authentic marketing that works and generates ROI. It's not just a cost center. I'm a super proud partner of DLA Ignite, and I love listening. Well, I also love talking, but I love listening. So I'm gonna practice that 1 today.

Rob Durant [00:02:29]:

Excellent. Thank you. Welcome. Tim.

Tim Hughes [00:02:33]:

Hi. Welcome, everybody. I'm Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO and cofounder of DLA Knight, and I'm famous for writing the book, social selling techniques to inter influence buyers and change makers.

Rob Durant [00:02:44]:

Excellent. Thank you very much. Myself, I am Rob Durant, founder of Flywheel Results. We help startups scale. I'm a proud DLA Ignite partner, and I'm famous for writing the book, The Social Enablement Blueprint. Stop pitching and start selling.

Tim Hughes [00:03:05]:

Okay. Listening, they're all holding up a book copy on that script.

Rob Durant [00:03:10]:

Yes. Thank you so much for your support.

Tracy Borreson [00:03:13]:

I know. I feel like I'm at my parents' house, so I don't have my access to my book repository. I can't, like, hold up any.

Rob Durant [00:03:20]:

And it was Although to be fair,

Tracy Borreson [00:03:22]:

I do not have the hard copy of Rob's Secret.

Tim Hughes [00:03:23]:

But but, Tracy, for the for the people listening, they didn't know that. No. Did they?

Adam Gray [00:03:27]:

But they do now.

Tracy Borreson [00:03:29]:

I like to be authentic. Did you hear that in my intro?

Rob Durant [00:03:32]:

There we go. Alright. As I said, this week on the digital download, we'll speak with Howard Grace. Howard has a rich background working in senior communications roles at companies like Johnson Matthey, GSK, and And he coauthored leading the listening organization, which explores the importance of listening for organizational success. Let's bring him on. Howard.

Tracy Borreson [00:04:03]:

Hey. Welcome, Howard.

Rob Durant [00:04:05]:

Good morning and welcome.

Howard Krais [00:04:07]:

Good morning, Rob. Hi, everyone.

Rob Durant [00:04:09]:

Howard, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about yourself, your background, and what led you to where you are today.

Howard Krais [00:04:18]:

Yeah. Sure. So, as you said, you know, a lifetime really spent in the field of employee communications, which is not something that when you're when you're studying, when you're thinking where's my career going to go, you think I know I'm gonna go into communications and engagement. It's not really something that most people know about until they fall into it, but I fell into it. And, and I stayed, and I I've worked in those companies you mentioned and other big companies. And about 18 months ago, decided or less than 18 months ago, decided it was time to do what so many others do, I guess. And and with my partner, Anne Marie, we set up True. You know, so business aims at particularly helping businesses through change.

Howard Krais [00:04:57]:

I think change is done really poorly, and there's lots of data to support how poorly organizations go through change, not bringing their people with them on that journey. And for about the last 6 years, I've been working on this topic of listening with, with a couple of other colleagues, and we we produced it came out of an event we were at and I've just had the chance to have a chat about what did listening mean. And I was I was a bit worried at that time, 6 years ago pre pandemic, that, companies well, communicators weren't listening rather than companies. You know, with this as, we were seeing budgets being cut, travel budgets being frozen, people so how as a communicator, if you don't know where your audience is, how how can you, you know, how do you communicate effectively? I happened to go to an event, they ran a session called Open Space. Some of you will know Open Space where you can really talk about anything. And and with, with a couple of colleagues that was in Copenhagen, Denmark. With a couple of colleagues, we came back to the UK and we decided that, actually maybe there's some work to do around this topic of listening. It seemed to resonate with folks.

Howard Krais [00:06:05]:

And then over the next, I don't know, 3 or 4 years, we we produced 4 reports. We did some best practice work. We did a small survey. We did a large survey with about 500 different businesses around the world, and then we did some focus groups. And then we thought well, well surely we're done now and then someone, I'm not don't remember which 1 of the 3 of us said, well, maybe we'll do a book, and that was the the next thing. And and then the book came out, the end of last year, December last year. So leading the listening organization, and, really, it's been a whirlwind tour over the last 6 months, sharing this message with with with particularly with communicators. But, you know, the the job that we have really is how do we get this into a wider circulation? Because it's not just around communicators.

Howard Krais [00:06:51]:

It's also, you know, there's lots and lots of people in the sort of HR talent world who have responsibility for and and a stake in listening, and most of always for leaders. You know? Where where I think the work has taken us is where we started thinking about this as a communications thing and where the book the book's called leading the listening organization on purpose because it's a leader thing, and, I'm sure we'll get into that in the discussion. So over the next sort of 12, 18 months, I really would like to see how how can we make this on lead get this on leaders' agendas as much as on comms people and HR people type agendas.

Rob Durant [00:07:28]:

Excellent. Thank you very much for that. And that book again, listen leading the listening organization.

Howard Krais [00:07:35]:

And we have

Rob Durant [00:07:36]:

a few copies displayed on screen now. Thank you both for that. Alright. So, Howard, let's start with a foundational question. How does effective listening improve organizational organizational performance?

