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Unlocking Creativity and Communication in Business

March 08, 202451 min read

Unlocking Creativity and Communication in Business with Special Guest Kathy Klotz-Guest

In this episode of The Digital Download we challenge the conventional wisdom of the corporate world with our special guest, Kathy Klotz-Guest. An expert in blending humor with business acumen, Kathy wears many hats as a keynote speaker, workshop leader, podcast host, and the author of "Stop Boring Me!" Her unique approach to fostering creativity and innovation in the workplace through humor, storytelling, and improv principles is reshaping the way we think about leadership and team dynamics.

In our conversation, we'll talk about:

* The crucial intersection of humor, trust, and innovation in the workplace

* Strategies for creating a culture where mistakes are not feared but laughed off and learned from

* Practical improv techniques to enhance creativity and collaboration in team settings

* How "Yes, and" can transform meetings

Kathy's journey from leading tech product & marketing teams to performing comedy illuminates the power of laughter in building trust, connection, and a culture of courage. With over two decades of experience, she has proven that the principles of improv can lead to more engaging and effective communication, fostering environments where teams are not just allowed but encouraged to think outside the box.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. And for this episode – Bring your willingness to improv! Audience participation is highly encouraged!

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

  • Kathy Klotz-Guest, keynote speaker, workshop leader, podcast host, and the author of "Stop Boring Me!"

This week's Host was -

Panelists included -

Transcript of The Digital Download 2024-03-08

Rob Durant [00:00:02]:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of the Digital Download. Not even switch is. Which which is? The longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live. Now Now globally syndicated

Tim Hughes [00:00:27]:


Rob Durant [00:00:28]:

on the IBGN Radio Network. Excellent. Thank you.

William Shorten [00:00:33]:

And is is there an exclamation mark at the end of that as well?

Rob Durant [00:00:36]:

There is. Thank you for asking that for our audio only audience. Now they know. Today, we are unlocking creativity and communication in business. We have a special guest, Kathy Klotz-Guest, to help us with the discussion. Her background started as a unique blend of tech and humor. It was tech by day, improv, sketch, and stand up comedy at night. Now an expert in blending humor with business acumen, Kathy wears many hats as a keynote speaker, workshop leader, podcast host, and the author of Stop Boring Me.

Rob Durant [00:01:20]:

And, yes, Will, there is an exclamation point at the end of that too. Before we bring Kathy on, let's go around the set and introduce everyone. While we're doing that, why don't you and the audience reach out to a friend, ping them, and have them join us? We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience. Audience participation is highly encouraged. Right. So with that, Adam, would you kick us off, please?

Adam Gray [00:01:51]:

Good afternoon, everybody, or good morning, depending on where you are, of course. I'm Adam Gray, cofounder of DLA Ignite, and, audience participation is not encouraged. It's mandatory.

Rob Durant [00:02:03]:

There we go. Awesome. Thank you for that. William, long time no see, my friend. Please take a moment and introduce yourself.

William Shorten [00:02:12]:

Hi, Rob. Hi, everybody. Yeah. Real joy to be back after quite a extended period of leave. So my name is William Shorten. I'm proud to be an associate with DLA Ignite. And aside from that, I'm also a coach, trainer, and, facilitator. So lovely to be here with you all today.

Rob Durant [00:02:31]:

Welcome back, Will. Tim.

Tim Hughes [00:02:35]:

Thank you. Will, it's great to see you again. It's it's it's been a long time, and, it's it's good to have you. Just to explain, who I am, I'm Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO and cofounder of DLA Knight, and I'm famous for writing the book, social selling techniques to influence buyers and change makers.

Rob Durant [00:02:53]:

Excellent. Thank you very much. And myself, I am Rob Durant, founder of Flywheel Results, a proud DLA Ignite partner. We help startups scale, and I'm not famous for writing

William Shorten [00:03:08]:

anything. Yeah. Yet.

Rob Durant [00:03:10]:

Alright. As I said, this week on the digital download, we'll speak with Kathy Klotz-Guest. Her journey from leading tech and product marketing teams to performing comedy illuminates the power of laughter in building trust, connection, and a culture of courage. Let's bring her on. Kathy, good morning and welcome.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:03:39]:

Happy International Women's Day. Yes. Abbott. We get one whole day, guys.

Rob Durant [00:03:51]:

Yep. Make the best of it because, you know, this is it.

Adam Gray [00:03:57]:

What Tim

Tim Hughes [00:03:57]:

is it for you, Kathy?

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:04:00]:

It is ungodly. It is, I think, 5 past. Holy crap. I'm up. It's I think it's 6:0:5.

Rob Durant [00:04:07]:

Live. That sounds about right. Yep.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:04:09]:


Rob Durant [00:04:10]:


Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:04:11]:

Yeah. AM. Yeah. Wow.

Rob Durant [00:04:14]:

Well, thank you so much for being here.

Adam Gray [00:04:16]:

Thank you for your commitment.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:04:17]:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, my gosh.

Rob Durant [00:04:22]:

Kathy, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about you and how you got here.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:04:28]:

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Probably Live a lot of people's journeys, there was some serendipity and some, you know, providence, and it's it's a lot mix of a lot of things. I I knew right after college that I would be doing comedy in some way, shape, or form. So I I sort of had this, like, split life where, like, I work in tech during the Gray, and then at night, I, like, you know, strip off all the tech, like, you know, we have to and, you know, especially for women, you know, we have to show up differently, because it's very male dominated space, kinda like today. And and I had to, you know, present a little differently. And then I would go on a stage and it like, I had a very different experience, and I I just loved it, fell in love with it, and then did this for many, many years. And over Tim, it's really interesting, Rob.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:05:16]:

