This week on The Digital Download, we're exploring the pitfalls of creating a company culture with our special guest, Doug Betts. Doug is the Owner/HR Director Consultant at Sure Betts HR Solutions Ltd.

Culture isn't just about perks or superficial incentives. Doug will shed light on how real culture change begins at the leadership level and how it impacts staff attraction, retention, and overall business profitability.

We’ll ask questions like -

* What are the common mistakes businesses make when defining their culture?

* How can leaders avoid setting and enforcing the wrong cultural behaviors?

* Why are traditional annual reviews often detrimental to company culture?

* How can businesses create an environment that feels psychologically safe for employees?

Having worked across various sectors, Doug brings over 20 years of experience in HR and offers practical insights into leadership and team management. His approach focuses on practical, actionable steps that leaders can implement to enhance their team's performance and job satisfaction.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• Doug Betts, Owner/HR Director Consultant at Sure Betts HR Solutions Ltd.

This week's Host was -

• Rob Durant, Founder of Flywheel Results, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of a DLA Ignite,

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite,

• Tracy Borreson, Founder and CEO of TLB Coaching & Events, a proud DLA Ignite partner, and

• Bertrand Godillot, Managing Partner, Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Transcript of The Digital Download 2024-06-14

Rob Durant [00:00:02]:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of The Digital Download.

Adam Gray [00:00:11]:

I've got this. So

Rob Durant [00:00:13]:

Alright.

Adam Gray [00:00:13]:

The longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live, now officially syndicated on oh, no. I haven't got it.

Bertrand Godillot [00:00:23]:

I almost had it. So close. Pretty good. Very good.

Rob Durant [00:00:27]:

Now globally syndicated on TuneIn Radio. Today, we're talking about how to get a culture very wrong. We have a special guest, Doug Betts, to help us with the discussion. Doug is the owner and HR director consultant at Sure Betts HR Solutions Limited. He brings over 20 years of experience in HR across various sectors. But before we bring Doug on, let's go around the set and introduce everyone. While we're doing that, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend, ping them, and have them join us? We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience. Audience participation is highly encouraged.

Rob Durant [00:01:15]:

Alright. So with that, introductions. Bertrand, would you kick us off, please?

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:22]:

Of course. Thank you, Rob. My name is Bertrand Godillot. I am the founder and managing director of Odysseus and Co. We provide, social enablement, consulting services, and training services, based in France. And I'm a very proud, DLA Ignite partner.

Rob Durant [00:01:42]:

Excellent. Welcome. Thank you very much. Tim.

Tim Hughes [00:01:47]:

Welcome, everybody. Yes. My name is Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO and cofounder of DLA Knight, and famous for writing the book, social selling techniques to influence bars and changemakers.

Rob Durant [00:01:59]:

Excellent. Thank you very much, and welcome. Adam.

Adam Gray [00:02:03]:

Hi, everybody. I'm Adam Gray. I'm Tim's business partner and cofounder of DLA Ignite, and I'm gonna pick up on what Tim said to tee it up for Rob. I'm famous for writing the book, Brilliant Social Media.

Rob Durant [00:02:18]:

Excellent. Thank you very much. And myself, I am Rob Durant, founder of Flywheel Results. We help small businesses scale. And I'm not famous for well, I'm not famous for writing anything Well done, Rob. Well done, Rob. Well done, Rob.

Adam Gray [00:02:47]:

Well done, Rob. Fantastic.

Tim Hughes [00:02:49]:

For those that don't know, Rob's book has just gone on to Amazon.

Rob Durant [00:02:55]:

Yes. Thank you.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:56]:

I was all read it, and it's really cool.

Adam Gray [00:02:58]:

Yeah. It is brilliant.

Rob Durant [00:03:00]:

I I appreciate the kind words. Thank you all very much. As I said, this week on the digital download, we'll speak with Doug Betts. He will share with us how real culture change begins at the leadership level and how it impacts staff attraction, retention, and overall business profit profitability. Let's bring him on. Doug, good morning, and welcome.

Doug Betts [00:03:28]:

Hi, Rob. Thank you very much for having me. Hi, Doug. Hi, everyone.

Rob Durant [00:03:34]:

Doug, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you to where you are today.

Doug Betts [00:03:42]:

So what led me to where I am today was originally a desire to want to improve the workplace. So even when I decided what career or else do I want, and I wanted to be in HR, it came from the fact that I got frustrated in a job years ago where I wasn't trained properly. And I thought if somebody had taken the time to invest in me and train me, I would have made some of the mistakes I did. And I think I that was something I could make better for people in the workplace. That's where it all started, and it's kind of grown to where I am now. I worked in house in a variety of roles for 20 years, and I used the pandemic as an opportunity to explore something I've been wanting to do for a while, which was to leave the corporate world and start my own business. And sort of using the skills and knowledge I'd learned in that time to be on that mission to sort of help business owners make their workplaces better than they currently are.

Rob Durant [00:04:30]:

Excellent. So, Doug, let's start with a foundational question. What are the common mistakes businesses make when defining their culture?

Doug Betts [00:04:42]:

I think the make the biggest mistake that you can make at the top of the tree, if you're the owner, founder, MD, or you've got a senior leadership team, is thinking that the behaviors and the culture that you come up with don't apply to you. Nothing will annoy an employee more if they get the message, do as I say, not as I do. So it's absolutely key. If you're at the top, you have to work to define what does good look like in terms of culture, and how does that come across, And how do you link that, not just to how you deal with your customers, but also how you deal with your employees?

Adam Gray [00:05:25]:

I've got a question on that, actually. Because this is so, we've been doing this for nearly a decade now. And, what we do is we encourage organisations to behave in a more social way. We train them how to do that. And what we find invariably is that we work with teams of people, and some of the people on the team embrace this way of thinking and some don't. But also, invariably, the leader, whether that's the manager of the team or the head of sales or marketing or whatever department it is, or even the senior leadership team within the organization go, this is a fantastic idea. And this addresses many of the issues that we have as a business, but I don't need to do it. So so how do how do we, in a practical way, how do we go about instilling this belief in them? Because you must have done this loads of times.

