This week on The Digital Download, we’re diving into the transformative power of creating a "Living Leadership Legacy" with Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks, President and CEO of TRANSLEADERSHIP, INC. Drawing on her extensive experience working with global corporations, government agencies, and the military, Dr. Wilson-Starks shares how leaders can shape their organizations for sustained success and enduring impact.

We’ll explore questions like:

* How can leaders prepare their organizations for long-term success?

* What are the critical elements of a leadership legacy?

* Why does leadership succession often fail to achieve lasting results?

* How do you build resilience into an organization’s culture?

* What role does leadership play in driving innovation and adaptability?

Dr. Wilson-Starks has a proven history of guiding leaders through change and equipping them to leave meaningful legacies. Her work empowers organizations to thrive across generations by fostering cultures that balance vision, resilience, and collaboration.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks, President and CEO of TRANSLEADERSHIP, INC

This week's Host was -

• Bertrand Godillot, Founder and Managing Partner of Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of DLA Ignite,

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

• Tracy Borreson, Founder and CEO of TLB Coaching & Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite partner

Transcript of The Digital Download 2025-01-10

Bertrand Godillot [00:00:02]:

Good afternoon, good morning, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of the Digital Download, the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live. Now globally syndicated on TuneIn Radio through IBGR, the world's number one business talk, news, and strategy radio network. Today, we're talking about how leaders build cultures that last. We have a special guest, Doctor. Karen Wilson Starks, to help us with the discussion. Karen is president and CEO of TransLeadership, Inc, Growing on her extensive experience working with global corporations, government agencies, and the military, Karen shares how leaders can shape their organizations to sustain success and enduring impact. But before we bring Karen on, let's go around the set and introduce everyone.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:05]:

While we're doing that, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend, ping them, and have them join us. We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience. Audience participation is highly encouraged. So, Adam, why don't you, get us started?

Adam Gray [00:01:24]:

I'd love to. Hello, everybody. I'm Adam Gray, cofounder of DLA Ignite. And, I'm very much looking forward to today. In fact, I'm always looking forward to these shows because they're always really interesting. This is a particularly exciting one because Bertrand is hosting for the first time. So Don't talk

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:42]:

to me about it. Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:01:45]:

So it's great to be here, and I'm really looking forward to this. Thank you, Bertrand.

Tim Hughes [00:01:49]:

Tim. Yes. Thank you. I'm Tim Kueg. I'm the CEO and cofounder of DLA Ignite. And, welcome to Bertrand for being, for being the, podcast producer for the first time. Well done. I'm I'm actually in a bit of a somber mood today, after having seen the, the images coming in from California, of the, the way that the, the wildfires have burnt down all those those houses.

Tim Hughes [00:02:22]:

But, today, we try and, rise above that and and have some fun. I'm looking forward to talking to Karen, so thank you.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:31]:

Excellent. Tracy.

Tracy Borreson [00:02:33]:

Thanks, Bertrand. I am Tracy Morrison, founder of TOB Coaching and Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite. And I couldn't help but think during the intro, do you guys remember when we were just the longest running business talk show on LinkedIn Live, and we've, like, added so many more things that this show is about? And I can't help but think that, like, hey. As a team, maybe we're contributing to how leaders build cultures that last. So I'm excited to have this conversation. I'm a huge fan of doctor Kieran. So, yeah, as always, excited to be here.

Adam Gray [00:03:10]:

And my name thank you, Tracey, and I

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:13]:

I am Bertrand Godillot. I am the managing partner of Odysseus and Co, a very proudly partner. And this is the first time I'm doing this, so please bear with me. As I said, this week on the digital download, we'll speak with Karen. Karen has a proven history of guiding leaders through change and equipping them to leave meaningful legacies. Work empowers organizations to thrive across generations by fostering cultures that balance vision, resilience, and collaboration. Let's bring her on.

Tracy Borreson [00:03:53]:

Yay. Welcome, Dash Karen.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:03:56]:

I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for so much. And yes.

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:59]:

Karen, good morning. Welcome. Karen, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you to where you are today.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:04:12]:

Alright. Great. Well, first of all, let me just say that I'm a person who's really very passionate about partnering with executive leaders to create positive and profitable cultures. And I'm also someone who loves people. I like people from all different countries, all different backgrounds. I find that exciting. So I've built a global business as a result of that. And I am also a person of faith.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:04:39]:

So I see things not just in the physical world, but I see things from a transcendent perspective as well, that which you can't necessarily see with the naked eye. And I would say by background and training, I am a clinical psychologist. I was in the 6th grade, way back in early grammar school when I decided to become a psychologist. And how that happened is that I was reading the dear Abby column, which is an advice column that used to be in the newspaper. And I said, this is great. People are writing in. They have issues, and someone's answering. And I said, I wanna be that person who helps people in that way.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:05:19]:

And so I said, that must be what psychologists do. I didn't even know any psychologists, but I thought that was it. And that's how I decided to be a psychologist. And so I've I'd say I'm kind of on my 4th career in the field of psychology. And this year, I'm celebrating 30 years with my own company, TransLeadership, Incorporated. And work is is is a special place for me because I also met my husband at work. He and I were active duty army officers, so we were in the military. We were both stationed at West Point in New York, the US Military Academy.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:05:55]:

I was the clinical director of the cadet counseling center, and he was the tactical officer in charge of 1 of the cadet companies. So I bring that military lens as well, and I'm I'm a testament to the fact you could meet someone great to be your spouse at work. So this year, we'll be celebrating 38 years of marriage.