I started thinking, you know, this is really transformational. I knew it would be. I just didn't know like, originally, I went into comedy because I was like, I wanna make people laugh, and I love to make people laugh, and I love to laugh. What I didn't what I underestimated was the amount of transformation for me and for people around me and how how it changed the way that I looked at the world and my courage and all these other things that I really didn't they were just surprises that came out of it. And I thought, how do I take this stuff? Like, why is it we can show up in this context on a comedy stage and have so much fun, all of us, and we can laugh and and just have a great time? And then we go back into corporate, and we're all just Live like, all of a sudden, it's like we're masked up again. And it's like, that was I just thought Bob, like, blowing, like, milk bubbles out of his nose. What what is he even saying with all that jargon? What who is this guy? And we all did it, and I think it got me thinking, and it changed the trajectory of my life. This this one question, I'm so fundamentally curious about courage and creativity and communication, how we show up differently.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:06:19]:

And what are the tools that we can take from kind of the comedy stage and bring into our everyday life, whether it's corporate or whatever. And and it's sort of you know, over time, I realized after, you know, being in tech for almost 2 2 decades, I went I'm doing comedy at night and, you know, going through sketch writing and and and improv and stand up, and I went, this is silly. I should just merge the 2. So I eventually did, but it it's interesting. It put me on a journey and a path of really discovery and curiosity. Yeah.

Rob Durant [00:06:52]:

Awesome. Thank you for that.

Adam Gray [00:06:54]:


Rob Durant [00:06:54]:

Mhmm. So I I wanna start with a foundational question.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:06:59]:


Rob Durant [00:06:59]:

How can humor and playfulness be incorporated into more traditional or conservative corporate cultures without disrupting professionalism?

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:07:12]:

Well, and I think this whole myth, right, there's this myth that, like, Hughes, unprofessional, and it's Live, I say it with that level of reverence because that's exactly the level of reverence that it deserves. Meanwhile, the things that disrupt professionalism are, I don't know, racism, sexism, corruption, greed, disrespect. I mean, there's a whole lot of things that are not professional and hurt people. Humor is pretty low on that Live. And most people never offend. Most people never cross that line. Truly, I think there's a lot of fear for no Jensen. And I want people to remember that it's very simple.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:07:53]:

What we get wrong fundamentally about humor is we think humor is the person standing with the microphone, and we think stand up. And we think jokes. The average person, if I say humor to you, you think jokes. But humor is so much more than jokes. Humor is showing up imperfect. Humor is being able to to experiment and try and fail and laugh and grow. Humor is accepting other people's imperfection and creating a safe space for us to try stuff. And all of that sounds a lot like innovation, doesn't it? Because it's exactly what comedy and and humor is.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:08:25]:

It's the ability to try and fail and innovate and grow. And playfulness is really that exact thing that we want. We say we want creativity. We say we want innovation. And yet, you know, as many times as we say it, people don't innovate because they're they're scared. They're scared that if I fail, I'm gonna hear about it from 20 different people, and I'm never gonna live it down, and I'm gonna be judged by my my boss, my coworkers, my coworkers' dog. I'm gonna hear about it in the company newsletter. I'm gonna hear about you know? And they're they'll never live it down.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:09:02]:

And, honestly, the very thing that we need is a mindset, a growth mindset, and play and and and humor really Tracy are at at their core about a growth mindset.

William Shorten [00:09:15]:

Wow. So I'm curious with with if I can just jump in, Rob. Kathy, fantastic opening there. So how how do you use this? If you're going into an organization Yeah. You're gonna run a workshop or something, you know, what what's the offer? What's your kind of starting point Tim them?

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:09:33]:

The starting point really is about, I think dismantling the, all the barriers to to, creativity and usually it's fear and safety and psychological safety and The starting point really is getting them out of their their headspace, shifting their mindset, really. 1st gear first gear is mindset. We can't get to 5th Gray, until we change the mindset. And then number 2, I would say it's really having them think differently about psychological safety. So we do a lot of play, but it takes a little bit of, it takes a little bit of, of work culture work and and mindset work so that everybody goes, oh, I can play now. It's okay to play. And the thing that we have to work on is that this is not a temporary fix. This is not something where we're gonna come here and we're gonna Gray.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:10:22]:

Then you're gonna be released back into, incarceration corporate incarceration where everybody's like, I'm too afraid to take a Ross. So we have to start thinking about little ways, little ways that we can start to make those changes because, yeah, we can't we can't all of a sudden go from, you know, barely getting a permit to driving on the Autobahn, and it doesn't work like that. We're gonna have to ease people in. And so the offer really is is let's create small, safe ways that people can play. And here's the key. How do we integrate it into work? I'll say it again. If we're thinking that play is this whole other thing and humor is this whole other thing, I think we're missing creative ways to restructure work. So work can be all of us improvising and coming up with new ideas in a brainstorm meeting.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:11:13]:

Every meeting can have play elements. Every innovation endeavor that we do as a company can have milestones where we introduce concepts to the team and the team plays with us and gives us feedback. There's so many ways to introduce the concept of play into works that play and humor and laughter and all that stuff isn't seen as separate. And if it's consistent over time, laughter is a signal of trust. And I can tell you when I walk into a company within less than 5 minutes exactly how the leaders are perceived. Because a culture that has no laughter or nervous laughter is a culture in crisis. And I don't care what the window dressing is. I was in tech, and I know what that looks like.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:12:04]:

And so it really comes down to, can people laugh? Can they make mistakes? Do they feel free to innovate to some degree? So I think it's really such a great question because it's so expansive, and it really starts with finding comfortable ways to stretch them, to think differently about it, and to start the journey of integrating humor and levity and improv and play into work. It's not separate. Into the way that they work and show up.

William Shorten [00:12:32]:

What what I'm hearing there is, first of all, there's a kind of permission

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:12:36]:


William Shorten [00:12:36]:

That this is acceptable and this is something that, you know, actually, we're gonna actively encourage. Yes. And then there's something about kind of these micro habits about how you can build that. Social, again, I'm just interested. You know, habit forming is one of those really hard things to do. And as you say, you know, people come along to a workshop or have some training. It's a little bit like a sheet dip. You know, for for for the hour, a couple of hours, they're there.