Adam Gray [00:06:19]:

Yeah. What are the triggers?

Doug Betts [00:06:21]:

The trigger is talking and selling it to them in a way that they'll understand because I think you can first of all talk about the emotional consequences if they don't invest. After all, they're handing money over to you to solve a problem. And I think you can say that you there's only so much you can do with their money if they're not seen to be publicly behind it. You can't necessarily hire somebody to fix the culture. You can hire a consultant like me or like you to recommend things and work alongside people, but, ultimately, who do people look up to in the business? It is the owner. It's not the consultant. So they have to be a 100 percent behind it. Otherwise, it will fail, and they'll have wasted their money.

Doug Betts [00:06:59]:

I think money talks a lot in this case. And the other piece of research I've come across this week, which I found was really interesting, is if you get the culture right, if you're a business, it's more likely to lead to you getting funding if you're going out there and trying to, you know, get capital to invest in your business. Funders are going to be more keen to invest in you if you have a good culture, because if they see that you're essentially steering a sinking ship where people are leaving all the time or there's high sickness, high absenteeism, high turnover, then they're less likely to part with their cash. So I think you'd have to talk to business owners in a language that they understand, and usually they're all protective of their capital. So that that's a good starting point. Cool. Cool.

Bertrand Godillot [00:07:44]:

Just a quick question. Bring

Rob Durant [00:07:45]:

up an interesting oh, go ahead.

Bertrand Godillot [00:07:48]:

Yeah. We we you know, turnover is is one of the, really the one of the critical issues that many customers are are experiencing right now. So is that really 100% culture thing, or is it, you know, also, I would say, you know, maybe maybe one of the one of the new realities that that needs to to to to to be addressed. And from that perspective, potentially reinforcing the need for a very strong culture.

Doug Betts [00:08:20]:

I think the majority of this is culturally based. And if you look at everything, it all comes down to it. So why do people leave a job? It could be that they're frustrated with their line manager because they're not leading them properly, developing them, giving them the career development that they need and want to advance. They might be micromanaging them. They might not be giving them the innovation and the space to solve problems. It might be the money, but, again, that comes back to culture in terms of how do you decide how you're going to reward the workforce. Is it just money? Is it other things as well? Is it a package? And I could spend whole hours just talking about that in itself. So there's lots and lots of different, ways that you you can look at this.

Doug Betts [00:09:02]:

But, yeah, fundamentally, it does come back to culture, and sometimes it's not even about how much you're paying people. If people are having a bad experience at work where they feel stifled or they feel they can't speak up, then they will go and look and work for the competition. So while some people follow the money, more and more people now are wanting a good employee experience, which obviously feeds completely into having a culture defined and in place. And that culture is something that shouldn't just be devised by an MD or a senior leadership team. The employees feel how well they have to feel that they're embracing it, part of it, and helping to shape it themselves.

Tim Hughes [00:09:41]:

Because we often, say, Doug, to people that people wanna work at Google because you get slides and jelly beans.

Rob Durant [00:09:49]:

Mhmm.

Tim Hughes [00:09:49]:

And they actually don't, you know, they don't pay the most. People wanna work at Google because they know that there's gonna be that there's gonna be a culture, good or bad. And so, you know, they're able to pick some of the best talent and not have to argue about another 5 k or something like that on the salary.

Doug Betts [00:10:10]:

Exactly. And I think there's quite often a lot of HR people miss the strong link between them and a good marketing team team in terms

Rob Durant [00:10:20]:

of getting the employee voice and the branding. And I think for

Doug Betts [00:10:20]:

me, you need to look at if you're trying to attract a certain sort of employee, what does that person want? How do they consume things, and what experience are they looking for? And, yes, some people want the jelly beans in the slides. Other people just want a really good pension scheme and perhaps a gym membership. It very much depends on the organization and the demographic, but it's actually knowing that and using a good marketer to work alongside you to get that message right and to make sure that's coming across in your job adverts, your job description. So, again, what you don't wanna do is attract people in with a fantastic marketing campaign, but then the employee experience you deliver to them on day 1 is incredibly different because it's just disjointed. So here's where it's very key to get the messaging right, but also to get the managers very well trained and briefed on how they have to then deliver that to their employees and how they create a good experience for them.

Adam Gray [00:11:11]:

Mhmm. It's it's interesting because you said about how, sometimes employees can feel stifled within this this environment. And, you know, I I think it's reasonable to say that anyone that gets to our age has worked in a variety of different organizations. You know, some of which are organizations where you have been potentially well rewarded, but, only from a financial perspective, not from a a kind of heart and soul type perspective. The we've all worked in organizations where we seem to have worked 15 hours a day and loved every minute of it. And, so what are the things that you can do to make, to make employees feel that they're part of a team? Because it is that we're we're all in this together kind of

Rob Durant [00:12:00]:

Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:12:00]:

You know, that that motivates you to to stay a bit later, to get in a bit earlier, and not to be moaning about the fact you have to skip lunch today. And I know it's not just about getting more out of you. It's about building that culture of, you know, okay, I'm I'm gonna take up some of the slack because you're under pressure, or this isn't working for you, or you're busy doing something else.

Doug Betts [00:12:20]:

It comes down to one fundamental thing. Why do people want to come to work other than to earn money to pay the bills so they can have the lifestyle that they want? And I think for me, it comes down to the fact that people like to solve problems. That's why businesses exist. That's why products exist. It's they all solve problems. Nobody buys things or buys whether it's products or services just for the sake of it. They do it because it's a solution to a problem. And I think deep down what people want to do in the workplace, whether it's working together as part of a team or being on their own, as I've said earlier, is about having the freedom to be innovative and come up with creative solutions to problems rather than just offering one solution to a problem that's that worked 30 years ago, and they're still flogging it now.