Adam Gray [00:06:14]:

Wow.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:06:15]:

And then as far as just other personal background, I am, ethnically, I'm African American and also Cherokee. On the Native American side, on both sides of my family, I am both. And so I love to see what the contribution is of ethnic background and heritage on a person's identity. I would say I have, some just wonderful people in my life. I've got 2 nieces, 4 great nieces, 2 great nephews, 1 great great nephew, 5 godchildren ranging in age from 45 to 10. And I'm very close to my father who's still living, and my mother-in-law will be a 100 years old this year, god willing. So that's a little bit about who I am.

Bertrand Godillot [00:07:03]:

That sounds great. And and and I promise we'll we'll we'll try to to to to keep organized here.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:07:13]:

Well, you see what's fun for you. That's great.

Bertrand Godillot [00:07:16]:

Okay, Karen. Let's start with a foundational question. How can leaders prepare their organizations for long term success?

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:07:27]:

Well, we're talking about the topic of developing a culture. And I would say long term success is dependent on creating a culture that's kind of like soil, where you're growing people like you would grow plants and crops. So that soil has to be fertile. It has to have nutrients in it. It's it's kind of like the air that people will breathe in the organization. So you wanna make sure that that air is clear. It's not full of toxins and pollutants, and that there's it's oxygen filled. So when I think about leaders, how can they do this? They're they're purposefully creating a culture that will address the vision and mission that they're called to to do.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:08:19]:

So that's that's number 1.

Tracy Borreson [00:08:21]:

Okay. So, actually, I have a question from that, if that's okay, Bertrand. I mean, I feel like culture is very personal. So, like, each of us have our own identity. Each organization has its own business culture. And as you mentioned, doctor Karen, that is contributed to by the vision and mission and the goals. I know one of the things that I've experienced, especially in, like, growth organizations, is that there's almost a impending culture shift in that. Like, I have x amount of people who are contributing to a culture.

Tracy Borreson [00:08:57]:

Now I am significantly growing, so I'm gonna have more people. And so what are some of the things you see in that process, in that growth process that either make that, culture development successful or fail?

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:09:14]:

Yes. And, you know, there's one thing that you mentioned, and that is this whole notion of companies that are growing and this this this whole notion that there may be a shift because they're growing and people have their own personal values. I would say this. There has to be a match between what your personal values are that you're bringing to the organization and also the values that that organization espouses. And if you have some values that really are not consistent with the organization, you will tend to be unhappy working there, and the organization will give you feedback on a regular basis that somehow you're not living up to their expectations. So I think that we have to think about culture as, in the most basic definition, the way we do things around here, how we treat people, and there has to be alignment between the individuals and also the organization. So I've had situations where someone may come in with a value. I'm thinking of an executive that I know who came into the organization with a value of, you know, taking your time, doing things methodically, and

Tim Hughes [00:10:29]:

it was

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:10:29]:

a slower process. The organizational culture was one of speed and get it done quickly. And no matter what that person was going to do, that was not gonna be a good fit for them. And so ultimately, they had to leave that organization because those values didn't match.

Tracy Borreson [00:10:47]:

I've been part of one of those organizations before where speed was more important than the quality. And I remember my boss once asking me for a 3 out of 10, and I was like, I don't do 3 out of 10. I do 8 out of 10, but 8 out of 10 takes longer than 3 out of 10.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:11:06]:

This is true. And so you'd be unhappy every day in a culture that required that of you. And that's what people have to look at. And organizations also have to look at it too, in terms of how they're recruiting, how they're attracting and selecting people. And if someone doesn't have that temperament that goes with the underlying values that sort of demonstrate what your culture is about, they're probably not maybe a good fit.

Adam Gray [00:11:32]:

So I I have a question for you, doctor Karen. So, if I join a large organization, I have to fit in with their culture. You know? If I want to be happy, I that should be my natural culture, but I can I can change how I feel about things and how I do things to fit in with the culture that they've already established? But if I'm starting an organization from scratch, and I think that that you're probably a really good person to answer this because you have African American heritage and you have Native American heritage. So you come from 2 different cultural backgrounds that you've had to kind of bring together and and make sense of and and process. So I founded a company. The company's growing. The company's growing really quickly. We're bringing more people on board, and I want to imprint my view of how things should be on the culture of the organization.

Adam Gray [00:12:23]:

But the people that I bring on board help, whether I like it or not, reshape that culture. So how can I integrate the culture, which may be right in many ways that mine's wrong? How can I integrate that into the organization without losing the very kind of crux of the fact that it's my organization, and I'm very passionate about how I want it to be? How can I balance those two things?

