This week on The Digital Download, we welcome Gregory Garrison, a seasoned leader, author, lecturer, and speaker with 35 years of experience as a CTO/CIO and director of three innovation labs. Greg specializes in digital transformation, IT strategy, and change management, and has held senior leadership roles at Accenture, TUI Group, PwC, AOL Europe, Vodafone, Reuters, and American Express. He is the author of two books on leadership, focused on developing leadership identity and style, and creating workplaces that nurture spirit, integrity, trust, authenticity, confidence, passion and enthusiasm.

In this episode, we'll explore effective leadership strategies for today’s dynamic business environment. We will discuss how to build high-performing teams, foster innovation, and navigate the complexities of modern leadership.

Join us as we discuss questions like:

• How do you differentiate between leadership and management, and when is each most critical?

• What are the essential strategies for building and maintaining high-performing teams?

• How can leaders effectively foster innovation and manage the associated risks?

• What are the key considerations for leading remote and hybrid teams in the modern workplace?

• How can leaders create a workplace culture that encourages authenticity, trust, and high performance?

With his extensive experience and insights, Grégory Garrison offers valuable perspectives on developing leadership skills, driving innovation, and creating successful teams. His books, "Lead! - Book 1 - The Comprehensive Study Guide for Exceptional Leaders" and "Lead! - Book 2 - A Consummate Field Guide for Exceptional Leaders" provide a comprehensive toolkit of strategies, techniques, and tools essential for putting your unique leadership style into action.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• Gregory Garrison, leader, author, lecturer and speaker, gregonleadership.com. Greg's latest books are Lead 1 - Finding your leadership Identity and Lead 2 - Developing your leadership style.

This week's Host was -

• Bertrand Godillot, Founder and Managing Partner of Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of DLA Ignite,

Transcript of The Digital Download 2025-03-21

Bertrand Godillot [00:00:08]:

Good afternoon, good morning, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to a new edition of The Digital Download, the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live, now globally syndicated on TuneIn Radio through IBGR, the world's number one business talk, news, and strategy radio network. Today, we'll explore effective leadership strategies for today's dynamic business environment. We will discuss how to build high performing teams, foster innovation, and navigate the complexities of modern leadership, with our special guest, Gregory Garrison. As a seasoned leader, author, lecturer, and speaker with thirty five years experience as CTO, CIO, and director of three innovation labs, Greg specializes in digital transformation, IT strategy, and change management. But before we bring Gregory on, let's go around the set and introduce everyone. Actually, it's going to be the three of us today.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:13]:

So while we're doing that, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend, ping them, and have them join us? We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience, and audience participation is highly encouraged. So, Tim, do you wanna kick us off?

Tim Hughes [00:01:31]:

Thank you, Bertrand. Welcome, everybody, and thank you for tuning in. My name is Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO and cofounder of DLA Ignite, and I'm famous for, writing the book, social selling techniques to influence buyers and change makers. I'm gonna do Greg's advert for him before he comes on. Greg has written not one, but two really great books, called lead, finding your leadership identity and developing your leadership style, which is the the second part. And, the story is is he wrote the whole thing, and it was too big to put out as one book, so they split it into two. But, and you can get get these at good book shops or or on Amazon.

Tim Hughes [00:02:14]:

I'm really pleased and honored to have, Greg on. So thank you very much.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:21]:

So am I myself, Bertrand Godillot. I am the founder and managing partner of Odysseus and Co, a very proud DLA Ignite partner. So as I said this week, on the digital download, we'll speak with Gregory Garrison. His extensive experience and insights offers valuable perspectives and developing leadership on developing leadership skills, driving innovation, and creating successful teams. Let's bring him on. Oops.

Tim Hughes [00:02:53]:

Hi, Greg.

Gregogry Garrison [00:02:56]:

Hi. Good morning, gentlemen. How are you doing?

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:58]:

Very well. Thanks.

Tim Hughes [00:02:58]:

Good morning.