William Shorten [00:13:02]:

Perhaps for a day afterwards, it stays with them. And then afterwards, it it kinda can dissipate. So you know, what's your kind of guidance about how they can actively build on that?

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:13:12]:

Yeah. It's I work with I work with companies over a long haul. Haul. I don't do it when and done. I don't I don't do when and done because that's never gonna stick. You're absolutely right. So the way to think about it is it's sort of threefold. We've got to think about that that mindset shift, culture shift, and we have to create in the culture the messages, the messages, and the social proof.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:13:33]:

So if I say play's important or Hughes important and we laugh a lot and I never see the leaders laugh, I go, you're not eating your own dog food. So we have to start to look for ways that we start to show up. What are the messages we're sending? Where's the social proof? Give me examples of of where the team has failed or tried something new or they've innovated on social media or they innovated internally. And how did that go? And maybe they failed. Great. What did they learn from it? Let's start to seed examples. The biggest example is going to be honestly, the biggest social proof is gonna be, oh, yeah? Oh, yeah? Permission? Tell me a time when people failed and they Live to tell that. And if you don't have that social proof as a leader or as a culture, you're kind of DOA with that messaging.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:14:23]:

Now look, we all know, like, you cannot turn a tanker around on a dime. It takes time. So you have to start to think about social proof. And that means giving permission, starting to let make it so ingrained that people's, people's accountability and their job includes that. And and make sure that they know that experimentation, to some degree, explain the boundaries, is part of their job. It's part of their job. So you have to start collecting social proof. You have to start putting it into their jobs.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:14:57]:

You have to start messaging all the time. And leaders, leaders, leaders, you're gonna have to show up imperfect, make mistakes, and model that behavior. It just can't be it can't be the one and done. And it and it does take time, but those are the types of signals that are gonna start to give permission.

William Shorten [00:15:17]:


Adam Gray [00:15:18]:

I I I think that's absolutely wonderful. But I I'm so in our company, Will is really funny, and I'm not really funny. So I so so Will Will has said thank you. So so Will has put a has set a really high bar for appropriate humor in the workplace. And and I find this really stressful because this is just another technique skill that I need to learn and start to deploy. And and, you know, Tim is is the chief executive, and and my concern is that he'll think that the company's turning into, like, an open mic night at a comedy club. And and and I'm I'm I'm being I'm being deliberately provocative when I say this, But but, you know, you're not

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:16:08]:

I didn't stand up. I I like, some open mics are the open mics of the open mics. Yes. I got you. I got you.

Adam Gray [00:16:14]:

Yeah. And and, you know, sometimes, you you work with somebody Durant they are just naturally funny. Every time they open their mouth, the their their sense of humor comes through, and you can't help but giggle at this. And other people are not funny people. Right.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:16:29]:

That's very true.

Adam Gray [00:16:30]:

So so so how so how do we manage that in the workplace? The Well, you're conflating become a prerequisite? No.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:16:35]:

No. No. You're conflating funny and humor, and this is a common misconception. You are conflating the 2, and that is not the case. So I'm gonna let you off the hook, Adam.

Adam Gray [00:16:44]:

Thank you.

Rob Durant [00:16:47]:

No. No. No. No. No.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:16:50]:

And I say this with love. Not everybody is funny. I mean, it's funny because people will call me and they're like, can I make can you make me funny? I'm like, no. I can't give you what God didn't. I'm sorry. God doesn't God doesn't give with both hands. I'm sorry, and I can't do that for you. What I can do is make you funnier by getting out of your own head.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:17:09]:

And here's what I mean by it. Because it's such a brilliant question, Adam. And you're you're speaking on behalf you're the voice of a lot of listeners, and so I appreciate the question because a lot of people are thinking it. So it's a brilliant question. You're absolutely right. I think it's a common, false narrative that humor means funny. Funny is I'm intentionally trying to make you laugh. Now when I step on a comedy stage, a stand up stage, and I'm I'm I'm hosting a show tonight, it is my job as the host to make people laugh and move move everything along.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:17:39]:

That is my job. But in business as a leader, you know, funny buys you a little bit of charisma, but funny is not what your people need. I'm a say it again. Funny alone, it will not buy loyalty. What people want from you is humor, and humor is embracing your playfulness and your imperfection. You do not have to be a comedian. You do not have to, you know, be great at jokes. Some people really stink at jokes.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:18:09]:

And, you know, the thing about it is if you're not good at it, Gray. Don't do it. You don't have to. You don't have to. Some people are just naturally great storytellers, or some people have really great facial expressions. Some people are really good at, like, props and just in the moment Rob observational wit. They don't say much at all, Live every once in a while, when they do say something, it's hilarious. It really here's the thing.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:18:36]:

Hughes in business isn't about trying to be funny. Humor in business is giving yourself permission to be human and imperfect. One of the things I'm just gonna bring in, you know, half of you are across the pond, so I'm gonna bring in look. This is not a political message. If you watched Biden last night Live his state of the union address, he made a lot of mistakes, but he laughed at himself. That you're human, that you're accessible, that you get that you're imperfect, and that you're giving them permission to be imperfect. So rest easy, Adam, and I love I love your question because it is so genuine on behalf of so many listeners. You don't have to.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:19:28]:

If that's not your thing, it's your thing. I bet you, Adam, you're you're naturally humorous in your own way in your own way, and that's brilliant.

Adam Gray [00:19:37]:

Unintentionally. But that's the best.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:19:40]:

That's the best. I will take somebody who's unintentionally humorous in business than the leader that's trying way too hard. Love me. Validate me. Please. Please. Please. You know, that's that's, like, needy.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:19:53]:

That's so needy. No. No. Because what your people want is to trust you. They want to trust you, and you don't have to be rip roaringly to build trust. So humor and play are just what's naturally what is natural for you. That's genuine. Yeah.

Rob Durant [00:20:15]:

Yeah. Katya, one of the things that you mentioned early on was, product take, productivity and innovation. Yeah. So can you measure the impact of incorporating humor and improv techniques on team productivity and innovation outputs?