Howard Krais [00:07:53]:

Yeah. I think I think many ways. And and, you know, the headline in terms of performance, first of all, I think it helps leaders make better decisions. The leaders recognizing that, they don't know everything, finding the people that do know things, and then listening to what they have to say, which should help them to make better decisions. 1 of the things I think is important to say about listening from this get go is that this is not about democratizing decision making. Leaders make decisions, but they can make better decisions if they listen to the people who know more than they know. I think in many companies, you see this old fashioned hero leader culture sometimes where leaders sort of feel they have to know everything. They have to have an answer for everything.

Howard Krais [00:08:39]:

In the book, we call it the parental trap. It's a bit like when you're growing up and you say to your your your parents, why do we do that? And they sort of say to you, because we do. And and it's a little bit like that in organizations sometimes. Yeah. So I think that the, you know, we need to sort of recognize leaders should be good leaders say, I don't know everything. I can't possibly know everything. So I go and find the people who do. That helps me make better decisions.

Howard Krais [00:09:04]:

That's

Rob Durant [00:09:05]:

on the

Howard Krais [00:09:05]:

that that's at the headline level. I think, secondly, people when you when you think about 1 of the things when I'm doing events and I I start with the thing says, think of a time when you personally felt listened to, personal life, professional life, wherever, how does it make you feel? Or how does it make you feel when you're not listened to? Because you're talking someone who's multitasking, they're on their phone, they're they're looking at the sports scores, or whatever it is. And you know that you feel valued. You feel good when someone listens to you. It's a natural thing from childhood, but we feel good when we listen to. We don't feel good. We feel angry. You know, different types of emotions when someone doesn't listen to us.

Howard Krais [00:09:44]:

So when the organization listens to us, we feel good. We trust it more. We feel more engaged. And if we believe in engagement, then I think we feel the benefits of engagement that come, you know, in terms of staying longer, performing better, you know, not being off so often, all of these things and more come you know, listening is a big contribute has a big contributing part to that. But I think also, you know, in terms of risk, you know, in the UK at the moment, we've seen a very well publicized scandal with our post office, in America with Boeing, and others and others and others where you see whistleblowers at the you know, causing topics that these companies would hope had had never come out. Because in the post office case, for example, they willfully decided not to listen. And and it's not like people haven't been telling them you're getting this wrong, the people that were impacted by it, but they decided not to listen. So, again, listening is a big contributing factor, I think, to to risk management, as well.

Howard Krais [00:10:51]:

And so, you know, you're seeing all of these things just from performance. I mentioned change earlier. I think listening is critical in change, listening to people's worries and concerns, questions, suggestions. That helps you to build resilience. That helps you to go through change in a better way. So, again, I think a huge part of where organizations are. Most companies I know also have innovation quite close to their set of values or wherever. But how do you innovate if you're not prepared to listen to to other people? New ways of doing things.

Howard Krais [00:11:26]:

And I think if you look at the development of diversity, equity, and inclusion, for example, you also see at at the heart of DE and I is a desire to make better business decisions by listening to more diverse voices. So, again, listening is fundamental as part of that as well. So it's it's everywhere, and it's the right thing to do. You know? Why would we not want to listen to people? What why is it we believe we know best all the time?

Adam Gray [00:11:55]:

So so let let's assume that I'm a leader, and I absolutely buy this. And and 1 of the things that we see a lot is that, we we we position a concept in front of a a client or a a prospect, and they go, yeah. Absolutely. I buy into that. But there's a huge gulf between the conceptual idea and how you're gonna execute on that concept. So listening. A great example, you worked at, GSK. So it's a massive company, and yet Tim and I met at Oracle.

Adam Gray [00:12:30]:

Massive company. And you've got a company like that, and it's really important that the the leadership gets to listen to the people across the organization. But there are a whole host of challenges. So firstly, there there are multiple layers. I tell my boss, who's Tim. He tells his boss, who's Tracy. She tells her boss, who's Rob. And Rob is too busy doing other stuff to tell you because you're not listening, because you're the guy that runs it all.

Adam Gray [00:12:55]:

So so first of all, how what's the mechanism for listening in a large organization? And, and how how do you create a culture where and it's not about whistleblowing, but it absolutely is about me as somebody at the coalface having difficult conversations with you, somebody who's multiple layers above me, and say, I'm deeply unhappy about this and here's why. Where I realized that, well, I don't I don't fear that me giving you that information is a career ending conversation that I'm having.

Howard Krais [00:13:32]:

How long have we got for

Rob Durant [00:13:36]:

Howard, we're listening.

Howard Krais [00:13:37]:

Yeah. Well, I mean, they're they're not they're not quick fixes. I mean, let let's let's try and try and keep it sort of short and, because all of these are are really good points, Adam, and they're and certainly in the book, we cover them. So no particular or just the order I remember from what you've said. How so I've worked I I mean, look. Leadership, this is why we say it's it's all about leadership because it's leaders who ultimately, I think, set the direction for things like culture, the way we do things around here. So if leaders don't listen, if leaders are, you know, don't don't see that you know, they see it as extra, and I'll come back to that in a second, then it's gonna be a challenge. And and, you know, when we've been presenting and people say, you know, communicators, for example, we get it, we support it, but my leader doesn't listen.

Howard Krais [00:14:26]:

How do we change that? It's very difficult. It doesn't just happen. 1 of the things we did in the book, is that, actually, we had some help from a a Canadian academic, and she did some work for us. And she looked at about 18 different, business schools, around the world. The top MBA type schools in US and Canada and Europe and and so on. And looked at how many times listening is mentioned as 1 of their in 1 of their courses, in 1 of their sort of course titles. 18 schools, 1 mention, and that was customer listening. That's not entirely surprising.