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:12:47]:

That's a great question. I love the idea of thinking about an organization as a growing organism. It's not static. And, ideally, you want the people who are coming on board to influence what happens in the organization. That means respecting each other to the level where you're listening to say, is this something that we really want to have as a part of our culture, what someone is saying? Or is it so foreign that maybe it doesn't fit? This requires conversations that people have. So I think there has to be some baseline of a common ground that you can sort of visit on and hang out on to say, here's where we sort of meet, and then a willingness to expand your mindset and your thoughts as well. A lot of times, organizations have a difficult time bringing in different individuals if we're talking about diversity, for example, or inclusion, because they don't wanna be influenced by the person coming in. They just wanna dictate in the one way about how that person should operate.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:13:54]:

But, really, it's a conversation. It's a two way communication and a willingness for the organization to shift and also the person so long as we're not really talking about such a major, major shift that it jeopardizes what it is that you're trying to do in the marketplace and what your mission and vision really are. So I think, yeah, learning from each other. And you'll come up with what I call the 3rd solution, which is better than what either of you would have done on your own. You're gonna do it together, and it's gonna be more profound.

Adam Gray [00:14:27]:

Well, when we founded the business, Tim and I, and we've said it many times since, we don't profess to have the monopoly on good ideas. And we recognize that we are 2 old, white, bald, middle aged men. And consequently, our view is very kind of similar and singular. And which is why we've deliberately tried to to find people and work with people who are from different cultures, different ethnicities, different genders, in order that we can be relevant to as many people as possible out there. Because our view is, like, I don't see that as a problem. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem. It just means it's not a problem for me. But I think that open mindset, it does, as as you said, it does carry risks, doesn't it? Sometimes people join and and, they're they they destabilize some of the better things about an organization.

Adam Gray [00:15:18]:

There's there's certainly that risk, isn't there?

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:15:21]:

Yes. And that's why you also have to think about sometimes a person just doesn't fit. Okay? And it's not because you're being closed minded, but let's say you have in your organization a value that's for excellence and responsibility and also for ownership of errors and mistakes. And someone comes in, and they're the, you know, fly by the seat of your pants. They believe in covering errors and mistakes and getting away with whatever they can get away with because that's the culture that they came from. That's not gonna fit in your company, and you have to be able to identify that and say, okay. This is not who we are. This is not who we want to be.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:16:02]:

So you reject that part, yet someone else may come with an idea you never thought of, and it really does serve you, your customers, your environment very well. And you say, okay. We can integrate that in because it fits at the basic level of who we are and who we want to be.

Tracy Borreson [00:16:23]:

I have a I I know there's a really good question in the comments too, so I wanna make sure we get to that. But, I think this concept of, like, culture as evolutionary is something that I mean so I'm in marketing. There's a lot of times when people try and do marketing things where it's just like, I'm gonna create my brand. I'm gonna create my logo. I'm gonna create my tagline, and that's gonna be permanent. It's it's, like, one big effort to create this thing, and then it's supposed to just, like, stay static for x amount of times. And I and I think specifically in culture, if people are being added and subtracted from the organization on an ongoing basis, then there is a lot of, movement that happens in that. And so, doctor Karen, in your work, how important is it for people to just, like, really embrace that a culture is evolving? This isn't static.

Tracy Borreson [00:17:22]:

It's not supposed to be about me as the leader setting this vision and expectation and then never changing it? How important is that to the overall success of the conversation?

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:17:36]:

Yes. I think that you have to have a mindset of some agility and some flexibility. What you're trying to do often doesn't shift so much like the big picture of what are we here for and what is our bigger purpose. The methodologies often change. The venues for how you get it done can change. So imagine if you were way back in the day, and you're doing all of your writing on stone tablets, and you insist that we keep writing on stone tablets in today's time, or you're writing on scrolls and papyrus paper or whatever. And we're in a digital age where you can write on your computer. You could write through your phone.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:18:17]:

You can write on paper. There are so many ways to express yourself. We're not right at all. You could be on Zoom or some other platform. And so I think it's saying to yourself, how will something new bring an enhancement that's valuable for ultimately what we're trying to put out there in the marketplace? That's where you wanna be flexible. You don't wanna be so flexible necessarily where it violates some deeply held bottom line kinds of values that are important. And it's the values that tell the people in the organization, how do we behave? What do we do, and what don't we do?

Adam Gray [00:18:58]:

So should we do

Bertrand Godillot [00:18:59]:

we Mark's question? Yes. Exactly. Thank you, Adam.

Adam Gray [00:19:02]:

Yeah. So so Mark. Hi, Mark. Nice to see you. His question is, curious as to how culture, mission, and vision plays a part in military service. Is it more or less important in companies?

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:19:15]:

I wouldn't say that it's more important. It's just as important. And I think what's different sometimes in the military is there is an existing rubric of a culture that's transmitted to the people who join military service. And it doesn't mean that in your specific role that you don't personalize it for how you show up in your job. But you're signing up for a culture that's already in place, kind of like if you were joining a fraternity or something of that sort that's got years years of a way of operating. And even with that being said, what I have seen is the military brings together some of the best and brightest minds in the country. And they take those people, and they continue to learn together and also to take things to a new level even though, again, that baseline is the same. The way it shows up can vary and can be different from place to place and depending on what you're doing.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:20:16]:

I remember, for example, when I was at West Point, and I was working with cadets, and we did an operation that was a 24 hour operation. So we had to be on duty on shifts in 24 hours, and my cadets were the only ones who worked the entire summer. Now the basic approach there is everything is the same because, you know, the military kinda likes uniformity, and everything is the same. And I was able to make a case for why the cadets who worked the entire summer and who worked the 24 hour shift had to have some different rest periods than the ones who didn't do that. And that was different from the culture that they had in place, and yet it was relevant for the team that I was supporting.