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:20:35]:

Absolutely. You can. You can. I've worked with teams where, you know, the benchmarks are kind of I mean, they're they're both quantitative and qualitative. So shout out to all the, like, metric nerds. Hey. Sometimes they're qualitative. Like, for example, beforehand, you know, we know that things aren't getting done.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:20:54]:

And usually, I'll say this, 99% of the time, your team is not the problem. I'm gonna say it again. 99% of the Tim, it's not the team's fault. They are creative. There's something. They're afraid. They're confused. Maybe they're unclear as to how they're being measured.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:21:11]:

There's something else going on. And what we found is that after introducing techniques like, you know, Jensen, and, and basic, you know, brainstorming and creativity techniques, what we find is communication goes up, output goes up. They come up with a pipeline of better ideas. They have more clarity in how they talk to each other. They are not shutting each other down. They're actually listening to each other, so they're allowing people to be heard. And when people are heard, they come up with more ideas. So whether it's a pipeline of ideas where it's ideas that are actually scheduled to be tried and tested, Yeah.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:21:54]:

We see we see that communication and creativity pipeline expand. Yep. And and improv isn't not again, improv is not about being theatrical. It's not Abbott, I'm not asking you to do Adam improv, like level 101 improv. Or you invite your friends and they're like, no. Thanks. I thought you were hoping

William Shorten [00:22:15]:

you're gonna get us to be doing

Adam Gray [00:22:16]:

Oh, yeah.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:22:26]:

We're gonna do forced improv. That's not what it is. It's not about theatricality. It's about listening to each other and disrupting old patterns. And when we use improv tools to increase better communication and have more fun, people feel safer to give more ideas, and it completely changes sort of the the tone of the group. And that's what we're talking about with improv. Yeah. Safety.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:22:50]:

It's really safety and trust. Yeah.

Rob Durant [00:22:54]:

And and how can organizations ensure that their attempts at humor are both inclusive and respectful?

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:23:02]:

Yes. And here's the thing. Ross people, Rob, never crossed that boundary in my experience. So a lot of the as I've said before, and I'll say it again, it'll be etched on my epitaph. She said it was okay. Ross people never cross that line. The false narrative is I won't be taken seriously if I laugh a lot, but the research is very clear, first of all, before the I Live you the how. The research is very clear.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:23:33]:

Leaders who take themselves too seriously are, take a trust hit. I'm gonna say it again. The leader that never laughs, never gives permission for the team to lighten up is not taken seriously. Laughter and humor are related to trust. They're related to Tracy. And it's really a measure of Can I lower my shield and be seen by this leader? And that's what laughter is. Laughter is is a cheat code to trust, my friends. It's a cheat code to trust.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:24:09]:

So the how to is really actually quite simple. And I the reason I keep it simple is intentional because I think we overcomplicate it, Rob. We dress it up, and we're we we think of 20 things that can go wrong. Right? But the reality is is very simple. Is my laughter or my humor about a universal human experience? Is it about my experience? So I'm speaking for me, not for somebody else. Am I speaking for me or about a universal? And if I'm doing that, I'm probably 99% of the time gonna lift people up, what we call affiliative humor. Affiliative humor is improv because everybody participates and everybody feels included. The the litmus test is, is it lifting people up, or is my joke or my comedy or my improv or my humor, whatever x insert, is my humor at the expense of a person or a group? So what it Ross, is my humor at the expense of a person or a group? And if you feel strongly that it is, then don't do it.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:25:18]:

Very simple. Start with your own experience. I mean, I can tell you all day what it's like to be a woman in tech. I mean, it's International Women's Day. It's International Women's Day. You know, I can tell you, so I I worked in tech for almost 2 decades, very male dominated space. The last company that I worked for had a fun little tradition where all the groups got names. The IT guys, they were the it bros.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:25:40]:

The accountants, they were the dough bros. And I got really excited because they came up with a name for the women in my division. Kathy and Brenda. Yeah. Which is a lot like stand up sometimes. Exactly. Now nobody's being hurt. I'm telling you what my experience is to be a woman in the world.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:25:58]:

There's no blame. There's no shame. I'm just laughing. That's that's a selling of humor which people recognize the universal truth in that. And even men, when I say that joke, laugh because men in tech know. So that's that's a unifier. Now if I were to, you know, do a joke that, you know, put the blame on a person or a group of people, or blamed people, then that's that's punching down or that's that's that's at the expense of a group. So so just remember that if I'm I'm really concentrating on our human experience, you know, what it's like to be a parent, what it's like to work a 9 to 5 or 9 to 9.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:26:37]:

I mean, who works a 9 to 5 anymore? Nobody. What it's like to, be stuck in traffic? What it's like to work remotely? Hybrid work. What even is hybrid work anymore? Those are universals. It gets very weird when I when a group or a person starts to comment on an a common experience for a group. So be very careful about, again, that line. Is it at the expense of a person or Gray? And if it's not, you're good.

Adam Gray [00:27:07]:

So if my humor can't be at the expense of a per an individual or a group, basically, Live got nothing now.

Tim Hughes [00:27:13]:

You need to shut up.