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:00]:

Great. Good good morning for you, and welcome. Greg, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about, you, your background, and how you, and what led you to where you are today.

Gregogry Garrison [00:03:17]:

Okay. Well, thanks very much both of you for the opportunity to, Tim, to see you again and also to be here, Brook turned on on your, podcast today. And really appreciate the fact that, we have the opportunity to talk about leadership, particularly in these challenging times. My background, really is, quite varied and, it's been an an interesting ride thus far. I've had the opportunity to work internationally for forty years. Worked, of course, in America, then I, went to Asia, Hong Kong, Singapore a couple of times, The UK, and Spain. And I mentioned that because this has, been part of the journey for me working with teams. Not only working with different cultures, but also working in different organizations.

Gregogry Garrison [00:04:08]:

I've worked in many different industries, both as a line manager and as a consultant. And I think those have really assisted me in my leadership journey, and particularly in in my growth as a in continuing education and continuing development. So as a, as a strategy consultant, as a line manager, CIO, CTO, and, operations and development manager, really, I think I've worked the continuum of leadership all the way from strategy down to, keeping the lights on. And that's what I want to share with you today.

Bertrand Godillot [00:04:49]:

Excellent. Well, thank you very much. So, Greg, the title of this show, of this panel discussion, is stop managing and start leading. Tell us more. Why do you say that?

Gregogry Garrison [00:05:05]:

Well, that was a that's an interesting topic for us today, and, because it real we are really in the throes of two different major transformations. And this is going to impact all of us in leadership and management dramatically, and and has been, for the last five years. The first dramatic change has been, of course, as we all experienced, the the COVID incident, as well as the the lockdowns. And what that has done to business, as we all experienced dramatically was the fact that, we moved from being on premise to being remote working working from home and so on. And what that really did was that disrupted the, certainly the leadership, but primarily the the management function within organizations. One moment we're managing by walking around, we're nurturing and, and, motivating, developing our staff. The next moment, you know, we're we're remote. So we moved from this synchronous situation to an asynchronous situation.

Gregogry Garrison [00:06:19]:

And what that did is we all know, that really collapsed our systems. It disrupted our operations, and particularly it, it threw into this asynchronous mode many of the business processes. And that has been we've dealt with many of the business processes, but we haven't dealt with many of the management based activities that occurred, when we move from this synchronous to this asynchronous behaviors. The next thing that is happening to us is, of course, the the AI revolution. The AI AI revolution is going to be, equally or more disruptive, for management and leadership. And the reason I mentioned that is is that if we look at leadership leadership and management, sometimes people say this is flip side to the same coin. Well, that is true. However, I also view this as a continuum.

Gregogry Garrison [00:07:21]:

If we look at strategy, and we look at visioning, and then organizational development, and, developing of teams, and motivating and nurturing teams, then on to people management, operations, and controls, and keeping the lights on. That continuum from leadership to management, really is going to be dramatically impacted by the fact that in this asynchronous, working from home and, hybrid working, many of the functions that we're currently performing are going to have to be conducted and performed remotely. Now, as as we look at this over the next five to ten years, what I'm convinced is going to happen is most of, if not all of the management activities are really going to be disintermediated by AI. And so the control functions, the project management functions, the, all of the work assignment discussions and, performance, discussions and and appraisals and so on. Many of these things are going to be taken over by AI. Consequently, I would argue, and the reason I say stop managing and start leading is that I believe that the existing management functions that, will be disintermediated by AI leave us primarily with the people management activities. And those people management activities aren't going to need to be enhanced. And as they are enhanced, they're gonna move much more toward the leadership function.

Gregogry Garrison [00:09:07]:

So I almost see the what's gonna happen in ten years. And if I was talking to, a young person under under 40 five or 50, I would advise them management is really going to be disintermediated, and those people management functions that exist currently within the management role are gonna move into the leadership area. So management, really, in a decade disappears, and leadership becomes ever more important.