Howard Krais [00:15:01]:

But what that tells you is that aspiring leaders, senior leaders of tomorrow are not being where they're taught about communications at all, they're taught about projecting 1 to many. They're not taught about listening. So we do have a challenge here. Now I've worked with some amazing leaders. They get it naturally. They might need, you know, a bit of help, but they get it. They understand that, you know, their peep bringing their people with them is a fundamental part of leadership. I struggle myself with people who say, I haven't got time to communicate as a leader.

Howard Krais [00:15:32]:

I haven't got time to listen as a leader because what what else should you be doing as a leader would be my challenge. Isn't that what you're meant to be doing? If you don't bring your people with you, what is it that you're leading? So so I think, you know, I I'm not I'm not making light of it. It's a real challenge for us. It's probably the biggest challenge. And we do go in the book around what does AAA passive listening culture look like? What does an active culture look like? How do you move it? And there are many, many, many ways. I think we list in the book sort of 21 different methods of listening. So there's lots of ways of listening. For me, though, it's about mindset.

Howard Krais [00:16:08]:

The tools and the mechanisms come after. In many companies, unfortunately, what we see is we do a survey, you know, the annual survey, and therefore, we listen. Well, that's not true. You know? There there's many companies, I, you know, I I I'm very pro good surveys, and I'm very anti bad surveys. And my experience in some of the companies you've mentioned is they do bad surveys, but they do surveys and it's the way we've just always done it. And we're locked into this process and it becomes a process and it's not actually helping you to improve because of what people are telling you. You're not actually listening to the voices. So so, look, I think there's lots of ways of doing it, but we have to start with leaders.

Howard Krais [00:16:52]:

We have to find leaders who get it, and we have to use them as role models and then, you know, other people follow suit. And in some of the places, I worked with a brilliant, brilliant CEO at Johnson Matthey. She listened. She really believed in her people, and, amazingly, then her leaders, her team, and the team below that, they got it too because they could see the direction it was going. So it's not easy, but but we need to find those people who are who are gonna help set the, show us what's required, I think.

Adam Gray [00:17:23]:

So I I watched the Tim talk that you did, and, that was really fascinating. And and 1 of the things that you said in that, and I love this expression that you used, which was survey fatigue. You know, surveys are a really good idea, and you work within an organization. And, you know, you you suffer from survey fatigue, because you're asked so many questions. Explore that a little bit because Yeah. Surely, if you're if I'm if I'm setting surveys, I'm asking for input. That's good, isn't it?

Howard Krais [00:17:54]:

Yeah. So I I, yeah, I I don't believe that that is the the real meaning of survey fatigue, actually. I think that I'm I'm not I think if we believed that we were that the the things we said in surveys were listened to and acted upon, even if it's not the specific things that I say, but I could see that the big theme coming out of a survey was x, and therefore we're going to fix x, and I could see it being fixed, then I'm more likely to come and answer the survey the next time. I think survey fatigue means I'm fed up with surveys that mean nothing, that nothing happens with. And if I could see that actually they made a difference and that action happened, I'm more than happily keep responding because I see a value in it. So the fatigue is really because it's just, you know, it's just an exercise. It's just a, it's just a process.

Rob Durant [00:18:48]:

We have a few comments from the audience. We have a LinkedIn user who says, love that the explanation about leadership not being a democratic position, but good leaders listen leading to better outcomes. Janine Jackson shares with us, thank you for sharing insight about difficult conversations. I'm a sales leader from South Africa. And goes on to say 100% love taking your people with you and the listening advice. Another LinkedIn, user goes on to say, yes. Bad surveys make things worse because organizations use them without doing the research required to gain understanding of the impact of the outcomes of the survey input. Andrew joins us again saying, are we now trying to humanize leader rather than running an organization by committee and dictating policies? And Stephen Welsh.

Rob Durant [00:19:49]:

Yes. And it's a question of replying to surveys. Listening and acting on it avoids fatigue. Mhmm. Some great comments and and, please keep them coming. Howard, I wanted to ask you this though. Does an organization well, let me preface it with this. I cannot envision many leaders when asked point blank, do you listen? Saying no.

Rob Durant [00:20:16]:

But does an organization need to have a formal process for listening to really confirm that they do in fact listen? Yeah.

Howard Krais [00:20:28]:

III increasingly think so. I mean, I I'd also say my own view of, of of what I've been doing for the last 20 years has shifted quite a lot, you know, in terms of comms and engagement through the work I've done on this. And, personally, this may not be a particularly popular view, but I, you know, I'd I'd almost been all the channels and tools that communicators just take for granted, intranets and newsletters and so on, and just focus on dialogue and and conversation and listening. And the more that we can do that, I think, the more that we'll find people who are coming with us on that on this journey. And 1 of the things that actually we've developed, you know, in the book, we have AAA sort of a listening a template for, a listening audit. So come you know, to help people to to, you know, look at how they're listening. And, actually, some work that with 1 of the other co authors, Mike, we've we've done is is to now take that and say, how how can you actually say to leaders, you you may well think that you're listening okay because you do a survey, because you may be visible in in some sites every now and again. But but you probably have a very different view of, you know, to what employees actually think, and there's probably quite a gap there.