Rob Durant [00:27:14]:

Yeah. Then

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:27:17]:

I would Gray, y'all need to take some classes. And and no offense no offense, but you probably should shut up. And that's that's the thing that I'm I'll laugh at this, and I don't wanna do improv with y'all. But here's the thing, That's the thing that I cannot emphasize enough. And you've all heard this, and I'm gonna call b s on it. There's there's people that are like, well, I guess I can't be funny anymore because the humor Live just have shut me down. And then I feel like going, bitch, you ain't funny. You never were.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:27:52]:

And I'm gonna say it because here's the thing. If your humor has to punch down on a group of marginalized people or a person, that's not funny. The question is, who has the power? So if you're in management and you're laughing at the one woman in the group or the people of color in a group or maybe the LGBTQ folks who are already marginalized, that is what we call punching down, and that is abusive. It's not funny. That's when you cross the line. That's when you cross the line. So humor has everything to do and selling funny and jokes have everything to do with self awareness. Who has the power? Who is not represented? I can't speak for their experience.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:28:37]:

As a white woman, I can't speak for the for the collective experience of of women of color. I can't do that. And it's self awareness to know that there are some things that I can say and laugh at, and some things I can't. So, again, the real litmus test, Rob, is such a beautiful question. Thank you. Is stay on the right side of of that, which is universal experience. Look. I mean, you start talking about running a business, everybody will laugh.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:29:04]:

You start talking about what it's like to be a corporate cog in a machine, everybody's gonna laugh. If you start talking about what it's like to work hybrid, I mean, everyone's gonna laugh because everyone's like, what's going on? Are we what what is even happening? Everyone's gonna laugh. If you're in HR and you make fun of HR people, well, you're making fun of a collective experience of HR people. So it's Gray. You know? That's alright. That's the stuff that I think is safe. And universal experiences always work. So that's kind of the long way to answer it.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:29:37]:

But I really wanna disabuse us of this notion of, if people are telling you you're not funny because you're you're punching down, then, yeah, you have a problem. You have a problem.

William Shorten [00:29:46]:

It's it's really interesting you should say that, Kathy, because I've been doing some work. I've one of the things I do is do debriefs on profiling tools, and there's one around social intelligence that I've been working on at the moment. And, you know, the underpinning of emotional intelligence, you go back to your Daniel Goleman or whatever, is regard for self, regard for others, awareness of self, and awareness of others. And I think what you've just said there just kinda highlights that importance around kind of taking an emotionally intelligent approach to it.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:30:15]:

There is a correlation between humor and emotional intelligence in leaders and in anybody. Humor is a marker for emotional intelligence because, to your point, it requires a huge amount of emotional intelligence and self it requires self awareness and the ability to read a room.

Rob Durant [00:30:33]:

Yeah. So as we're talking about boundaries

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:30:37]:


Rob Durant [00:30:38]:

Can humor and improv help in managing and resolving conflicts within Tim, or should we avoid humor where there's conflict?

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:30:48]:

I think it's I think it's a it's a little bit tricky, but I say we don't need to avoid it. And here's the trick. It's self awareness, which means let's build the we. Let's build the we. I think the mistake thinking that humor can't be part of the the conversation, I I think that's a mistake to think that, but let me give you an example. So I led tech teams for many years as you know, and I I had you know, I would always start out tricky conversations where I felt awkward by acknowledging the mutual awkwardness. Because if I felt awkward as a leader having this conversation, I bet the person on the other side of this conversation felt equally awkward. And so acknowledging builds the we.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:31:33]:

Rob, I would say something like, one thing I I would do is I would say, look. I know we have to have this uncomfortable conversation. So before we get started, can I get you anything? Can I get you some coffee, some water, a running start for the exits? What which what would you like to do? And that would always be met with a laugh. And what I really was saying is, look, I know this is awkward. I feel it too. So let's start from a real place of emotional, self awareness and safety. As I see you, I it's uncomfortable. Just saying that, that level of truth and humor takes the walls down.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:32:12]:

It it takes that walls down. So I do believe it belongs even in conflict, but we have the key is self awareness and doing it right. And it is not me deciding or saying what the other person is feeling. It is owning how I feel. I'm gonna say it again. Leaders, the way you start that is to be transparent about how you feel. Now I've given the other person permission to laugh and say how they feel. I cannot speak for them.

William Shorten [00:32:40]:

I think it's it's sometimes referred to as a coach, Richard Boisartis, who, is is over one of the the the Hughes, universities over there, and he talks about in terms of kinda coaching positive, emotional activators.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:32:57]:


William Shorten [00:32:57]:

So it's it's it's something around that positioning. As you say, you know, you're checking in, you're being empathetic to the person that's across from you. Yeah. And by injecting a little bit of humor and that kind of positiveness, you're hopefully setting the right ground for for that conversation to get off on the right foot.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:33:16]:

Yes. Absolutely. So so it does belong. It absolutely, Rob, is a is a great question because I think it's one that everyone's afraid of, but I I want people to not fear it. What I want them to do is just think about it as, you know, so well said, William. This emotional intelligence that's available to us, but it just depends on us being willing as leaders. And Tim and I have talked about this before. Being able to to, take down the vulnerability wall just a little bit because I think part of why humor can come off as glib is because sometimes leaders are afraid to be vulnerable.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:33:50]:

And I can't go into a meeting with Rob and then say, I know Rob what you're thinking. And Rob like, you don't know what I'm thinking. And he's right. He's right. And that puts people's defenses up. But if I own how I feel, now all of a sudden, that person goes, okay. There's a there's a little bit of a crack in the armor, and I can see the humanity there. And I I share that, and it gives permission.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:34:14]:

So I encourage people to not be afraid of it, but just be smart about it. Again, self awareness. Yeah.

William Shorten [00:34:21]:

In fact, it's I think it's a seesaw because it's it's it's vulnerability and authenticity. Yes. And in fact, they're they're either end of the scale, if you like.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:34:28]:

They are. And, you know, it's interesting because, there's a large Robert Half that does all this executive recruitment. They did these studies, and they found that the most one of the top top ten coveted skills in recruiting leaders was a sense of humor. And they checked for it. They checked for it in the interview process. And what they meant by that was not being the funniest person in the room, but are they self aware? Do they know how they show up? Do they have a sense of of themselves? And they looked for that because they found that not only does that augur well for EQ, it also is a sign of emotional agility. That person is adaptable. That person understands that, you know, being a leader is hard and crap's going to get thrown at them.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:35:16]:

And can Tim emotionally adapt in in the moment? And so they found high success correlated between humor and great leadership.

Rob Durant [00:35:27]:

You had briefly mentioned some techniques.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:35:30]:

Can you

Rob Durant [00:35:30]:

tell us a little bit more about the the techniques that teams can implement?