Bertrand Godillot [00:21:01]:

So, Karen, why does, leadership succession often fail to achieve, lasting results?

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:21:12]:

Well, there are several things about that. Sometimes, you might be, again, selecting the wrong people, and you may not be asking the right questions or looking at the right background information to see what's needed. Not only does is the person great that you're bringing in, you're you're looking at how will they add value to our organization. And that's really an important part. You've gotta think about what are the strengths you have? What are the strengths you need to bring in alongside that to continue to be successful? And sometimes people are bringing in individuals who don't meet, let's say, the values of the culture. They're bringing in people who don't have the skills and strengths that are necessary and needed to take the company to the next level. And they may not be spending time to integrate the person into the environment. So it's a process.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:22:09]:

You cannot assume that things will happen automatically. There's some intentionality that has to happen with the onboarding, with the integration, with the relationships that those executives will have with people in the company and thinking about the development of each person that you have. I think that a a a a culture that's one of development and feedback is a powerful culture. And sometimes we don't think about taking the time. What's the next step of development for that person? What do they need in order to grow and be able to add even more value to the organization? So if you neglect that and you don't give them feedback, well, you're probably not gonna get the results you want. So that's one of the big reasons that it fails. And I

Bertrand Godillot [00:23:00]:

and I know we touched a little bit on that earlier, but I'd like to have your your view on this. You know, how do leaders balance short term goals with with the need to create long term legacy?

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:23:18]:

Yeah. That's that's great because I find so often in the marketplace, people are thinking short term only, and they're not thinking about the long term. And, really, it's a dance of a both and. You have to have lenses for both short term and long term. And, ideally, if short term I'm gonna say if it if it causes you not to do something that's important in the long term, you wanna have it as a time limited aspect. We're gonna do this for a brief period of time because it's gonna gain us this value, this advantage in the business. But then we always have to think about when it's time to switch from that to go back to the long term perspective, because that's what's gonna cause you to last in the marketplace. So it's not either or.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:24:09]:

It's both and. And sometimes you have to do some short term things for a short term, and you always do those even with the lens of the long term in mind.

Tracy Borreson [00:24:20]:

Oh, okay. So I have a question about this, and it's not specifically related to, like, corporations. But so in Canada, our prime minister has recently resigned. And so there's a lot of conversations that are going on about leadership and, like, what is leadership? What do we want a leader to be? I've been doing some research on, like, how people even become, like, leaders of parties and things like that, and there's, like, I think, like, fairly edge pointed structures that are related to all of that. It's politics in particular seems like an arena where short term goals win all the time because I have a, like, predefined amount of time where I'm getting this role 3 or 4 years. And I know I have that for sure, and so I can do that in this amount of time. I'm gonna slam it all in. And and because we assume that I am not going to be involved later, that, like, I don't really invest my mental calories, as I like to call them, in the long term goals.

Tracy Borreson [00:25:23]:

And so what are some things that you see is this, like, a personality thing from a leadership point of view? Is it an intention thing? Like, what are the things that allow someone to have that skill, or is it a desire, you you could tell us, of of wanting to be able to switch between the short term and long term lenses.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:25:47]:

Well, in politics, it's particularly challenging because in the political arena, there's often a mindset that's that says, I'm only here to do this piece, that short term. And I would say if you really want to benefit a country or an environment, you have to think beyond your own administration. You have to figure out how can I build on what's already been built so the foundation that's already there, that past leaders have left, and think in the mindset of what I call, living leadership legacy? What's gonna happen after you're gone? You're you're putting some pieces in place so that the person who comes after you, they get to carry the baton in a better way because of what you've seeded in the organization and what you've built in the organization. And our challenge is we don't always reward that behavior. We don't always, put that out there as an expectation. And consequently, every so many years in the United States, it's 4 years or 8 years, You're starting over as opposed to people being in those roles of thinking that I am, like, in a relay in a sense. And so I'm passing the baton onto the next person, and what I'm giving them is something that that they will use to benefit the country long term. So I think that's a a real shift in mindset, a real shift in how you could do that, probably less practice in politics than it can be often in in company settings.

Bertrand Godillot [00:27:25]:

And and going back to companies company settings, how how can leaders ensure their values and vision are carried forward after they step down? Because we talked about growth, but, well, I'm leaving now.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:27:41]:

You know, there's a piece of creating a culture that lasts, and I think it's really important that people don't always think about. It is looking around the organization, finding the stories that are examples of, wow, that's who we really are. This is behavior that captures the essence of the culture we're building, the values that are important to us, the strengths that we have, that we wanna highlight in the marketplace. And a lot of times, leaders are assuming that people know what that behavior looks like. But you've gotta constantly scan the environment and then say, be in your, I call them, your state of the business meetings at times, and you say, here's an example. You know, John Doe over here was meeting with a client or a customer. Something went wrong. Here's what derailed me.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:28:38]:

Here's how they salvage that. Here's how they save that. This is who we are at ABC Company, and it really aligns with our values of excellence, our values of customer service, or whatever it is. And you regularly look for and share those stories. And I think so often, companies have the stories, but they don't collect them, and they don't share them.