Doug Betts [00:13:03]:

They haven't thought to adapt it, change it, moderate it. And there's an MD in charge who says it's my way or the highway and doesn't think to actually listen to the voices of those on the shop floor who are perhaps dealing with the problem or dealing with the customer on a daily basis. And they need to feel that they are, you might have heard the phrase, psychologically safe at work, which means that they can speak up. They can put forward their ideas. They can constructively say if they're not happy rather than fear if they speak up, they'll suddenly be on the next restructure list and get, managed out of the business for daring to have an opinion. And I think it comes back to that basic point again. If people feel that they are safe and they are happy at work, they are more likely to stay. They feel they're making a difference.

Doug Betts [00:13:46]:

They're solving problems. They're listened to, and they're fairly rewarded for doing what they do in whatever form. Then they are less likely to then jump if they get offered more money to work down the road for the competition.

Adam Gray [00:14:01]:

Yeah. I mean, it it's it's fascinating because I I'm as you were talking about that, I was thinking about one organization that I, I worked in. And part of my role was to help clients, I was gonna say develop a strategy, but it was more than that. It was about, first of all, having a dream about what we could achieve together, and then, helping them understand what were the steps they needed to get there, one of which included buying our products, obviously. And then because, I was involved in the the the sales part of the organisation, we got to the point where the the customer would sign on the dotted line, and, we then walked away. And I said to my boss's boss's boss, we need to we need to build a consulting division, because we're selling these people a dream, and they're not able to implement this dream themselves. So it's contingent on us, and it's the right thing for us to do to help them implement that dream. And the boss' boss' boss sat with his arm arms folded and said, no.

Adam Gray [00:15:14]:

We sell licenses. And I I that was one of the most depressing meetings I've had in my entire life, because it it it became very clear that that person's view, not universally shared across the organization, I hasten to add, that person's view was one of profiteering, not about solving problems. It was absolutely about getting revenue out of people. And and I guess that that if you're in an organisation where something like that happens, what what can you do? Because

Doug Betts [00:15:44]:

this is the the

Adam Gray [00:15:45]:

you know, there there will be plenty of people that will will take the route which delivers them the most compensation. But equally, there'll be plenty of people that actually do, as you said, want to make a difference. You know, they want to to get a hug from the client at the end of the the project.

Doug Betts [00:15:59]:

And I think in that organisation, it's got a lifespan on it. If your if your organisation you work for can't deliver what you ultimately want to do, then that's when it is sometimes time to walk away. It's a shame because I think, yes, in your case, it was shortsighted of the business owner because, again, they could have made more revenue from a consulting division, and it's expanding the offering and keeping people there longer because it's then important way you need to think about the customer journey like you did and what people are actually experiencing along the way at different times and how you can link products and services together to, yeah, create that great experience that will stop them going off because I think, yeah, if you don't do it, somebody else will. And, yeah, so incredibly shortsighted. And I think this is the other sort of thing to answer your question and to go back to the original point about what can people get badly wrong. I think it's the MDs who surround themselves with smiling, nodding dogs, and therefore come under the disillusion that they think everything is right in the world because it isn't. A good business owner will welcome being challenged by people because they cannot be an expert in everything, and I know I'm not, which is why, you know, I pay an accountant. I pay VAs.

Doug Betts [00:17:08]:

I pay people to do things that I can't be bothered to do myself or I know I'm not as good at or they can do quicker. This conversation I was having with Rob just before we started the meeting today. So I think, yeah, to to come back to the question, unless that MD is willing to sort of see that, actually, it's good to be challenged and it's good to listen to other points of view, and I think, yes, it's fine if they come back with a really good business reason to say why that wasn't a good idea right now. Then perhaps, again, it's something they could have bought. So I think all that the MD could have done differently there is perhaps entered into some open communication about where they're coming from. Mhmm. But, yeah, to answer the question rather depressingly for an employee, you get to the point where you think, actually, I can't help you anymore. We're not a good fit for each other anymore, and then it might be time to actually look for another company that does offer that kind of thing.

Doug Betts [00:17:54]:

So the kind of companies people want to work for will be the ones where they feel they've got that voice.

Rob Durant [00:18:02]:

And with that, that was the day that Adam Quiet quit.

Adam Gray [00:18:07]:

Yeah. But but, you know, I think what's really interesting is that that within organizations, it doesn't take many people with that attitude to to spoil the whole organization.

Doug Betts [00:18:17]:

Mhmm.

Rob Durant [00:18:17]:

And I

Adam Gray [00:18:17]:

know that that certainly in this business, there were many, many people that I really rated and thought were tremendous. And many of those people have now left the organization, probably for similar kinds of reasons, where, you know, I'm being well paid, but actually there's more to it than just the paycheck at the end of the month.

Doug Betts [00:18:34]:

Yeah. And this is a big message I'm trying to get across to any business owners, founders, MDs who are listening to this, is to actually take a critical look at yourself and how you're seen in the business, and to actually open your mind to listening to this kind of feedback because it could be a game changer for you, and it could make your business more profitable, if you just sort of adapt the way to the way of doing things and think about what your workforce wants. I mean, if your workforce are old school and they just want to come and do the job and go home again, and you want to keep offering the same product virtually unchanged, then carry on. But very few businesses operate like that now, and most of them will go down this innovation route or will need to if they wanna survive.

Rob Durant [00:19:16]:

I wanna pick up on that profitable piece. And and earlier, you had mentioned, investment. So what is the value of culture to an organization? And more importantly, how do we measure that? How do we quantify that? How can we make that tangible for, business owners and MDs?