Tim Hughes [00:35:35]:

Rob, can I just ask before? Please. Are we not getting any comments? Or is that

Rob Durant [00:35:41]:

I am not seeing any comments come through.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:35:44]:

It's probably I know on on my time, it's early. People are still drinking coffee, so the

Tim Hughes [00:35:53]:

Right. Go ahead, Rob. So I think I think Rob wants us to do a bit of, for you to talk about improv, Kathy, and, and, the yes Abbott and or the yes and.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:36:04]:

Yeah. You guys wanna play it? I think it's better to just demonstrate it. Let's let's enough talking.

Rob Durant [00:36:08]:

Let's go for it.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:36:09]:

Let's play. Okay. So here's what we're gonna do. I want us to, I'm gonna go round robin here. I'm gonna start a sentence. We're gonna be let's what's what's the thing that you would plan for your company, everybody, or for your your thing? What's something you would plan? I don't know. Live a leadership summit. What what's something you would plan?

Rob Durant [00:36:30]:

A weekly, weekly training.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:36:32]:

A weekly training. Okay. So let's plan a weekly training. And here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna, I'm gonna start it off, and then I want, 1 by 1, all of you to keep yes, butting. Just keep yes, butting whatever the person before you says. So I'll probably start with Rob, Tim, Will, Adam. We'll do that because that's how you appear on my screen.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:36:53]:

Rob, Tim, Will, Adam. And you know it's all about the customer centricity. So that's what I see. That's what we're doing. Rob, Tim, Will, Adam. Alright. William. Brilliant, Fellas, let's let's kick this off.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:37:06]:

So I and you're gonna yes, but me. That's the thing. Alright. For the next, summit, you know what I want us to do? I want us to actually kick off with, like, something fun. I want I want a dance party. Let's just get everybody up and dancing. Yeah.

Rob Durant [00:37:24]:

Yeah. But, Kathy, we wanna make best use of our time. We wanna have an agenda. We want to know what each person is responsible for. We want to make sure that at the end of this, something valuable comes out.

Tim Hughes [00:37:45]:

Yeah. Yes. But, Cathy, what what happens if you can't dance?

William Shorten [00:37:51]:

Yes, Kathy. I think it's a really great idea, but, you know, Adam is really uncomfortable with things like that. So, you know, I just

Rob Durant [00:37:58]:

thought he could do it.

Tim Hughes [00:38:01]:

So so Cathy, Adam actually had disco dancing last night.

Adam Gray [00:38:05]:

Oh god. No, please.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:38:07]:

I could tell. He's

Rob Durant [00:38:09]:

Tim been mentioned here.

William Shorten [00:38:11]:

Alright. Can I can I repeat? Can I can I go back? Yes. But Adam should be the only one who does it.

Adam Gray [00:38:17]:

I I was I was jokingly gonna say yes, but you have me at dance. Yes. But, but I'm a little bit shy about such things.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:38:29]:

Okay. One more Tim. I want you to yes Abbott the previous sentence. So you don't have to yes

William Shorten [00:38:36]:

but me. You can yes but, you know,

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:38:36]:

Rob or Tim or anybody. But let's try it one more time. We'll we'll go around one more time. Okay. So how about then here's what we could do. I want us to have I want us to bring in some Legos, and I want us to just play for a little Abbott. Just just to, you know, get out of our headspace and get into, like, you know, a fun mode.

Rob Durant [00:38:56]:

Yes. But, Kathy, I I don't think Legos and toys are a part of the the training that we're doing. I I don't see how that's relevant.

Tim Hughes [00:39:08]:

Yeah. Yes. But what Rob says is, you know, it's a toy have have you we need to talk to health and safety because, you know, have you ever stepped on a leg up?

William Shorten [00:39:19]:

Yes. But, Tim, that's just so negative. Can't you be the fun guy for once? What? Mushroom.

Adam Gray [00:39:27]:

Yeah. Yes. But the problem is, Will, that when we throw caution to the winds, we end up in a terrible situation.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:39:35]:

Okay. Okay. Now we Abbott, but that won't work. It doesn't always come out as yes, Abbott, but a lot of times it's very much, you know, we we kind of crap on each other's ideas without without even realizing we're doing it. And, again, I wanna switch to a Jensen, Abbott here's the thing. Yes and doesn't mean you have to do the idea, folks. We can talk about it. It just means, like, let's let's brainstorm.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:39:57]:

So, let's try it now. Yes, and. You have to, yes, and, or or, you know, you don't have to use those words. The spirit of yes, and is what I care about. So, alright. Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna have a clown. We're gonna do clown makeup.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:40:11]:

That's what we're gonna do for the next meeting.

Rob Durant [00:40:14]:

Yes. And we could do silly hats too. I love a good silly hat.

Tim Hughes [00:40:20]:

Yes. And I Lorena silly hat, and what we could get is unicorns.

William Shorten [00:40:26]:

Yes. And being a clown, can we improvise on some of the tricks and and jokes that they do as well?

Adam Gray [00:40:34]:

Yes. And in fact, when Tim and I were on a business trip to Joplin, it was his birthday, and we did actually wear clown shoes.

Tim Hughes [00:40:45]:

We we were in an office, and on on the right side, you could you could basically say you could dictate a rule in the office. So so I basically said it was my birthday, so I wanted everybody to wear clown shoes.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:40:59]:

See? I love it. I knew I knew you guys were secretly you guys were hiding that playful Live. But you I love it. So let's let's talk about that. I love love love that. Look. You know, Yes, But isn't being Abbott, and Yes, And isn't about parroting back Yes, And, like a robot without thinking. It's not about that.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:41:16]:

It's the heart and soul of it. So it's just that we're gonna build on each other's ideas, and I can give you a different example. But, basically, you probably I know it's silly. This is just for illustrative purposes, but you kinda sense that when we're, yes, buttered, and I know this is sort of, feels a little bit contrived, but but you probably felt Live, you know, if you're yes, butting, it becomes very hard to move a conversation forward. You know? But yes, but is something that is our default setting in corporate. I don't know why. It just is our default setting. And I I how did yes and feel? You know, I know it's contrived here for purposes of demonstration, but how did that feel compared to yes Abbott for for some of you folks?