Howard Krais [00:21:41]:

And I think sometimes as leaders I I think, you know, we call the first chapter of the books called the age of listening, and and I talk a lot about that. Why I think now is the right time to be talking about this topic. Now why I think that actually it's it's more than just a sort of a nice idea, but actually making a big difference. So I do believe the leaders will increasingly think I need to be doing this, but I don't know how to or I don't know if I think we're doing it because we do a survey twice a year or because we have networks or whatever, I assume that we're doing it well. But I think if you said, so show me where things that you've listened to have helped you make better decisions or have changed your mind or where you've learned things that you didn't know and how you've sort of shared that with colleagues, I think that when you can get into those conversations, then you can start to get people think, yeah. I can I can actually do this better?

Rob Durant [00:22:30]:

You mentioned that audit. So what are the common pitfalls in corporate listening strategies that the audit may help uncover? What are they getting wrong?

Howard Krais [00:22:44]:

Well, I think because because they'll just assume that they are listening because they do a survey. You know, III have a my definition of listening is is in a sense, in a nutshell, is hearing, but then responding appropriately. In a sense, the definition of listening is is feeling that you've been listened to, if that makes sense. And, otherwise, I think it's just being heard rather than listened to. So responding appropriately for me is both words have to work. So you can respond, but not appropriately. So if you do a survey, and again, this is my experience in some of the companies I've worked in, I know it happens in many others, where you do the survey, but by the time the wheels have sort of been turning and all the data's been crunched and it's reported to the senior team and then rereported and the next lot of presentations come out and Christmas comes, you know, it's 3 months or more before you start to share some very high level responses with with the audience. I don't think that's appropriate.

Howard Krais [00:23:41]:

You know, if I ask if I ask you, you know, particularly these days, why am I not hearing tomorrow almost? Yeah. Because the technology can do it. So I think you have to respond and you have to respond appropriately. And appropriately doesn't mean necessarily anything happens as a result, but I feel that I've been listened to. I've sat in a room with with really good CEOs with about 20 people, and those 20 people come out an hour later really thinking that they've been listened to even if, what the CEO was very clever at doing is saying, why can't you do something about this? I don't need to or the company doesn't need to, but you could do it. You're empowered to do it. They just didn't know that they could or they were waiting for someone to to push them. But they come out feeling that they've been listened to.

Howard Krais [00:24:25]:

There is no action necessarily, but it's appropriate because in that in the context of that conversation. So III think that, you know, that's that's sort of the standard I would want to hold companies to. Do people feel that they've been listened to? Do they feel that they have a voice? 1 of my other, 1 of my other co authors, Kevin, said this, and I've stolen it from him, but I still give him the credit for it, is that until very recently, I think, there's been a lot of work around the topic of, employee voice. And what's the difference between employee voice and listening? It's not much difference, really. I think we're talking about much the same thing. But I think what it is is that until recently, the onus was on the employee. That's where where we were with employee voice. And I think, Adam, as you sort of were hinting at the things like psychological safety and, you know, do I feel that my voice, I can do it? Do I want to

Tim Hughes [00:25:19]:

do it? Put my head above

Howard Krais [00:25:20]:

the parapet and say something. Is it gonna be, you know, well received? Is it gonna make a difference? Now I think with listening, the onus is on the organization, to to probably achieve similar sorts of goals. But it's changed the sort of responsibility from the employees of the organization, which I think is a good thing. And it's not just about surveys. There are many, many ways of listening, as I said. And, the employee and and the comms and the HR people and the leaders need to get together and think, what are the best things for our organization? How do we bring together, you know, the voices that are gonna help us perform better? And I think that that's that's the challenge we have today.

Tracy Borreson [00:25:59]:

I think, 1 of the things that's coming up for me is, like, in a lot of different shows, we end up talking about values, human values, and corporate values. And when I think about a lot of the values that you see on people's websites, I can't think of 1 where I saw listening. Right? And you and you it's it's interesting though because you see see things like cares about people and and those types of things. And then you look at some of the underlying activities that show people that you care about people, and I would say listening being 1 of those. And it's it's interesting that it doesn't seem to be making its way into clarity for people. And, you know, like a couple of people said, I I don't think anybody goes into their day being like, I'm not gonna listen to anybody today. But what I would love to just explore some of the things that if we are people who care about listening and people in the audience are listening and being like, yes. This is something I wanna bring into my organization.

Tracy Borreson [00:27:03]:

What are those things that distract us from doing that?

Howard Krais [00:27:09]:

Yeah. I think I think there's just, you know, time as much as anything. It's like it's too it's too much effort. You know? We've got so much to do. And and to some leaders, this will feel additional. This will feel like it's going to take more. Now I I would argue in change, in big change situations, transformation situations, that if you if you put in place the right things to to allow people the space and time to work out what that change means for them, to feel that they've been listened to, as I said before, with their concerns and their questions and their suggestions and their ideas. If you do that, I think you'll get to where you want to get to much quicker and in a much more sustainable way.

Howard Krais [00:27:48]:

But I think I can understand too that by by saying those sorts of things, you know, for the leader who thinks I will communicate, but we'll do a town hall and we'll do a, I don't know, an email from the CEO or newsletter article, then I've communicated. And the brilliance of our logic, everyone will just fall into line, and and we can move much quicker. Unfortunately, I think that latter is how we do things, and I think my where I'd like to be is is very different. And I think you're you know, we're making short term savings in time, not really saying if we actually put the effort in, we can actually get to where we want to get to the quicker and more sustainable way. But that thing of time, you know, we've got a lot to do. People are under a lot of pressure, and I don't say any of this without recognizing that. You know? I don't think that organizations are just chugging along, you know, nice and comfortably, and here's another thing. Oh, that makes sense.