Doug Betts [00:19:38]:

I think to measure the data, you need to look at some various factors. So I think things like your NPS, so your net promoter score in terms of your employee satisfaction ratings, because that's a good way of measuring engagement satisfaction in a job. But you can also look at more financially related, benefits as well to this. So, again, what percentage of people are putting in grievances? What percentage of people are long term sick, and how much is that costing you in terms of money? What is your employee churn rate? So what is your average role in turnover over the last 12 months? Are there any particular peaks? It's interesting because I was talking to a client of mine this week about this very subject, and they do monthly sort of NPS checks, and you get peaks and troughs. They then do a quick annual survey as well, which kind of evens out the bumps, which mean it's a good thing for them because it meant their senior leadership team didn't need to panic as much as they thought they did because when you look at the bigger picture over the year, it actually isn't as bad as perhaps you get a very bad month when everyone's working to a deadline and is stressed out. So it's naturally gonna give a slightly lower score than they would do overall because I think always important to see the big picture. But, yeah, those are the kind of metrics and data that you'd need to look at. The other one is cost of hiring as well.

Doug Betts [00:20:51]:

So, again, if you're constantly hiring people and they're not staying very long, you can look at how much it actually costs you not just to place a job advert, but to spend your time looking at CVs, carrying out interviews, training up new hires only for them to leave. So I think those are the useful kind of bits of data that you can analyze as a founder, look for patterns in. And when that's going in the right direction, you know you're getting something right in terms of your culture and, how employees feel about working for you and staying there.

Rob Durant [00:21:23]:

You mentioned NPS scores and, surveys. Talk to me a moment about, the traditional annual reviews and the impact they have on company culture.

Doug Betts [00:21:38]:

Yeah. I hate employee appraisals. I openly admit it, and I always do a cheer if I manage to persuade my clients to drop them because in my view, they serve absolutely zero purpose in today's world. They're I think they're left over from a bygone era when businesses were very static, particularly since then. It's like manufacturing where not much changed year on year. You'd set the annual objectives, and that would be it. In today's business world, things move considerably faster, and spending the time filling out a piece of paper and looking at those experiences. It doesn't it just takes up time.

Doug Betts [00:22:17]:

It doesn't add profitability. It doesn't add value. And I've it surprises me when I've seen modern innovative companies do so much right, but they're still stuck in the 19 eighties with this particular bad habit. Now when I say all that, what I'm not saying is don't communicate with your employees at all. You still need a different methodology to do it. So I recommend things like having regular frequent check ins and data's proven to do this just informally fortnightly seems to be quite a good way of touching base with people regularly. And it's something that doesn't have to be long, doesn't have to be complicated. It can be 10 minutes.

Doug Betts [00:22:52]:

It can be a walk. It can be a cup of coffee. It doesn't have to be a formal sit down meeting, but that's a good sort of habit to get into in terms of making sure that you're knowing what's going on in your employees' lives. So also good to continue to set objectives as well because, again, it's motivating employees. It's giving them something that they can work towards, and I think people need to have goals, targets. But the reason I say do it more often than once a year is because things change in business. So there's no point me setting a goal for somebody next week if it's gonna be out of date a few days later. It's about regularly reviewing it.

Doug Betts [00:23:28]:

But people will generally like something to feel that they're working towards. And, again, it comes to a bigger picture of does everybody in the company actually know why the company exists and what it sets out to do, and what are they doing on a daily basis to contribute towards that rather than just working in a silo where they just focus on what they've been doing every day, but don't think about what else is going on around them or

Adam Gray [00:23:49]:

the bigger picture. So so what does so how does a leader do this stuff? Because, you know, we're a tiny company, so it's pretty easy for Tim or I to speak to everybody in the business. But when you get to larger organizations, you know, I think that the there's there's a very real risk, isn't there, that that this becomes a a communications department activity. You need to understand what the business does. So here's our vision and mission statement. And, you know, this is it's it's a bunch of verbiage normally from from somebody that's written in lovely prose. But it it's not the same as speaking to somebody. And what you're talking about is a is quite a sort of touchy feely way of doing things, which is great.

Adam Gray [00:24:36]:

But how how does that scale? So if I've got a 100 people that work for me or 500 people that work for me, how how can I dip test that audience to understand what's going on in a in a meaningful way where it's not just a case of me asking you questions? So you're happy with this? You're happy because, actually, that's not the same thing as a conversation, is it?

Doug Betts [00:24:56]:

No. And what I'm talking about here is a qualitative conversation rather than measurable data. And I think if you've got 500 people in an organization, it's getting your structure right so that you've got managers who are actually good with the right leadership skills to have those kind of conversations. And I spend a lot of my time training managers on how to have these conversations, how to ask the right questions. Mhmm. So they're open ended, and you get the right kind of feedback from employees. And then that way, it's not an onerous task. It's not like one person has to look at 500 bits of data and remember it all and try and make it mean something.

Doug Betts [00:25:31]:

It's that you set your structure right so that one manager doesn't perhaps more have more than between, say, 5 8 direct reports at the very most so that they're not overwhelmed by that task of trying to speak to 20, 30, 40 people. I think the way to do it, yeah, have the qualitative conversation. And then if you get the right kind of tech, and there's plenty of systems out there that will do things like that, is where it can then be summarized, recorded, and it can then give meaningful stats and data back to somebody at the top of the tree who needs to then sort of see, okay. What's the company mood like at the moment? Where is department that's lower than the others, and what's going on like that? So I think, yeah, it might take one person, but I think a mixture of technology and good training will kind of get you to that place where it doesn't become an overwhelming chore that's then lost. The other side side of this as well is if you've got performance issues with somebody, you can then use those mechanisms to start to document it because there's so many times I'm coaching managers about how to deal with the problem. They say, yeah. We don't like this person. We wanna get rid of them.

Doug Betts [00:26:33]:

I say, yes. They've done some terrible things. Where's the evidence that you've spoken to them? They've had all the conversations, but that evidence doesn't exist, and we need the evidence to be able to move forward on it. So, again, this is a good mechanism of being able to informally capture some of that stuff as well as the overall picture of an organization and where it's at.