Adam Gray [00:41:58]:

Oh, it was much more much more positive. It was a much more can do attitude.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:42:04]:


Adam Gray [00:42:04]:

And and I think you're right. I think a lot of times in the corporate environment, you are because there's such a stigma attached to being more and making mistakes. You know, what you want to be is the person that stops mistakes happening. Whereas the idea of have a true brainstorm. And and, you know, we've all been in brainstorms many times. And the problem with the brainstorm is it's very digital. Not and I'm saying this slightly tongue in cheek. It's very difficult not to decry a stupid idea from somebody.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:42:35]:

It is. Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:42:36]:

Yeah. Stupid, Adam.

William Shorten [00:42:40]:

Sorry. I didn't agree.

Adam Gray [00:42:41]:

By by by stupid, I meant not mine, obviously.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:42:45]:

I'm a genius. You're a dum dum. Yeah. Exactly. The book's coming out. Yeah.

William Shorten [00:42:50]:

Yeah. It's it's it's it's much more collaborative and not so adversarial that I'm, you know, one upmanship

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:42:56]:


William Shorten [00:42:56]:

And, yeah, dismissed it in a way.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:42:59]:

Yeah. It's really the heart and soul of, Live, and, again, there's many ways to slice it. We can do a couple more activities. Abbott, really, basically, yes, and is the kind of thinking. It it you know, I don't want you to be a yes, and bot. I don't want you to force it. But tell me more. I like that idea.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:43:13]:

Okay. How might we and just move it forward because the but is what we do unintentionally. But I think the way that we it shows up in conversation, even I think on autopilot for a lot of us, can really shut people down. And that's when that's when a lot of people get stuck and they just stop contributing. And and it's just a way of thinking about it. But you wanna you wanna see what Jensen, improv training can do with emotional agility. Is it it's how we show up and whatever's thrown at us, we just integrate. So I'm gonna try this exercise, and I'll I'll demonstrate.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:43:48]:

You guys can throw me, one at a time, a word. I'm gonna tell a story. I'm gonna tell a story, And then after I start, 1 1 by 1, give it a little space. I want you to just say one word and I have to integrate that into my story. I have to not stop my story. I have to stay on track, but I gotta integrate. Because Yes To End is about integrating ideas, not not kicking them out, but integrating what's happening. So I'm gonna give you just a a quick exercise on how developing these skills is really kind of emotional agility.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:44:19]:

But so I might tell a story 1 1 by 1, just one word, and I'll I'll I'll it'll make sense as we go. So you guys, I I went to play soccer at this abandoned field and I saw this Jordan this dog, like, started kicking the ball to me.

Rob Durant [00:44:36]:


Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:44:37]:

And then it was amazing because this dog kicked it all the way up to a satellite and, like, knocked that satellite down. It was amazing. And I I knew I

Adam Gray [00:44:49]:

Bathtub. Mhmm. Bathtub.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:44:51]:

And then I knew that, okay, my dog, my new friend deserves a bath. He earned that treat. So I took him to take a bath, got it all

Adam Gray [00:45:01]:

set Turnip.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:45:03]:

Turnip? Turnip. And then I said, you know what? I know you love turnips, and you're going to such a good dog. I'm gonna cut up the turnips. And I'm gonna feed it to you in the bathtub. Oh, he loved

William Shorten [00:45:13]:

it. Paperweight.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:45:16]:

And then and then well, I don't know. The turnips kept floating. So I went, you know what's gonna work in this tub? Paperweights. We're gonna put the paperweights on the turnips. The turnips are gonna stay in the tub so my dog can just luxuriate. And then just keep adding, you know, all kinds of delicious stuff. And any more stuff you wanna throw at me, and I could keep going on and on and on. And it's about being able to whatever is thrown at us, we're able to apply that.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:45:43]:

You guys wanna play one more thing? Wanna play another Sure. Yeah. Thing? So here's what I want us to do. I want us to, the power of integrating. Alright. The power of integrating. Okay. I want you to come up really quickly with a a passion.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:46:01]:

Something that you're just one thing that you're really, really, really passionate Abbott. It could be sports. It could be I don't know. Sitting on your couch.

Rob Durant [00:46:18]:


Tim Hughes [00:46:22]:


William Shorten [00:46:25]:

Bike riding.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:46:27]:

Bike riding. Okay. So we're developing an app. We're developing an app together, and we have to we have to integrate all these different ideas 1 by 1. Yes. Okay. Here's what we're doing. Okay.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:46:39]:

We don't have to do any of these ideas. We're just opening up the possibility, the play funnel. Okay. So we're gonna develop an app. Okay. It's going to allow us to to search for music by family by family, what we all like in our family, and it's gonna tell us what everybody likes and what channels match the family. And then what are the other suggestions?

William Shorten [00:47:06]:

Bike riding. Bike riding

Rob Durant [00:47:08]:

and music.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:47:09]:

And so it's gonna give us those music channels by family. And guess the here's the best part. It's going to pre make lists. So when we're bike riding with our family, it's gonna give us these bike trail songs so we can hit the trails, you know, with full passionate speed. Whoo. It's also going to give us, a list for when we're driving going on long drives. What other words did we have? Did we get everybody?

Adam Gray [00:47:39]:

I I didn't, but mine would have been music as well.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:47:42]:

Music. Okay. So we got the Hughes. We got the break ready. We got the family. So what what improv allows us to Durant when we apply improv, is to playfully show up and acknowledge, pull in new ideas rather than kick them out and change the way that we think. And it may seem small and it may seem easy, but it takes time for us to sort of work these muscles. But what we're really doing here is we are expanding the possibilities.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:48:14]:

If I just say, well, I'm sorry. We're not gonna talk about music or bike riding or any of these things, then I'm really limiting my options, my creative options. If I start to say, well, you know what? Rob's got his his Live, and Tim and Will and Adam all have their passions. What if we created a way to integrate all these different ideas? Doesn't mean we're gonna build them all, but we've just expanded the funnel of possibilities and ideas in Tim. And this little this little way that we, a playlist for hiking. Yeah. Absolutely. See? Your trail mix.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:48:50]:

I love it. Does it have some M and M's in there? And it's got M and M's in there. Yay.