Tim Hughes [00:09:37]:

Do you know, Greg, I I I agree with you. And I was actually at I was at Salesforce, on Wednesday, and Salesforce have created a a, in effect, what you're saying, which is that, they've got if if people wanna look at it, it's the the, they've got this, AI agent. So what you can do is you can go into the CRM, and you say, I'm going to a meeting next week. I'm gonna need to negotiate. Can you help me with my negotiation skills? And what happens is this agent will basically ask you questions and then and then assess you in terms of the answers and coach you. So that's that's already available. The thing is is that when it does that, it sends a note to your line manager saying that you've actually done this. So so the I was talking to both the the line manager and the the one of the teams that we've, coached there.

Tim Hughes [00:10:33]:

And she said, I get this note saying you need to talk to Murray about, at and so the typical coaching that somebody would have got from a manager will be has or is being taken place by the the the AI. But the leader is aware of it, is then having a different discussion because it's not about I don't have to sit there and say, let's role play the, the, meeting that you're gonna have. It can be more it can be more from a leadership perspective. So, yes. And it and it's this is not this is not future. This is happening now.

Gregogry Garrison [00:11:09]:

Yeah. And I I think the you know, when we look at the, tactical or administrative sorts of functions of of management, Those are naturals, particularly in the fact that we're now in this, remote working or hybrid working environment. And so the the problem, again, to elaborate on this, is the synchronous versus asynchronous behavior. And the manager is not in a position any longer to do that day to day management. But, however, the AI agent is always on ubiquitous twenty four seven, knows you very well, and is constantly available as an assistant. And consequently, it will do an even better job at the administrative and tactical functions, than any manager could do even on premise. Now one of the other interesting things that happens then though in that environment, in that, you know, explosive dynamic hypergrowth environment, is there are significant changes for leadership as well. And I've been working a lot.

Gregogry Garrison [00:12:23]:

I'm I'm writing a novel, and I'm working a lot with, with my assistant, AI, and doing the work of, what would have been about five other research assistants and, now. But

Bertrand Godillot [00:12:37]:

the

Gregogry Garrison [00:12:37]:

thing is is that, in this dynamic world, an increasing function, I think beyond the typical leadership functions, are what I'm calling steering the ship. Because it's no longer about thinking of a vision and step setting a strategic plan and creating an organizational structure and, you know, you know, all of these are important motivating teams. But in addition to that, things are moving so fast. You need to be in the moment, on top of things, grabbing the tiller or the wheel, and steering the ship, because it is moving too fast, to to actually just sit back and set a strategic plan, hand over a series of project plans and work assignments, expect people to deliver that and then come back and find out that, things have moved on. So I think this, the impact on is disintermediation of management, but also, significant enabling, and acceleration of the requirement for leadership.

Bertrand Godillot [00:13:47]:

Right. So so we we talked about, you know, management and leadership be be being two sides of the same coin. And as you and and and as you you you envision envisage it a continuum. I also talked about the fact that we, we we've moved from synchronous to asynchronous. What are the key considerations of of for leading, remote hybrid teams in the modern workspace from your perspective, Greg?

Gregogry Garrison [00:14:21]:

Well, as always in leadership, I think the important thing is, the leader needs to to set a compelling vision. And that vision has got should be a stretch goal, a stretch vision, something that is is ideally, a game changer to move the organization forward. When you do that, you need to make sure that you take that vision and you translate that into a compelling purpose. And what you need to try and do is is try and, identify a purpose that either aligns with the team and the individual's, altruistic desires or interests or career development activities and so on. So start with your vision, then create a compelling purpose that align the the staff members, goals and objectives. Then be very clear about the deliverables. And it's not just about, in particularly in the remote environment. It's not just about, what are the tasks that needed to be need to be carried out.