Adam Gray [00:26:50]:

I I guess that there's also a degree of of coaching needed for the leadership team. Because just because you're running the business, there's no guarantee you understand any of this stuff. Like, you know, we we all work in or or have worked in organisations where you've been really good at something, so you've been promoted to managing people who are good at that thing rather than someone that's a good manager.

Rob Durant [00:27:10]:

Absolutely.

Adam Gray [00:27:10]:

And and but our our chairman uses an expression which is delightful, which is, beatings will continue until morale improves. Yeah. And kind of when you're at the top of the organisation, it must be like, okay, we've got a problem in this department. How can we force that department to be more on brand or or more more excited or more committed? So so how do you go about tackling that?

Doug Betts [00:27:36]:

It's a good question. I think the answer is it's making sure that managers at all levels are coached to have a difficult conversation with whoever's in charge of that team, and that they can coach them through working out what they need to do next to correct a problem. And, I mean, I do a lot of leadership training with people. And quite often, I'm put in front of middle managers, newly promoted managers who are very keen to learn because this is my story, and this is why I'm so passionate about this topic. I was that person 20 plus years ago who was put in front of the team with no training, no support, and I'm surprised, and they didn't succeed. So I spent my career learning how to get it right, coaching other managers on how to do it. As an HR person, I'll always say I'll coach and advise you, but I'm not gonna have your tricky conversation for you. You've got to do that yourself.

Doug Betts [00:28:19]:

But it comes back to my earlier point about senior leaders needing to know that they are part of the solution, and they can't think they know it all. And I've worked with so many organizations where, yeah, the junior managers get put through the training. Senior leading leaders don't think they need it, but they really do, perhaps.

Adam Gray [00:28:35]:

Well, I I I you don't need to teach me. I've been doing this for 20 years. I've been managing teams for 20 years, so there's nothing you can show me.

Doug Betts [00:28:42]:

And I'd be saying, how well is that? And then I would usually drag up the evidence that proves something to the contrary. I mean, you you need to have the moment where you can get somebody to reflect and go, yeah. How what do you think you do differently next time? How well do you think that went? And you sort of have those coaching conversations with them. But, yeah, it's those who think they know it all, very rarely do, and need perhaps more help than those that are open to, being trained and coached. And I have sadly numerous examples I could quote on this one and numerous stories I could tell on the subject.

Bertrand Godillot [00:29:14]:

Yeah. So so so, Doug, on this, so, obviously, I mean, well understood, I mean, the this part of the equation. But, equally, the other part of the equation is, you know, when the new employees join the the company. What's your experience on the of the onboarding process when it comes to, you know, setting the ground for, a corporate culture?

Rob Durant [00:29:38]:

Mhmm.

Adam Gray [00:29:38]:

Because

Doug Betts [00:29:40]:

I think

Bertrand Godillot [00:29:40]:

My experience is not is more a system use experience rather than a a true, a true cultural, experience. Let's put it this way.

Doug Betts [00:29:53]:

For me, the answer lies in getting employees involved in creating the culture themselves. It's not just about the senior leadership team coming up with buzzwords like integrity and and the like and putting them in nice little posters that sit on the toilet doors and in the reception area because that's not values. That's just random words. But it's then how do you embed those, what you stand for in everything that you do, in every process, in every experience, but it's how do you come up with them in the first place. And if a senior leadership team dreams them up and then dictates them, are people going to buy into them and think that's part of what they're about? I doubt they will because they haven't been part of creating it. So the way to do it is that you before you create those values, you run workshops, and I've done this in the past with people where you ask them some very broad questions about the company, like, what's great about working here? What would you like to change? What works well? You get them to have those discussions, and then you pull those together to find the common themes, And then you can create your values from that so at least they are then reflective of the people in the organization at the time. And then you can define what good looks like, what bad looks like, but it's so key then that those behaviors apply to the senior leadership team just as much as anybody else because, again, coming back to my earlier point.

Rob Durant [00:31:07]:

Mhmm.

Doug Betts [00:31:08]:

So often, you can sort of you can put integrity on the wall all the time. But if you see senior leaders, getting their mates in through the back door rather than hiring properly or, you know, pay appearing to behave badly with no consequences, then people are instantly going to become disengaged and go, well, why should I bother? And then that's when it takes a strong leader at the top who's not afraid to have those difficult conversations and pull their own senior leadership team up if they're demonstrating poor behaviors.

Rob Durant [00:31:35]:

And I thought it was just they had the wrong picture on the framed poster. Oh, you went with the eagle and and and not the the, man helping somebody up the hill.

Doug Betts [00:31:48]:

Yeah. So That's right. Go on.

Rob Durant [00:31:51]:

Doug, you mentioned earlier that business is always changing. Of course, it is. I presume that means culture is as well. What are the signs that a company's culture may be becoming toxic?

Doug Betts [00:32:08]:

Again, when you get people leaving without really saying a lot, without raising their voice or saying why they're upset, when you get the high levels of sickness, when you get lots of grievances and disciplinaries, when there's negative reviews on Glassdoor, and on Indeed. So if you get the bad, PR out there in in public forums, and also it's really just from hearsay so employees will talk each other even if they don't speak up formally, but you kind of get word on the street that so and so is not a great place to work because so many people have left recently. Or if particularly if it's a close knit industry where everybody knows everybody and people will talk. So I think this is where you know you've got the signs of a toxic culture. Yeah. If people feel they can't speak up, if the senior leaders aren't engaged or living and breathing it, if leaders haven't been invested in so they don't know how to manage, they've just been promoted into to roles, without the training or support, and then they're managing based on perhaps how they were managed, which might not be very well. And if you, yeah, if you got the MD who surrounds themselves with the nodding dogs who don't dare disagree with them. So it's all of those kind of things to me lead to a toxic culture, and I see variants of those things pop up time and time again in different organizations.