Howard Krais [00:28:40]:

Let's do it. People are under a lot of stress, a lot of pressure, and here's someone else saying, oh, you gotta listen. You gotta do this. You gotta do that. It's tough. It's tough, especially going back to what we said before. If you haven't necessarily had to listen or seen other people have to listen to get to positions of of authority. So, yeah, I think it's it it is, you know, and III asked the question, actually, Tracy, whether I'm whether I'm sort of naive here or or just a bit romantic is is that I think that when when we get a new job, any of us, when we get a new job, we're super excited.

Howard Krais [00:29:19]:

We we we, you know, we get that message that says, congratulations. You know, you'll you'll start on this date. You're really excited. You wanna change the world. You're gonna be part of a winning team, and you're gonna really contribute to that winning team. And what is it that organizations do to take that excitement out of you? Which which is it's just I've just seen it. But, you know, it's just why do we do that? People, you know, people have got ideas. They want to be part of a winning team.

Howard Krais [00:29:46]:

They do care. You'll be surprised how much people care, I think, at times. Maybe the cynical head office has a different view. But, look, I think that's why I asked him. I maybe I'm a bit naive about this. But I do believe that people have so much to to offer us to help us to get, you know let's say we're talking about sustainability. Let's talk we'll talk about DEI. Say we're talking about continuous improvement, you know, real life business issues.

Howard Krais [00:30:12]:

Listening can help us to make better decisions and get us to where we where we need to get to. Isn't it?

Adam Gray [00:30:19]:

I remember reading about, 1 of the great American leaders of yesteryear. It could have been Andrew Carnegie or someone like that. And, you know, he he acknowledged that he didn't have not that he didn't have all the answers, that he didn't have any of the answers, but he surrounded himself with people that had all of the answers. And 1 of the things that he, he used to do was to go and just queue up in the canteen with the staff and then go and sit, you know, at our table and join the conversation so he could really keep his keep his thumb on the pulse of what was going on within the organization. And I think that that so often, leaders run the risk of being in their ivory tower, and Tim and I worked at a large corporate together, at the head office. There was a fantastic canteen, and yet none of the senior leadership were there. They would always go out for lunch somewhere. And it seemed like such AAA squandered opportunity to actually get close to the very people that were making the things happen within the organisation.

Adam Gray [00:31:21]:

And and I think that that often leaders are perhaps just unsure about how they can bridge the gap between themselves at the very pinnacle of the zenith of the organisation and you and me, you know, working at the coalface.

Rob Durant [00:31:36]:

Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:31:38]:

I remember going to lunch at Hilti in Liechtenstein. You know, that they make drills and stuff. And in the canteen, all the leadership would sit in the canteen and and and would have their meal out there. And it was like, this is what we do.

Adam Gray [00:31:54]:

That's brilliant.

Tim Hughes [00:31:55]:

And it was like and it was like, this is like part of the culture of the fact and and they and they and the and the and the leadership are told not to sit in cliques. The the the fact that they have to sit down and then not to sit with their mates or their friends or stuff like that to get other people and just actually and actually to have conversations. It was fantastic. I actually saw it while we're while we're queuing up.

Howard Krais [00:32:19]:

Yeah. And I don't wanna I don't wanna ever give the impression that all leaders are bad or don't get this. You know, I've worked with some brilliant leaders, some really fantastic leaders, and they don't necessarily would never talk about listening, but they were they just get the fact that you need to bring your people with you. You know, you need to create an environment where people want to come on that journey with you. And you see that in business. You see that in sport. You see that in all all walks of life. So, you know, that that you can then employ something which we call listening is great.

Howard Krais [00:32:47]:

But, you know, there are many, many great leaders who get this, you know, naturally. I think our challenge is how do we get to to your first question, how do we get more leaders to recognize that, you know, what they need to do?

Tim Hughes [00:32:59]:

Do do you think it's because listening is difficult? Because it may actually bring up things that go, well, that requires us to change or that requires us to innovate Yeah. Which which for large organizations are hard things to do, aren't they?

Howard Krais [00:33:13]:

Yeah. Like, I think even on the individual level, you know, we talk about psychological safety often from the perspective of the person the member of staff, let's say, the employee who wants to say something, but we our research certainly found psychological safety challenges for the managers and the leaders. You know? What if someone asked me a question I can't answer? What if I don't agree with what, you know or I the company had given me a line to give, and I agree with the sort of challenge from from the employees? Somebody said to me not long ago, they were talking to a manager in their business or a leader in their business who said, I don't wanna ask that question because, quote, quotes, it will open a can of worms. And and it's almost like, well, why wouldn't you? But, but that's so so, yes, I think there is a mindset challenge. Yeah. I've got enough on my plate. I I can do without opening that can of worms because I've just got too much on. So I think it is, it's a tough it's a tough 1.

Rob Durant [00:34:07]:

Let's listen to some of the comments from our audience. Stephen Wells shares, listening does not always lead to action. Yes. I think we heard, Howard mentioned that earlier. Dana Pool shares demonstrating active listening is best shown by follow-up actions. We have a LinkedIn user who says, if leaders learn to listen more, they can utilize their team to the highest level using each individual strengths to reach team and organizational goals. Flow Librato shares with us effective communication includes ensuring that the receiver gets it. They may not agree, but that they've at least heard.