Gregogry Garrison [00:15:31]:

You need to empower the teams. And this is critically important in remote and and the hybrid environment. Empower them to take charge because you can't be, you know, overseeing them all the time. And in empowering them to take charge, then, making sure that they have the tools, the support tools, and the activities. What you're really looking for outcomes rather than deliverance of individual tasks along the way. Next thing is create a safe space for them. Make make sure that they you know, a safe base. Make sure that they are confident and comfortable, and particularly around innovation and trying and delivering new things.

Gregogry Garrison [00:16:18]:

And if they have that safe base and that safe place, then they will be more they'll create create a sense of trust and collaboration. And so this and then and then constant communication, constant collaboration, constant, keeping them in the loop about what's happening in the wider organization.

Tim Hughes [00:16:42]:

And, Greg, can you give us an example of that? Well When you worked at TUI Yeah. When you worked at TUI, what did you what did you say to your team?

Gregogry Garrison [00:16:58]:

Well, two things, and, yes, back to the purpose, and we we talked about this once before. Back to the purposes, you need to have, some everyone wants to be part of something bigger than themselves. Everybody wants to be part of something that has value. And it sounds simple, but it was very powerful. I used to tell, in interviews and in onboarding, I used to say to people, everything we do, whether you're writing a piece of code, whether you are debugging a line of code, whether you're doing Excel spreadsheet, creating your presentation, Everything you are doing is about creating a value chain that ends up with a little family with a young child, dog playing on a beach somewhere in, you know, in my work, for example. And this vision of the fact that, these weren't just tactical activities. It wasn't just a line of code. It wasn't just an Excel spreadsheet.

Gregogry Garrison [00:17:59]:

But we were creating something that, you know, had true value to our customers. That's one thing. So I think, creating a vision with a purpose is very important. The other thing is I have teams and, IT teams in 53 countries. And small teams in some of these places, but nevertheless, it was a very distributed environment. And all of these people needed to feel like they were part of a larger organization. They were part of a cohesive team that had a vision, that had a culture, that had a purpose. And so the constant communication was critical in whether someone was in the Dominican Republic or whether they were in Mauritius.

Gregogry Garrison [00:18:46]:

You had to make sure that these people felt not disenfranchised and not distant, but part of a living, breathing dynamic organization. And so that's where, you know, regular communications, simple communications. And as we know, something that may seem minor to ourselves as a leader can be very important to them. Another thing I used to do, I used to walk into the office. We had about I suppose about 60 or 70 people in the office. And I would go the long way around, and I would walk through all of the teams and make eye contact with virtually everybody as I walked in. And it was a small thing, but then then I would say good morning to to each of the groups. And somehow the small little activity of engaging with them was critically important.

Gregogry Garrison [00:19:38]:

And that's the same as if when you're in meeting making, you know, smiling at someone, or nodding, or a quick, hey, great idea, or, you know, this this these small little activities, small little comments may seem trivial to you, but these are really important to reinforce and encourage, the staff and give them, you know, a purpose and hope and, you know, expectations of, a collaborative environment where they are part of the team.

Bertrand Godillot [00:20:12]:

We have a we have a a comment from the from the from the audience in the high flow. The ships today are bigger and move faster. It takes more than one person to set a plan, execute, and manage all the micro adjustments that happen as the world changes. I think leaders today must have must share steering the ship. The way they can do this is through leadership because I I have the complete text here. Any comments on that, Greg?

Gregogry Garrison [00:20:47]:

Well, what you're talking about there is is empowerment, and I think that's exactly right. I think the leader I I know the leader needs to set the vision. You need a single version of the truth. You need, you know, a a a single direction. But as we know, using the the metaphor, the analogy of of sailing, you know, you've got to, move with the wind and the waves and, and consequently, you know, be dynamic and adaptive as as you go along. And the thing is, is that that's the manager in their ivory ivory tower, wherever it is, even if it's small a small office, they're not in touch with all of the activities, in, you know, in all of the departments in all the countries, around the globe. Consequently, exactly right. You've got to empower your teams, particularly in the remote and the and the hybrid environment.