Doug Betts [00:33:21]:

Sometimes not straight away, sometimes it happens over a period of time, but it's there because human behavior, sometimes it's predictable, but sometimes it isn't. And it's really for me, my job is to try and stay ahead of the curve and, see what might happen next and stop it happening.

Rob Durant [00:33:36]:

As a follow-up, how often do you see leaders looking for those signs, monitoring those signs versus not even being aware to look for that. Not not overtly ignoring it, just Mhmm. Of being obtuse.

Doug Betts [00:33:56]:

Not as often having done it for so long now, I I used to see things occurring. I could jump on them before they got out of hand, but it's like having that extra pair of eyes. If you're in an office environment every day or in a workshop. It's half of it's doing your own job, but half of it keeping an ear and an eye out at all times to to see what's going on and to try and read between the lines as to what's not being said as well as to what is and looking at people's body language. And I think there's so much I can do to train leaders on how to do that, And it's something that people should be definitely doing more of. And even if they can't control an entire company culture, they are at least responsible for that in their own team, so they can be trying to put some right behaviors in there.

Tim Hughes [00:34:44]:

And and, you you know, if you find toxicity in a company, what should you do about

Doug Betts [00:34:50]:

it? If you're an employee, I think you can raise it. There are whistle blowing processes here in the UK that we can follow, particularly if you see somebody doing something illegal. Again, it comes down to the culture. If you've got the psychological safety where you can speak out, but you should be raising things with your manager in the first instance. If your manager has a problem, you go to their manager. If it's a big issue, you go to HR. If the problem is with the MD, you go to the board. But you should be able to feel that you can speak out, and come I always say to people, and I've done this myself, try and come at it constructively.

Doug Betts [00:35:27]:

So don't just moan about something, but say why it's an issue, what impact it's having on the business, and what you think could be potentially done to resolve the situation. Because people can be quite creative. It's not always down to a leader to come up with the answers. And whenever people have raised a grievance to me as an HR person, the first question I always ask them is what would you like to see as an ideal outcome? And then it gives you an idea as to what they're thinking and whether that's something that's realistic and achievable. So in a nutshell, speak up.

Adam Gray [00:35:55]:

Yeah. It that requires a lot of bravery though, doesn't it?

Doug Betts [00:35:59]:

It really does.

Adam Gray [00:36:00]:

If if if I have a problem with my manager, that's relatively easy to deal with, because the chances are I know their manager a little

Rob Durant [00:36:09]:

bit.

Adam Gray [00:36:10]:

But if there's a problem 2 or 3 or 4 steps up the chain, You know, this is this is career ending stuff, isn't it, actually?

Doug Betts [00:36:20]:

Yeah. I'm not gonna pretend it's easy. In an ideal world, yes, people would listen to you. You'd be taken seriously. But, ultimately, even if you raised a grievance and it was upheld, it can sometimes be the end of the line in that job, which is why so many people don't raise grievances and don't make a fuss when they probably should because they're scared of what might happen next. And I think it's a shame because if people listen to the feedback and there's somebody up the chain who will listen and look at it objectively rather than actually try and jump to the senior person's defense, and they could learn something and the culture could improve. So it's also it's about having balls, but also not just from the employee's point of view raising it, but from the senior person who hears the case, because and it depends really with the the employee. They have to write up the risk of what's the culture like? Am I gonna lose my job at the end of it? Does that matter to me? If I do, am I ready to move on? And it's a shame because quite often, by the time people raise grievances, they've already mentally left or clocked out already, which is too late to then say Yes.

Adam Gray [00:37:18]:

It's festered, hasn't it? And they've become they've become quite, quite militant about it. But I I think there's always this risk, isn't there, that that, you know, you you want to do the right thing.

Rob Durant [00:37:30]:

You

Adam Gray [00:37:30]:

know, if you see something which is unjust happening, you want to you want to try to address that problem, and you want to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Mhmm. But I mean, we see time and again, particularly in very large organizations or governmental things, that that somebody has become a whistleblower. And they've and and actually, that's not just ended their career in that company. That's ended their career everywhere. Because, you know, I'm I'm gonna tell the board about what an awful, person Tim is within the organization. And then actually, I become branded as a troublemaker. And then when I go to the company for a reference, it's like it's Tim that's gotta write the reference.

Adam Gray [00:38:08]:

So Tim then goes, well, I wouldn't trust this person because they've demonstrated they can't be and it's like the whole pack of cards potentially comes down. Doesn't it? Yeah. So is there is there a mechanism for people to, I don't know, to do this anonymously? Or or or do they just have to, as you said, to kind of mentally clock out and go, you you know, my days here are done. I'm leaving.

Doug Betts [00:38:29]:

You can do some things anonymously up to a point, but, ultimately, you sometimes need to stand up and be counted so you've got some evidence if you need to go against a person if they've done something illegal. We can't just be anonymized statements. There are some things you can do to keep people safe if they come forward, and in fact, you know who's signed the statements, but you anonymize them if you show them to the person in question. Although sometimes, again, they can work it out. I think fundamentally trying to solve the problem further, you have to go back to getting the line manager to look for the signs that somebody's becoming less happy and listening to them and stop a small problem becoming a big one. And the mechanism I often use for this is to do a stay interview with people. So you go around everybody, and you get asked the questions about how happy you are. So it's a bit like an exit interview, which I think is a little bit too late because by the time you conduct that, somebody's already made the decision to leave.

Doug Betts [00:39:17]:

So I've always said do the stay interview first. And then that way, you get the feedback before they've become that disengaged that they've resigned or got a better offer. So you're hopefully then trying to act on feedback, and then that comes down to the whole other issue of teaching your leaders how to act to feedback in a timely way so that it's listened to and you can take and implement bits of it that you need to. Mhmm. So, again, stopping small problems becoming big ones.