Adam Gray [00:29:05]:

Okay. So I I've got a and I we love to play devil's advocate as you can imagine.

Tracy Borreson [00:29:11]:

And by me, he means he loves to play devil's

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:29:14]:

advocate. Alright.

Bertrand Godillot [00:29:15]:

Here we go again.

Adam Gray [00:29:19]:

How important is culture, really? I mean, it's like so you you come from a military background. Culture in the military is self evident. You said about, you know, they like uniformity. You know, they give people uniforms. They give people a very clear briefing or set of orders, there is some wiggle room maybe, but not a huge amount, it's a very clearly defined path. And in the corporate world, I think that we see a huge number of companies that play lip service to we have a really strong culture here. And you know the ones that that do have a strong culture, they're the ones that don't really shift when senior management changes. So a good example of that might be Apple.

Adam Gray [00:30:05]:

You know, they have a very, very strong vision for what it is they're there to do. Steve Jobs dies. The company continues to grow and become more successful after his death even though he was the it was his baby. Microsoft, we saw them being massively successful, then a huge slump when nobody wanted to touch Microsoft. And now they're a go to place again because they had the the the, Steve years. And, you know, you had the Bill Gates years first, fantastic. Then you had the the Steve Ballmer years, not so great. And then you have the the the the next phase, and everything seems to be going really well again.

Adam Gray [00:30:41]:

But I'm particularly thinking about, a company that's a global organization well known for delivering things the next day who shall remain nameless. And we hear about there's a culture of innovation. We hear about how it's a place everybody wants to work, but huge numbers of warehouses having massive staffing and strike issues, you know, union action against them, because the the culture from the people at the top seems to be rarely shared across the organization. And despite this, they're one of the most successful companies, successful companies in the world. So how important is culture, really? You know, Tim is chief executive of this company. If he said, actually, I don't care what you say. You're gonna do it my way or you're gonna leave. That could be a recipe for success, couldn't it? Mhmm.

Adam Gray [00:31:31]:

So so how how do we balance these things?

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:31:35]:

There are all different kinds of cultures that can work. So it's not that everyone has to have the same culture. What has to happen is that people have to know what it is. They have to know what it looks like expressed in day to day behavior as they're living in the company every day. It has to be reinforced with the stories that I mentioned that you you share those stories without the organization, and this is huge. The leaders in the organization have to model that behavior daily. They have to exemplify whatever it is that goes with how we operate around here. Now many companies, they have their company culture statement on a piece of paper, it's on the wall, and nobody is living that day to day.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:32:25]:

In fact, they're living the exact opposite. So what the organization learns is that the real culture is not what's said on the wall. It's not what's written on these papers. It's what the people do. So if you say, we really care about our people, and we want our people to be healthy and to have balanced lives. And yet, when the executive leaders are ill, they're at work with the flu. They're at work with things they should be home, you know, with and shouldn't be there. They're not they don't take sick leave.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:32:53]:

They don't they're that's a model. You're showing the organization what you really believe and what's really important to you. Now sometimes, and and as you were kind of alluding to, there can be a culture that's embraced that maybe let's say, I might not like it if I work there, that they had this culture. Yet, they think it's a winning one. I'm I'm thinking of a client right now who I've had in the past. They were working in national security, and they were doing things that were very technical and that were cutting edge, and they had a culture of innovation and of of speed to the market. They did not value balance in life. They didn't care if you went to the gym.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:33:35]:

They if you had to work 12 hours a day in order to do the job, that was okay with them. And so they would sometimes get feedback from their employees about, you know, oh, we think we should have a little more time off, or we think we should be able to go to the gym or whatever it was. And the the company basically let that fall on deaf ears because they had a constant pipeline of people who wanted to work there because of that innovation value that they had, and they just didn't see it was important to do this other part. It they weren't suffering. It wasn't hurting them at the time. There was no incentive to change the culture. And so very often, if you see an organization, they may be successful by their metrics and what they're looking at and measuring. And for right now, that may be working.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:34:25]:

And what they really have to also think about is, will the same dynamics that are out there now continue into the fur into the future? So as we come out of COVID and all this and people are thinking differently about the kind of workplace that they want to have, will that still work for you? That's the question you have to ask. And sometimes you have to be willing to shift because people may decide, well, yeah, I like innovation and I like a culture of innovation, but I also wanna be home with my 5 year old too. And so they then choose to go out the door, and you may not get that same quality of person coming in as you did in the past. So that's what companies have to think about.

Tracy Borreson [00:35:11]:

Yeah. I think one of the things that I I hear so often because I speak a lot about authenticity. And people will experience something and be like, ugh. That's not authenticity. And I'm like, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not authentic. So, like, I remember and, like, everyone has their own opinion of Elon. But when he released that, this is what is expected of Tesla employees, and we celebrate people who sleep at the office and all of these things. Like, I mean, if that's what's going to be expected, if that's what's going to be rewarded, very minimally, I would expect you to be transparent about it.