Gregogry Garrison [00:21:45]:

You can empower your teams, to one, have the confidence that they can help steer, two, have the tools that they need, and three, that they know that they are empowered and enabled to do so. So, I recall one time, it was an interesting example. I had a a large team and I was doing a, a one of these outward bound type team development exercises. And we were building rafts and building towers, and I was in and I had hired a, an external consultant to run this. And so everything was going very well. The first day, it was terrific. The second day would come along, and, all of a sudden, the consultant pulls me out of the organization. And he said, just just sit let's hear sit here and observe.

Gregogry Garrison [00:22:40]:

And all of a sudden, the the teams began to flounder, and they began to fail in in the activities. And I said, well, I better get back in and help steer the ship. And he said, no. He says, that's the problem. You have created a dependency on your leadership style. He said, you're not going to retire here. You know, you've got to develop these people, empower them, enable them, encourage them, and ensure that they are capable of making decisions and, building the raft and building the tower themselves. So this was a, an eye opener for me.

Gregogry Garrison [00:23:17]:

And when I got back to the office, then, I appointed, four new directors within the organization. And, and he says, you know, you have to let the people, grow. You have to let the people develop. You've got to let the people fail, and you've got to take the risk. Because all of the sudden, just as the, as the observers said, you know, the leader stops the vision, but, you may you may have many ships afloat at the same time and consequently that empowerment and team development. And that's that's another thing that, is critically important in the remote environment is in addition to the the vision and the purpose is making the people feel as if they are growing and they are developing. And that's one of the, the true motivators for people, not just, delivery of the objectives, but the fact that they are self actualizing, they're growing and developing as well. And then as a result, you know, the tide raises all ships and everybody develops and everybody grows.

Bertrand Godillot [00:24:30]:

I'd like to come back to the start of our discussion, Greg, where you said, basically, we're experiencing the impact, the massive impact, the dramatic impact, as you as you called it, of two major changes. And I'd like to, to to understand, what what are the effective strategies to drive change for for leaders and and ensure a smooth transition if if it's possible.

Gregogry Garrison [00:25:00]:

Well, I I think, again, that's part of the leader's responsibility is to do the horizon scanning, to watch the market, to be involved in the industry forums, to understand where things are moving. And when I used to run the innovation labs and we were, you know, we were working as futurists and trying to understand where things were going. And and I remember that, particularly when when I was at AOL, and we were developing mobiles in the early days. We were looking three, four, five generations. Well, not that far, but we were looking two or three generations of mobile phones out and understanding, what was the future evolution. And a very interesting story, in the early days, and this was back in the WAP phones, five gs and so on. Some of you guys will remember this. I went in at one point and to the board and said to the board, we need this investment.

Gregogry Garrison [00:26:04]:

We need these teams to develop, the WAP phone. And so I put forward multimillion dollar investment and, which was approved. And then I said, okay, for the second part of the presentation, I'd like to request that we do not launch this product. And this went wind, and I said, never. And so what are you talking about? We just approved this project to develop this this multimillion dollar investment, and now you're saying we're never going to launch this? I said, no, we're not. Because here are the usability tests that show that this experience is unacceptable, that this is going to cannibalize our brand. This is going to hurt us more than it's gonna help us. But we need to be on the journey.

Gregogry Garrison [00:26:48]:

We need to develop the the content, survey. We need to develop the legal. We need to develop the devices. We need to develop the relationships. And because then the next generation, three g, will be coming right on the back of that. And so amazingly, they approved this, and what we did was we developed this initial version. And this initial version was the platform we needed to launch the next version. And everyone else is sitting around waiting until the next version.