Adam Gray [00:39:47]:

Yeah. I mean, it it is it is complicated and and something which is fraught with potential landmines, isn't it, to to to step on? But I guess I guess the other question, certainly one that springs to mind for me is that that this is yeah. So like I said, you know, we're a small organisation. Tim and I are aligned on everything, and the people around us get access to as much of us as they need. And, you know, I like to think that we lead by example within the organisation. But if if we were a business of a few 100 people, our our jobs were much less operational and much more managerial and people based roles that we had. To do this, because it's an ongoing process, it's not like once a year, we have a we have a big interview. You know, it's it's an ongoing process.

Adam Gray [00:40:40]:

This becomes a major expense, doesn't it? Not just in terms of cash, but in terms of time as well. So so how do businesses balance these two things? You know, you want all of the insights you possibly can. I've spent 5 years training you, Doug, so I don't want you to leave because then I've got to try to train Rob for 5 years to get up to your standard. You know, so so there there's the the fiscal benefit of retaining you as a happy productive employee. But there's also this speculative cost of of trying to make sure that you're happy and you stay engaged in the organization by making the changes to the environment that you demand?

Doug Betts [00:41:17]:

I think, say, get short, periodic feedback that's quick and easy to look at and analyze, and that's where having a good app or a bit of tech will really come in handy because you're then you're not wading through papers for hours. You're getting quick insights. And I like a pulse survey because they are just those things, quick, easy. It gives you the instant insight. It takes employees 30 seconds to to complete it. Then it's less onerous, and you're getting that regular feedback rather than a once a year big thing. Again, not a big lover of annual staff surveys for the same reasons because it can take months to analyze it all and even longer to say what you're gonna do about it. And while they're set up with the best of intentions, again, because things move quickly, it's no longer the right mechanism, which is why I still advocate, again, the little and often approach rather than the the big annual approach.

Rob Durant [00:42:06]:

So, Doug, are there any recent innovations or trends that you see that maybe are exciting or promising?

Doug Betts [00:42:18]:

So I think some of the trends I'm seeing, particularly here in the UK, we've got more generations in the workforce than ever before or wanting different things. You could look at it as a nightmare. I find that quite exciting because you get different skill sets, different experiences coming together, and it's better than just having a lot of people who are all virtually the same in terms of what they're they're thinking or wanting out of their experience. There's interesting trends which are go against what you might already be thinking. So, for example, we've had such a lot of noise in the last few years around hybrid working, because I think it some flexibility is here to stay. But, again, I I went to a a CIP investor of work this week, and I looked at some of the stats coming out of that. And, actually, what people are wanting at the moment is employees are more keen on flexible hours rather than flexible location, which I think is a bit different to what you might think on the surface. And, again, I think it gives people the opportunity, and workforce is the opportunity to be innovative about letting people do their best work in the right way and in the right place and the right time that works best for them, and it can really benefit a company.

Doug Betts [00:43:32]:

And I think, yeah, in terms of a trend, I think there's still a big cultural piece for organizations to get over where people feel stigmatized if they dare ask for flexible working even though it's a day one right now. And I know I've gone down a little bit of a rabbit hole with this one, but I think it's quite, quite key to sort of put it in there because it is a it's still a trend. I'm also thinking about well, I think what else is coming up at the moment. Obviously, the big one is AI as well because you've got you you'd be crazy to ignore it because it's gonna come. More things will get automated. It's gonna grow arms and legs. It's gonna become more intelligent. And in many ways, that's a great thing because it can definitely, change the workforce.

Doug Betts [00:44:18]:

It can make things more efficient, but it also changes what you might need out of people. You always need people in some way, shape, or form, but perhaps jobs which exist now might not exist 5 or 10 years down the line. So a good people leader business owner now will be looking at that trend and working out what they need in the future and skilling their team to be ready for it rather than just, carrying on as they are and doing them equivalent to sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending that it's not there.

Adam Gray [00:44:47]:

That that actually, as you as you were were saying that, it it made me think about the gen you said about the the more generations working in in the workplace now than ever before. And, you know, I'm an old person. I'm I'm kinda getting towards the end of my career. And, obviously, when I went out into the workforce, it was a very different place to to what it is today. Now the reality of most organ not all, but most organisations is that they're peopled by individuals like me, people who are in the tail end of their career. You know, I've been here. I've learned all this stuff. I've I've I've grown all of these different skills and and this equity in in my knowledge, in my network, in my finances.

Adam Gray [00:45:32]:

So now I'm able to do to to to run my own business. And I'm employing people who are, because of their position in the workforce, earlier on in their career than me. Therefore, they're younger than me. Therefore, they have a very different expectation of the workplace. And, you know, I I I read lots of stuff about very young people, joining the workforce, and their expectation of of the commitment they make to their job is very different to the commitment that we used to make. So, you know, your first job, Doug, you you went into work and your boss said, we've got an important visitor coming, so it's your turn to clean the toilet today, Doug. And you just rolled up your sleeves and said, alright then. Because actually that was that the the the the smiling part of me thinks, well, that's teamwork, you know.

Adam Gray [00:46:23]:

It's my turn to do this job, even though it's not a very pleasant job. But nowadays, you know, people fold their arms and go, that's not in my job description. It's not my job to do that.

Doug Betts [00:46:32]:

Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:46:32]:

And and so how so how do people, old people like me that are running businesses, how do they reconcile the fact that their view of what a job is and how much the job owns you is very different to people who are coming into the workforce today. And how do you blend those together into a culture that works for everyone?

Doug Betts [00:46:51]:

Yeah. And it is it's not a it's not a 5 minute answer, because I will, answer it as best as I can. I think, yeah, you're you're right. People do have different expectations of coming to work and what they actually want out of it. And I think the key point here is people won't just do something because of somebody's job title and they're telling them to do it. As a business owner, as a leader, you have to earn that respect rather than just thinking it's gonna happen automatically because you own that company. People will sometimes challenge you, and sometimes there's a lot of expectation management on the part of the leader needed in terms of having to tell generation zed. I don't wanna generalize that, no, you won't be the MD in 2 weeks' time just because you've joined us straight out of school, and some people think that there is a fast path to it.