William Shorten [00:48:53]:

M and M's. So people are are really keen on

Tim Hughes [00:48:56]:

the radio. Mark is our resident comedian, and he's just put the, the comment. I made a playlist for hiking. It has music from Peanuts, the Cranberries, and NMM, and I call it my trail mix.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:49:08]:

That's perfect.

Adam Gray [00:49:09]:

That's perfect. Boom.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:49:11]:

But it comes it's perfect.

William Shorten [00:49:12]:

We didn't have tar Tarzan Boy for

Rob Durant [00:49:15]:

long, which I love in your hobbies.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:49:18]:

Tarzan Boy. That's a good one too. It's an old school old school. We'll call back. Like, I want my eighties jams. I want my eighties jams. Right? Durant my big hair playlist. I want my Gray rock big hair playlist.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:49:29]:

I love it. That and and it's just a little way to apply improv thinking. Again, I'm not asking people in a company to perform or be theatrical. I'm simply applying different ways of thinking expansive, that show up for us, that allow us to integrate, to be agile in the moment, to add ideas when they're thrown at us, and to see opportunities as a way to expand ideas versus contract ideas. Now, again, if you're gonna build stuff, there is gonna be that that place in the funnel. As Adam said that you're gonna wanna stop those bad ideas. Not every idea is gonna be, you know, worthy. However, there's you have to recognize that at the opening part of the creative funnel, we're trying to get people to give their best ideas, not shut down.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:50:17]:

So part of it is just changing the risk taking level in the in the group. And that means making sure people know that while we may not use all ideas, we want everybody to open up and give their best and not withhold those ideas. Yeah.

William Shorten [00:50:34]:

I I really like that, Kathy. I mean, it reminds me of an approach I I kind of saw on a Coursera program Abbott, design thinking, and they break it down into 4 kind of steps, which is, first of all, what is, what exists? Then it talks about, what if, what wows, so what could be the best thing, and then, you know, what are we gonna put in place? And it's that kind of iterative process where you're giving everybody an opportunity to to to speak and to be as creative as possible.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:51:07]:

Absolutely. It's inclusive. The the the real the only the only rules, if you will, in improv are yes and, mindset, which is there's no judgment. There's there's no there's no that's a bad idea. Uh-uh. Uh-uh. Uh-uh. There's no yes, buddy.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:51:23]:

There's no wrong. There's gonna be a place for judging the funnel of ideas later. It's really about building safety because once we get rid of the the blame or the shame or the you're wrong or the judgment, once we take that out, the design thinking can happen. We can have these great ideas. And also too, you probably noticed that the ideas will get increasingly sillier. This is a good thing. Doesn't mean you're gonna make those ideas. Here's the thing.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:51:48]:

When people start laughing and coming up with naturally humorous ideas, it means that they start to feel a level of safety. So as humor goes up in the group, it is a direct result of feeling safer. So when you do this at cool Abbott, people are like, what is going on? It's gonna take them a minute to warm up. When people realize, oh my god. I can say something and not get judged. Once they realize it, the ideas get crazier and funnier and sillier. That is actually a good thing because that is a high correlation with safety and productivity and being able to right before kind of Gray breakthroughs. So look for that.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:52:27]:

If people aren't warming up and having fun, they're censoring themselves, and that's still because there's trust issues. So it's gonna take a little bit of time and just be patient with it. And and it's really radically important that you stick to the no judgment rule. Not at this not at that point. Just don't don't judge. Yeah.

Rob Durant [00:52:47]:

Kathy, this has been great. Where can people learn more about this? Where can people connect with you?

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:52:55]:

Sure. You can connect with me on LinkedIn because that's a party because the Abbott never goes to die there. Lincoln, putting the f u in fun since whatever whatever. Okay. No. But I'm gonna change that, and I think we can all change that. So you can connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram. You can message me, you know, at keeping it

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:53:19]:

I got I got books and all kinds of shiz. You can see. See? But, yeah, feel free to check it out. Our

Rob Durant [00:53:26]:

audio listeners, they can't see. Tell us what that is.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:53:29]:

Let me insert a little caption. Kathy is is, goofy goofily pointing at her own books in a very

Tim Hughes [00:53:35]:

What's the name of your book, Kathy?

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:53:37]:

Stop Boring Me.

Rob Durant [00:53:39]:

I'm What's the name of your book?

William Shorten [00:53:42]:

The name of the book?

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:53:44]:

It's stop worrying Hughes the name of the book. Oh. And the key word the key word.

William Shorten [00:53:50]:

Come on.

Kathy Klotz-Guest [00:53:51]:

Yeah. It is it is the name of the book. You can get it on Amazon, and it's all about using improv and comedy tools to expand ideas, to expand product ideas, marketing ideas, content, stories, and productivity. Because really what it is is it's a way of changing how you think about it.

Rob Durant [00:54:10]:

Excellent. Yeah. Thank you so much. It is my pleasure. We now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode. Give us show highlights, beyond the show insights, and reminders of upcoming episodes. You can scan the QR code on screen or visit us at digital download dot live and click on newsletter.

Rob Durant [00:54:33]:

On behalf of our panelists, to our guest, Kathy, to our audience, Thank you all for being a part of the digital download today, and we will see you next time.

#Innovation #Leadership #BusinessCommunication #Creativity #socialselling #digitalselling #LinkedInLive #Podcast

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The Digital Download is the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live. We broadcast weekly on Fridays at 14:00 GMT/ 09:00 EST. Join us each week as we discuss the topics of the day related to digital transformation, change management, and general business items of interest. We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Audience participation is highly encouraged!

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