Tracy Borreson [00:35:50]:

So I might not like that. I might not choose that. But if a company is being transparent and for whatever reason, they think that's what contributes to their success based on how they define success, then I think that that's the, like, critical component is that you can I've said this for years for because I've been in a lot of businesses that write their values on their wall and then operate under completely different values. And I'm like, just have the guts to tell people what you're really doing. So don't say you care about people. If I go to the effort to have written into my contract that my in office hours are 9 to 4 so I can take my son to day care and pick my son up from day care while the day care is open, and you are constant and you sign my contract and then also constantly book meetings for me at 4 o'clock, That I have done my due diligence in helping you to see what cares about people looks like for me. You don't and, like, I don't know. I I often think all values are like it's not like, I mean, this or this.

Tracy Borreson [00:36:56]:

They're all on a scale. Right? And different people interpret them in different ways. Doctor Karen, you mentioned at the beginning of the show, like, it's about a conversation. I might think cares about people means one thing. Bertram might think cares about people means another thing. If we don't talk about what that means, we have no idea if we're even living the same values. But they're just like, let let's be honest. And someone might be honest and share something that you don't like, but that's an opportunity for alignment that you wouldn't have if they hadn't shared it otherwise.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:37:27]:

I'm glad you used that word alignment. I was thinking of the same thing. I was thinking, yes. I mean, when you're honest and you're talking about here's who we are, here's who we're looking for, here's what to expect here, you're gonna attract the person who likes that, who wants that, or who doesn't mind it at least, as opposed to always being in a fight with someone about they're trying to add pieces that you really don't want is not who you are, and it's a waste of time. You might as well say that up front. And there are people out there who really don't mind sleeping in the office, so to speak. They love that. They know they're gonna be on the cutting edge of something the next day, and that's their thing.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:38:08]:

We'll attract those people. And then you you create alignment in the organization because of sharing the story, sharing the examples, talking about what it looks like, talking about what it doesn't look like and what you don't expect and don't want and don't reward. You also have to mention that too. And the people then who are aligned, they are proud of that organization because of what those values are that also track what the values they have. And so when you can look around and say, I've got people who they're they're all in on this. They're double down on it. They're proud of this organization. They get it.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:38:45]:

They understand it. They live it every day. I could just walk around and and and write down stories of people living it out. That's when you know your culture is powerful, and it's it's operating and working for you.

Tracy Borreson [00:38:57]:

Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:38:58]:

What you said, Tracy, was really interesting about the fact that you put these, like Tesla, you put the the the values and the expectation on the outside, and you say to people, that's what we are. If you don't like it, don't join. And, actually, this is not about everybody liking this. This is about being transparent, isn't it? And this is about saying, here's what we stand for. If you want to be part of this, you know, we're changing the world. You know, Tesla are changing the world. Whether you like Elon Musk or hate him, you know, they are changing the world and they are cutting edge and they are doing things that no other organization on the planet is doing. And I guess that that comes at a price, doesn't it? And sometimes that price may be something that I find very unpleasant or distasteful.

Tracy Borreson [00:39:41]:

Or too high for you. Like, it makes me think I often think about the similarities between, like, performance in business organizations and performance in athletic teams. Because when we were city champions for our basketball team, we were city champions because we could outrun every other team. We up we ran every day. We ran faster than everybody else, and we ran farther than everybody else. And that was how we won. And you had to opt in to do that. Like, if if there were people who got cut from the team because they wouldn't do the running.

Tracy Borreson [00:40:15]:

Right? And and this was, like, our team way of success. Is it the only team way of success? No. But this is our chosen team way of success. And if you're not going to invest in it, you're not bad. You're not wrong. I'm not right. But it is about, like, this is our chosen way of doing it. And if you don't wanna do it, then that's go find another team.

Tim Hughes [00:40:35]:

So so, Karen, culture is a, a pool table and a table tennis table. Isn't it?

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:40:42]:

It's a what?

Tim Hughes [00:40:43]:

A pool table and a table tennis table.

Tracy Borreson [00:40:46]:

It's beer Fridays. Right? Beer Fridays.

Tim Hughes [00:40:49]:

So so, you know, for for people out there that may be actually doing putting together a start up, they may be technical, and they actually don't know how to create a culture, what they know about the technicalities. And I've worked for an organization back in the .comboom where they thought the culture was basically a pool table and a table tables table tennis table, and they didn't know how to create a culture. And there was always a debate about should it be this or should it be this or should it be this? And then, oh, next week we're doing this. And and and so what if you're starting a business, what is it that you should do and what should you be thinking about in terms of creating a culture?

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:41:32]:

And let me just get some clarification first. When you were talking about a pool table and table tennis, say a little bit more about that so I understand how you're viewing those items.

Tim Hughes [00:41:45]:

Well, there was a there was an expectation that that those items would be put into the organization, and that would create a culture.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:41:54]:

Oh, you mean actually having a pool table there and oh, you meant that quite literally. Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:42:01]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Literally. Doctor Karen, you might be shocked at the number of tech companies who believe that, like, that's what creates culture.

Tim Hughes [00:42:11]:

Yeah. Yeah. In in tech in tech, culture is created by a pool table and a table tennis table.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:42:15]:

Okay. It's not Okay.

Tracy Borreson [00:42:17]:

Or it might be foosball. It might be foosball.