Rob Durant [00:34:59]:

Another LinkedIn user sharing poor onboarding and not hiring to true need creates the downward spiral of the disillusionment in my opinion. And we have David Bellamy who says the people in the body of the organization are closest to the customer. Suppliers work with the process, technologies, and policies. They more often than not know what's working and what's not. Thank you all for these comments and keep them coming. Keep your questions as well. We wanna make sure that we list.

Tracy Borreson [00:35:34]:

Howard, I have a a question. So in, like, all of these things that we've talked about, if we need to create more space to listen in your experience, where are some of the places we can look to find maybe less productive activities that we could trade away to replace with

Howard Krais [00:35:53]:

listening? Well, I think from from from sort of communications engagement perspective, you know, I think there's a lot of stuff that gets done which has very little impact. 1 of the companies III don't know. Maybe I I shouldn't say which, but 1 of the companies that, you know, I work for big company, did a lot of really good work on on on this on the sort of, face of it to show, on its sort of, how it produced newsletters and and it, you know, worked hard on improving its editorial, improving its personalization. But I just remember while I was working there, you know, they they were there was a really good sort of performing story would hit about 25, 30000 people in their organization. Rarely went above that, and and usually it was below. So that's all good and fine, but there's a 100, 000 people working in that organization. So all of that resource and effort was spent on a quarter of the organization. So to me, I was just always questioning why we're doing that at all.

Howard Krais [00:36:57]:

You know? Why are we not investing in the things that reach many more people? Why are we not creating that that opportunity for people to have dialogue and discussion, conversation? So I think I think that, you know, we could as as comms people, we we could look at what we do and say, is that really having an impact? I mean, all the money in the communications world is on platforms and intranets and and, you know, technology. But, you know, I'm doing a a project at the moment just came off just for this 1 with a, you know, series of blue collar workers, I guess, you know, in in manufacturing plants. People who are not even given company devices don't have any, you know, they any access to these to these channels. Yeah. Where's the act where's the where's the sort of time spent creating the content? And and it's I don't think it's I don't think it's helping us. So I think that that we could look at, are we really having the impact, you know, in terms of what I do? Are we really having the impact that we might have? And if not, what could we do that would actually have a lot more impact? And I think that's where you get into this thing around encouraging conversation, listening, understanding what we could do better.

Tim Hughes [00:38:13]:

Because we had a, I remember, we I work for a company where we had this employee survey, and it was a classic, you know, the the, you know, your you know, what we want is that that we're gonna carry on the beatings until the, the culture gets better, you know, and and, you know, you must fill it in. Otherwise, we're gonna, it come around and hit you with a stick, and you must say how how happy you are working here. And and it was so I used to just take the I used to answer it and then and then up it by whatever whatever I felt I upped it by 1 just to because because they said, we're not tracking any. Yeah. You are. You can track the IP IP address in my PC. So, and I think, you know, and I think we've all had that. And I think that we all look at employee surveys and are cynical about them.

Tracy Borreson [00:39:04]:

I think what the thing I've seen a lot of is, like, the 300 and 60 degree survey. So, like, you get to assess your manager and your coworkers of different departments and they get, like, you get 360 degree feedback on your performance. And, like, there was so much work that went into it. And, like, now you're trying to collect so much data from every piece, like, every employee, not just, like, 1 survey. Right? Like, I gotta fill in surveys for a whole bunch of people. And, like, I never saw anything come out of any of those. And I was on both the, like, filling in survey side and coordinating the distribution of survey side, and I was like, what are we doing here? The concept is good. Right? Like, the concept of understanding how people are experiencing you in the organization, I think is great.

Tracy Borreson [00:39:56]:

But if we're not actually going to listen or we don't have the culture for people to actually provide relevant information in their survey, then it's just a big waste of time.

Howard Krais [00:40:12]:

There there's there's so many there there's so many good ideas, which is just not very well implemented. And and, you know, I think, David David Bellamy's just said on the comments, you know, a deep problem with trust between organizations and their people. III agree in many places. That's that's the case. You know? Because, you know, because we don't we don't respond in a way which is, you know, sort of an adult to adult response. And we either think we know best, or we we hide the data, or we just don't do anything with it because it takes too long. And, you know, actually, somebody I know who runs a a 25 person organization said to me that in her organization, she had done, she'd made some changes to the benefits, but it'd taken probably 6 to 9 months to actually get these changes made. They were quite complex.

Howard Krais [00:41:03]:

He said she was kicking herself because they came from she she forgot to go back and said, we've made these changes because these are what you asked for. And because it took so long, it probably didn't really have much of an impact that it might have done if she'd sort of reminded people that that's why that they had made these changes sort of some time earlier. So you you can't you've gotta stay on it, I think. You've gotta sort of remember to do that. And it and again, it's not easy. I've been there, and you you sort of get into these projects. They take longer than you think. You forget to sort of remind people.

Howard Krais [00:41:35]:

You don't wanna over remind people. It's not easy. But, you know, people think I you ask me for my voice. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But if you stop, if I don't see that you're doing anything with it, why would I bother doing it again? And then you get into this sort of lack of trust and and the point that you made Tim absolutely. Yeah. That suspicion that and that's where the psychological safety bits come in. If I say something I've seen this so often you know in change if I say something I do I really think that yeah I don't want to say the difficult thing because someone somewhere is going to note my name down.