Doug Betts [00:47:35]:

And there isn't always unless you start your own company and make yourself the MD. And, yeah, whole different route there because I love it. I love business owners and innovation and entrepreneurship. So I hope that, actually, I wish schools talk more about it so there were more business owners out there who who felt trained to be able to start doing these ventures rather than naturally going into the world of being an employee. But I think it comes down again, managing the expectations, but also creating the right culture where teams do muck in and help each other out. And, no, you might not be cleaning the toilet all the time, but it's sort of doing it and getting them to see the value of doing it once. So and, again, with my slightly legal head on, yes, I write into job descriptions that we can ask you to do anything that's reasonable in line with your with your job. And I know you use cleaning the toilet as a very, very sort of, a rare rare I'm trying to think of the right word here.

Doug Betts [00:48:32]:

The reason now it's resonating with me slightly here is because I know that a lot of gyms lately have tried to save money over here because they try and get their PTs to clean the toilets, and I can see why the PTs aren't happy about that because they're not paid cleaners. They went to train teach people a certain role, and it's to think a business trying to cut corners and save money by not employing a proper cleaner. So I'd say in that circumstance, now I think they should invest in the skill set rather than expecting everyone to muck in. But flip side, if you're in an environment where you might do things that you wouldn't normally do, but it helps out and it gets the team through a crisis, then that's a really good thing to foster it. But I think the key to it here is that the MD has to be seen to be doing that as well, not just asking the workforce to do it. So if you've got a big event coming up in your business that's gonna get new clients in the door, you're going to be, you know, the MD might be the one who's stuffing envelopes or putting posters up as well as other people so they can see if it's if it's good enough for the MD, it's good enough for them. And I think that's the best advice I can give on that is lead by example.

Adam Gray [00:49:36]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Durant [00:49:39]:

Do you have any examples of maybe well intentioned cultural initiatives that that backfired?

Doug Betts [00:49:47]:

Apart from the, posters on the toilet doors with random fireworks on, yes. That that's one of them. Yes. I I do have a a thing about rewarding people, and do it thinking one size fits all because I've had people, you know, I there was one company that sent everybody a box of biscuits, which was a well intentioned gesture. It annoyed some people because it was actually quite a funny story. It was sent out by my team at the time, and I know I probably overreacted a bit. But it annoyed me slightly because it didn't even mean it all well. They know I don't actually eat biscuits.

Doug Betts [00:50:21]:

It didn't think about people with diabetes.

Tim Hughes [00:50:23]:

Diabetes. Yeah.

Doug Betts [00:50:25]:

And, actually, there was some person whose wife thought they were having an affair when they suddenly received this present that turned up out of nowhere that they weren't expecting. So, again, that's a it's a slightly extreme example of how a very good intention piece of engagement went wrong. The other example I'll give is where you try and engage people in the way that makes you feel like you're the parent as the employer because, ultimately, it's like sort of sign peep signposting people towards sort of health, well-being, or putting a fruit bowl in the office. Again, it's not up to you to sort of wag a finger and say mother and father know best. You've got to not patronise your staff. And similar similarly to to Nick, one of my HR colleagues, sings. I also have a thing about free pizza Friday because there is no, you know, flinging a free pizza at somebody once a week or letting them wear jeans in the office on a Friday is no substitute if you've treated them like dirt with a really bad culture for the rest of the week, but it's alright if they make up for it with a freebie on a Friday. So, again, that's another example of an initiative which I'd say probably needs to stop.

Rob Durant [00:51:29]:

This is

Tim Hughes [00:51:29]:

how they treat people in prison, isn't it? Give them pizza on Fridays as well.

Rob Durant [00:51:36]:

You know, there's a quick story about prisoner food in Maine. They were giving their prisoners lobster so often that they rebelled. Now lobster's a a a delicacy, but it it was so abundant off the coast of Maine that it was just easy enough to come by. Can you imagine, balking at, a a delicacy? I don't know. I think

Adam Gray [00:52:03]:

I would we never had we we never had lobster when I was in prison. Let me put it

Rob Durant [00:52:09]:

in. Goodness.

Doug Betts [00:52:11]:

Yeah. Street example, I suppose, because it's what they've got used to, so then it just becomes the norm.

Rob Durant [00:52:17]:

I think you're right. Yeah. Mhmm. So, Doug, this has been great. How can people learn more about you? How can they get in touch?

Doug Betts [00:52:27]:

If they go to my website, surebetshr.com, they can get in touch with me that way. Send me a message, join my mailing lists. They can connect with me on LinkedIn or follow my page on Facebook, and I'm pretty responsive to messages. I've also got a book out myself. You're also talking about your authorships at the start of this. Mine's called from new line managed to great people leader, and that's on Amazon. So even if you don't wanna talk to me directly, but you wanna read more about my leadership tips, then just go to Amazon and you can you can buy that. So, yeah, plenty of ways people can get in touch with me if they wanna know more.

Rob Durant [00:53:00]:

And that title again?

Doug Betts [00:53:01]:

From new line manager to great people leader.

Rob Durant [00:53:04]:

Excellent. Alright. Thank you.

Doug Betts [00:53:08]:

Well, thank you for having me.

Rob Durant [00:53:09]:

You're welcome. Absolutely. I

Doug Betts [00:53:10]:

like you.

Rob Durant [00:53:14]:

Oh, here we go. We now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode, get show highlights, beyond the show insights, and reminders of upcoming episodes. You can scan the QR code on screen or visit us at digital download dot live forward slash newsletter. On behalf of the panelists, to our guests, to our audience, thank you all for being a part of this week's digital download, and we'll see you next time. Bye all. Thanks, Doug.

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