Tim Hughes [00:42:20]:

I don't I don't know what that is, but,

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:42:24]:

that's

Tracy Borreson [00:42:24]:

soccer game where you, like, spin the guys

Tim Hughes [00:42:26]:

Oh, I would

Tracy Borreson [00:42:28]:

say football. Football. Yeah. We call it foosball.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:42:31]:

Oh, I'm glad I asked for clarification because I did not know you were speaking quite literally. So okay. Wonderful. Here's the question. Here's the question that has to be asked in the organization. And the and the answer may be different depending on the organization and the people. If I bring in a pool table, foosball, or whatever it is, you have to be able to answer, how does that facilitate achieving the vision and mission of the organization? And it might. I'm not gonna suggest that maybe it isn't, but you have to be able to articulate that and see it and to be able to also demonstrate if those items are removed.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:43:13]:

There's less productivity in some kind of way, or there's less creativity in terms of people thinking about things. Because there are organizations that are very creative and innovative, and they have little toys around or whatever that do facilitate the way people think and the way that they interact with others, bringing people together that might otherwise stay isolated in their office and therefore miss an opportunity to isolated in their office and therefore miss an opportunity to really, co create, collaborate with someone else, and come up with something new. So it you just have to be able to articulate how it helps and also notice how it may hinder, because sometimes these things we think help are really a hindrance. So it can't just be, I'm flying by the seat of my pants. I do collect a little information, do some, you know, find some data that supports that you really do benefit from having, pool table in the office, and you might.

Adam Gray [00:44:12]:

Well, you you you say about that. You said about, senior leaders modeling behavior. I worked at an agency that didn't have a pool table. It had a full size snooker table, so 12 feet long billiards table. And, and the the chief executive of the company had his desk in the same room as the billiards table. And he said because it was an agency. You can all come and play on this as often as you want. The idea or the the the the top level thing was, it's a it's a team building thing.

Adam Gray [00:44:41]:

You know? So we maybe would book a a restaurant or we would book an activity, paintballing or whatever it may be. We'll go and do do that as a team. But instead of that, we can do it in the office and people can come and do it. But what would happen is that somebody would go to play snooker, and then he would and he would watch them. And, you know, 5 minutes of the chief chief executive watching you play snooker, you decided, actually, I've got some emails to send, and you went back to

Tim Hughes [00:45:11]:

your but

Bertrand Godillot [00:45:13]:

but I think that's that's

Adam Gray [00:45:14]:

the point, isn't it? You know, people that work within an organization are like your children. You know? So your children do what you do, not what you tell them to do. So if you smoke and you say to them, don't smoke, they smoke because they say, okay. You smoke, so I'll smoke. You do whatever. You shout, so I'll shout. You swear, so I'll swear. And, and I think that the same thing happens within organizations.

Tim Hughes [00:45:40]:

You know,

Adam Gray [00:45:40]:

the best organizations I've worked with Mhmm. Have been organizations where the leaders have absolutely been the the inspiration for people within the organization.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:45:54]:

Absolutely. And see, you know, what as I hear the story about that, snooker table in the CEO's office, what strikes me is that possibly it was in the wrong location. And I say it that way because, you know, the the CEO's got lots of stuff to do, and having people come in and play at times that may not be convenient may be an issue. And so what if it was in a different area, a different space? Everyone knew that you could go there. And let's say you were playing a game with someone. Just like on a golf course, you're talking business, and you're talking about ideas and innovation and what's next. You may get your next best thought because you were at that table playing with a teammate. And so maybe the idea itself wasn't a problem, but perhaps the location was a challenge.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:46:45]:

You know? Absolutely.

Tracy Borreson [00:46:48]:

Well and I think, like, one of the things that comes up for me in this is that, like, doctor Karen, you mentioned collecting data. Right? Like, how do the let's I'm I'm a big fan of first party data, which is if the employees are experiencing it, ask the employees. Are you experiencing this? We tried this because we thought that this snooker table was going to ignite ideas. What's your experience of the snooker table? Is it igniting ideas? Is it making you feel pressure? It wasn't meant to feel pressure. Like, maybe we can move it. Maybe we can do something else. Because as I mentioned, like, beer Fridays, I don't know if this is popular. I think it is also popular in tech.

Tracy Borreson [00:47:29]:

But, like, I I'm the person who has written into my contract that these are my hours and all these things in order to do my cares about people. And now I'm being forced on Fridays to hang out virtually with my team between 4 and 5 PM. I'm not allowed to work. I'm not allowed to hang up with my family. I have to virtually hang out with the team. The the it my experience as an employee is not that it's a demonstration of cares about people. I'm not actually building relationships with my teammates. I would like to build relationships with my teammates.

Tracy Borreson [00:48:06]:

I don't think this is delivering on it. Kind of coming back to that opening up the conversation. Right? If we really want our actions to live the values, then I think we can ask those questions. Are my is what I'm doing? So is our way of being matching our values. And if it's not from your perspective, then I'd kinda like to know about it.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:48:31]:

Yeah. There's that question, and there's also the question based on what you just said. Let's say for some reason, it is consistent with the company's values, what they're doing. However, the other question is, to what extent is it gaining the desired result or impact? Because if they really wanted it to be, people willing to be there, wanting to be there, engaging with their teammates, if you're feeling like this is forced, you know, playtime and and it's not really convenient and it's and you'd rather be doing something else, there may be another way to get to the objective of having the team communication and the team interaction. And so that's when that interaction effect and the communication in the organization is huge because the leaders don't necessarily see the downstream impact. They don't necessarily see what it's costing someone and the resentment that might even build because of what they're paying in cost when it could be done in a totally different way. You get this best result, better results doing something different.