Howard Krais [00:42:06]:

There'll be there'll be a list somewhere, you know, with all the difficult people. Now I've never seen this list. I don't believe and actually a lot of leaders would say they they prefer the difficult people to the people to the people who aren't difficult, but but in the minds of the employees, I I don't want I don't wanna put my head above the parapet and be difficult because, because that might that might come back to haunt me. So I think that that there's some big issues, fundamental issues here, but they're all solved by leaders. It's a leadership thing. That's why I said it's not a communications thing in that sense.

Adam Gray [00:42:37]:

But but isn't it there also an issue with the organization itself, which is, you know, you're asking people with the across the organisation for feedback on something. You better be damn sure you actually wanna hear what they have to say. Because, you know, like Tim said, you know, when when you are the company and you are saying to your employees, you know, it's a happiness review. How happy are you? What you are hoping for is that they'll all come back and go 10 out of 10. This is my dream job. I love it. It's everything's rosy. And when they come back and say, this is the closest thing to purgatory you can have on Earth, you know, actually, that's that's either shocking for you or potentially very hurtful for you if it's something that you feel really invested in.

Adam Gray [00:43:18]:

So so how how do organizations, think about how they position in their own minds this ask of the audience.

Howard Krais [00:43:31]:

No. I think and let's not get sort of, caught up in that surveys are the only way of listening, and and that only once a year that you should

Tim Hughes [00:43:38]:

hear these things. I might

Howard Krais [00:43:39]:

be disappointed if it if it is purgatory that people were only just finding that out when they ran the survey. You know, there's that that's why I think that being, you know, being visible, using different methods of, of listening, you know, most companies have network supporting different things, many different networks. I I think I think, you know, you you've got lots of opportunities to listen, and that's where we go back to, you know, put your listening strategy together in a way that's actually gonna deliver value for you rather than just do this because it's the way we've always done it. Because we're tied into some contract with the big survey organization to ask this huge survey that really is no 1 quite understands half the questions. Yeah. Let let's actually have something that's gonna give us value, and then it should be easier to deliver on that.

Rob Durant [00:44:33]:

We have a question from the audience. Dana Poole asks, looking at the current job market and many companies doing layoffs, do you think it's an indication that leaders or the workforce are not listening to market trends and tech changes?

Tracy Borreson [00:44:50]:

Or maybe they're not listening to each other either.

Howard Krais [00:44:59]:

Yeah. It's it's interesting, isn't it? I think I 1 of the things I try and 1 of the things I try and think is is that list you know, all the things I've said around listening doesn't stop an organization from making tough decisions. It it, you know, III believe you will perform better, but that might still mean that you're gonna go through periods of struggle and periods where the economy is poor or or, you know, for whatever reason, you're not performing as you need to. So you may need to do things like layoffs. I think the way that you handle those sort of things, the way you listen to people who are not leaving the organization is very important. But I I don't know that, you know, just the fact that, you know, the job market per se or the fact that there are layoffs going on is is a reflection of whether companies are listening. They may well be listening, and and and, you know, their new strategy may be taking them in a different direction. So I don't know, it's an interesting question, Arna, that I I'm not sure, that just because that, you know, there are there are layoffs and, we have a fairly stagnant job market, I think, at the moment.

Howard Krais [00:46:15]:

I don't know whether that's, I mean, I think there's too many things to say. I mean, I think in this country, for example, the UK, I suspect a lot of businesses have been waiting for an election to happen, you know, a bit of stability. It'd be interesting to see where we are, I think, you know, towards the end of the year. You know, the economy hasn't been brilliant. So I'm not sure about I mean, that's market trends. I don't know. I'm I'm waffling a little bit here. So, it's gonna be I mean, all of these things are part of it, I guess.

Rob Durant [00:46:43]:

What about the current trends of, remote work and hybrid work? How is that impacting leaders' ability to listen? It's

Howard Krais [00:46:54]:

it's it's a really interesting question. The the channels and the techniques to listen are there. I mean, you you know, you can certainly do many different things just because somebody's not in an office. I again, my question would be maybe to to I'm I'm I'm I'm never a a fan of rephrasing the question, but it it's I'm more interested in whether the leaders themselves are interested in how people are doing. And and when we talked about the the age of listening at the beginning of, you know, of of our book, 1 of the things that we we talk about is the pandemic itself. And I I think, you know, what we saw in the pandemic is that companies lent in in a way they never had done before, you know, to how their employees were feeling, how they were dealing with that situation. You know, there there was more effort taken. Comms people were front and center of their businesses in a way they probably hadn't been previously.

Howard Krais [00:47:48]:

Now some people say that we've lost some of that, some of that that, you know, that positioning that we had during the pandemic. I I tend to think it's sort of 2 steps forward and 1 step back. I think that coming out of that, you see things like mental well-being far more on the agenda than you ever did. And again, if you if you're truly interested in in mental well-being, then I think you have to be listening to how people are feeling, and other topics on on that sort of ESG agenda. So I I think that, I think there's more, you know, the opportunity for is there, you know, to to listen if you want to as a as a leader, regardless of where your pay your people are based. And hopefully taking lessons of the pandemic, you know, you you will be recognizing culture is changing, ways of working are changing. Not for everyone, of course. I mean, I think sometimes on that debate, we forget, you know, the the blue collar people, the hospitality people, the sales people, maybe not changing quite as much for them, but a lot of the debate seems to be just on the people who who are who aren't necessarily in the office as much as they they were, or maybe they're being told they have to come back in the office, in in ways that they're a bit confused by.

Howard Krais [00:48:59]:

So I think all of that, you know, the listening part's really important if you're making some changes there. If you're if you're actually sort of starting to say we need you back in the office, you better be listening, otherwise you you're probably gonna have AAA real issue on your hands, I think, and and helping people through that change. So I I think it's it's it's front and center, Rob, of of that whole piece.

Rob Durant [00:49:21]:

David Bellamy shares 1 of the things that organizations could do differently is try to get away from only finding out what they think is important, as in employer led, and get more from employees about what they think is important, employee led.

Tracy Borreson [00:49:42]:

And don't I think I've shared this example on this show before, but I worked for an organization at 1 point that was like, what's important to you guys is what's important to us. So tell us what's important to you. And this was the, like, HR team. Right? And so I went and I was like, okay. So, like, 2 of the most meaningful things that we've done together as a business or these 2 things. And, like, immediately, without even thinking about it, they were just like, oh, no. We're not gonna do that.

Rob Durant [00:50:14]:

And I

Tracy Borreson [00:50:14]:

was like, oh, okay. I mean, so do you think I'm gonna tell you what I want next time? Because, like, I know you don't care. You're saying it, and you don't wanna listen. So, and it's not like because I think a couple people mentioned it and you mentioned it too, Howard. Like, it's not that we can necessarily execute on everything that every employee says all the time. Right? It's it's just not feasible, especially for a large organization. But that feeling that especially if it's being prompted from you that someone listens. And then very minutely, if they can't deliver it, they know that that what that does.

Tracy Borreson [00:50:52]:

Like, what that means to you. Right? Like, I I wish I could, but I can't. Fiscal issues or whatever. But I think there's a way to even present not being able to do things in a way that allows people to feel like you said that they've been listened to. And that's the feeling I think people I think that's the feeling we could create more intention around.

Howard Krais [00:51:18]:

You you summed it up perfectly there, Tracy. I mean, why would you ask the question if you're not if you're not prepared to, you know, if you if you only want 1 answer, it's almost like, you know, here's a list of things that we want you to be interested in. Just select from this. Otherwise, don't bother.

Tracy Borreson [00:51:32]:

I know. Like, honestly, I'd rather you tell me that. Right? Because then at least we have clear communication and that you're only willing to offer this. I can choose within this realm of things. So, okay, I'll go choose within that realm of things. So, okay, I'll go choose within that realm of things.

Howard Krais [00:51:45]:

Yeah. And someone probably had a really good idea at some point by the time it actually happened, and then they started getting things they didn't want. So, yeah, I'm I think you've you've highlighted. I won't bother next time. I I just I'm just not gonna play.

Adam Gray [00:52:01]:

Yeah. So so so which things would you like most? Would you like lower pay, fewer holidays, both of the above?

Tracy Borreson [00:52:11]:

I quit.

Rob Durant [00:52:13]:

But bad news has to be delivered. I can't necessarily meet every expectation. We can't have free lunch in the cafeteria every day. How do you balance the making sure they felt heard with delivering what might not be the answer they want.

Howard Krais [00:52:34]:

Yeah. Like, I think I think I'm gonna sum it up by saying treat people like adults. You know? You just treat people like adults. You have a you know, actually talk to them properly, explain why things are, give them a chance to have a yeah. Go use the same terms, conversation, dialogue on an adult to adult basis. It's I I think you'd be surprised that people get it. They understand things are tough. They under they you know, people who are working in a company know that performance isn't great because the order book's not as great or that because the sales aren't coming through.

Howard Krais [00:53:03]:

They they get it. Right? And so so I think treating people as adults will be a really good sort of, way of just following just a good thing to live by. And and then you you know, look. People get that you have to do it's not that it's not that you can't take bad news. I think it's you can't take either uncertainty, which often comes because I'm a bit nervous about giving you the the bad news, or or I can't take it if it's if if it's told to me like I'm some small child and you're the, you know, you're the the sort of benevolent parent telling me the bad news. Treat me right, and guess what? I'll perform for you, and I'll come back and I'll perform the next day.

Rob Durant [00:53:44]:

Excellent. Howard, this has been great. Where can people learn more? How can they get in touch with you?

Howard Krais [00:53:51]:

So, certainly, they can get in touch with I hope that, you know, people connect on LinkedIn. Howard Craze, obviously, Howard Craze. The book is Leading the Listening Organization. Thank you, Tim. Leading the Listening Organization. So that's available. You can go to my website, true, dashcommunications.com, and, the resources page you can find or go to the, you know, Amazon. Routledge is the publisher.

Howard Krais [00:54:15]:

You can get it from the Routledge site. Amazon have it. And, yeah, please connect. I mean, I'm I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I'd love to to continue the conversation with folks. Excellent.

Rob Durant [00:54:28]:

We now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode. Get show highlights beyond the show insights and reminders of upcoming episodes. You can scan the QR code on screen or visit us at digital download dot live and click on newsletter. Howard, on behalf of the panelists and to our audience, thank you for being here. Thank you all for being an active part of today's show, and we'll see you next time on The Digital Download.

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