Tracy Borreson [00:49:43]:

Yeah.

Bertrand Godillot [00:49:46]:

So, Karen, for the leaders who are engaged into a succession plan, and they want to understand whether this is progressing accordingly, what are the warning signs that they should be aware of That this is not going this is this is failing, actually.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:50:09]:

Okay. And so when you say a succession plan, say a little bit more about what you mean by that.

Bertrand Godillot [00:50:15]:

Well, I mean, instoring the culture, making sure that there will be a long lasting culture and a legacy in place.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:50:22]:

Oh, yeah. Okay. So if they're trying to do that and there's and they're obviously looking at something that's telling them it's not happening or it's not working. So you have to look at several things. Is it not working because we have brought in the wrong people? Is it not working because we're not developing those people? Is it not working because we're not showing the, pictures of it, the stories, the exemplars of what we're looking for? Is it not working because we are expecting people to automatically get it? And I think, you know, Tracy used that earlier that everybody's definition of the same thing is not the same. You know? It's a very intentional process. So you have to look at those details to see where the the shortfalls may be, and they may be in more than one place why it's not working. The other thing I would add to this, Berton, is that there are some things that organizations often do that get in the way.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:51:31]:

So let me mention a couple of those. And one of those is focusing on what's wrong with this big group. So they're not really looking for the success story from what people are doing right. They're looking around for catching everybody doing something wrong or that's problematic. And because they're focusing on that, they end up getting more of what's wrong rather than more of what's right. And and often, you know, leaders and executives are, you know, trained to look in detail at some things and find the flaw, find the problem. And if you really wanna build a successful culture, you have to find what's working, what's right, and reinforce that. So that's one of the things that derails building the kind of culture that lasts.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:52:20]:

It's that kind of emphasis on what's wrong, and akin to it is what I call beating the sheep. Now as a leader, your job is to feed the sheep, not to beat the sheep. And if you beat the sheep, going to back to my psychology background, when you when you do punishment, you get that sheep to freeze. It stops what it's doing. It doesn't have energy anymore because it doesn't want the beating. It's like, you know, I'm paralyzed now. Whereas if you're feeding the sheep, you're guiding and leading the sheep in the in in the right direction. And how that sheep feels secure, that that they that sheep feels that they can trust you, so to speak.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:53:04]:

You're you're not leading them off a cliff or to a place that's barren and doesn't have any food or where there's no water. So I think there's there's room for leaders to think in that way that we are, number 1, not assuming they know. So we're gonna share. We're gonna talk about it, and we're gonna have some accountability because I'm gonna give feedback. I'm gonna reinforce the culture, and we're gonna celebrate the culture. So you can talk up if you're not celebrating it, you're not reinforcing it, you're not doing any of the and you're beating the sheep. That's those are all key ways to derail the process.

Bertrand Godillot [00:53:41]:

Doctor Karen, this has been great.

Tim Hughes [00:53:45]:

Thank you, Karen. That's an excellent,

Bertrand Godillot [00:53:47]:

great discussion. Where where can people, learn more, and how can they get in touch with you?

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:53:53]:

Yes. Well, people can go to my website, which is transleadership.com. They can also reach me at karen@transleadership.com. And, also, I would say that I have a podcast called The Voice of Leadership. And this year, we were just starting what I call the Fab 500 series. We had 500 episodes in 2024, and we are airing some of the best of the best right now. And so go to podcast channels for voice of leadership. You can also find the podcast on YouTube under Dr. Karen Wilson Starks if you wanna see it.

Dr. Karen Wilson-Starks [00:54:33]:

And this week, we were featuring Brian Smith, who was the founder of UGG Boot. And he talks a lot about his entrepreneurial journey and what he learned, how he overcame so many obstacles, and was able to sell the company profitably on the back end. So those are just some ways that people can be in touch if if they want.

Bertrand Godillot [00:54:56]:

Excellent. But if you have something to say, we want to hear from you. So you can scan the QR code on screen and visit us at digital download. Live and fill out the the old guest application form. We now have a newsletter. Please don't miss an episode. Get your highlights beyond the show insights and reminders of upcoming episodes.

Tracy Borreson [00:55:26]:

We have a bunch of QR codes, folks.

Bertrand Godillot [00:55:29]:

Or visit us at digital download. Live/newsletter. On behalf of the panelists, to our guest, doctor Karen, and to our audience, Thank you all, and see you next time.

Adam Gray [00:55:43]:

Thank you.

Tim Hughes [00:55:43]:

Thanks, everybody. Bye bye. Bye.

Bertrand Godillot [00:55:45]:

Thank you. Bye bye.

#Leadership #ChangeManagement #SuccessionPlanning #SocialSelling #DigitalSelling #SocialEnablemenet #LinkedInLive #Podcast