Gregogry Garrison [00:27:19]:

So we're we're there on day one when the new version is is ready, when we launch rather than sitting back and waiting for, you know, things to, to catch up with themselves. Another thing, as I said, we need to we need to be participating as a global player in all of these industry forums, so that we can help develop the standards rather than have to run to catch up to comply with the standards. So this is about visioning. And this is about, making sure that, that your role is on the right trajectory, considering all the different market, customer, internal activities, and competition. Now once you've got that, then you've got the teams that say, okay, yes, this is this is the target, this is the direction. And and but everyone else then needs to help bring us along to accomplish that journey.

Tim Hughes [00:28:29]:

Greg, there are many things I like about your books. One of the things is that you're very honest about, the, some of the presentations that you give. There's a there's a lot of case studies in there. You you you're very honest about some of the presentations you give, which is, I think, is is is refreshing, because it's refreshing in terms of the that not all presentations you give to boards go go well. Oh, I

Gregogry Garrison [00:28:58]:

know where

Tim Hughes [00:28:59]:

you're from.

Bertrand Godillot [00:28:59]:

I mean,

Tim Hughes [00:29:03]:

but the thing is is that you at least in the book, you're very honest about it. And and, you know, I think that not not all of us have had experience of presenting to boards. And, and actually you sharing that experience, I think, is a it and not just great case studies, but great experience and learning for people.

Gregogry Garrison [00:29:25]:

Yeah. Would you like to share a While

Tim Hughes [00:29:26]:

I'm on the subject, would you like to share a story about when you presented to a board and it didn't go very well?

Gregogry Garrison [00:29:33]:

Well, in the, it went very well up to a moment. And, so what we were doing, we were, this is in the old days of investment bank trading systems. They're the early days of the explosion of derivative products. And and also this was in the the the middle of the late nineties where the Internet was just taking over. And so this organization had the, almost the monopoly, the dominant role in investment bank trading. But what what had happened was is that the the systems were proliferating. The there was new markets coming on board every day, and so we needed a new generation of products. One day I was flying back from, from Hong Kong, and I was sitting up, in the upper upper deck of a seven forty seven watching the pilots.

Gregogry Garrison [00:30:24]:

And, look at their looking at their displays, and I got this idea that the investment bank trading, environment was a very dynamic environment. And but these these tools and controls were highly optimized for their purposes. So this gave me the idea that we should model our investment bank trading systems. First of all, to be consistent, easy to use, but to be optimized for their environment, and also to be Internet based. So I came into the office one day, and I said, everybody, you know, 80 people, tools down. We are now going to everything we do from this moment forward is going to be Internet based. And they all rallied around this model, and we developed a, a prototype, high performance prototype of the new investment bank trading system on the Internet, which nobody had at the time. So I walk into the board for investment in this and show them the show them the prototype, and dramatically explain that this is the way forward, and we need an investment in this area, and everybody is excited.

Gregogry Garrison [00:31:34]:

And then I got carried away, and I said, this is what's gonna happen. And this is the way we're going to kill the competition. We're gonna kill Knight Ridder. We're gonna kill Bloomberg. We're gonna, you know, this is the way forward. And not only that, we're gonna kill the old Reuters. Sorry. I shouldn't have mentioned the name of the company.

Gregogry Garrison [00:31:56]:

They were the dominant player.

Tim Hughes [00:31:57]:

Where did you say Al? Greg, do you want?

Gregogry Garrison [00:32:00]:

Thank you very much. And, and then all of a sudden, this booming voice from the back of the of the boardroom table says, kill the old Reuters. What are you talking about? We are the dominant player in the marketplace. You know? And what I had neglected to do, and it's an important learning point, if you look at transformational change, is you've got to ensure that you bring the people, and the leadership, and the collaborators along with you on the journey. So I was summarily packed up and dismissed from the boardroom. And but it was a it was a critical learning point for me is, you know, it's not just about having a great idea. It's not just about building and prototyping is a great idea. You've got to bring the team along with you on the journey.

Gregogry Garrison [00:32:51]:

And that was what I had neglected to do. And that was a major failure on my part. And so in the book, I talk about, Kotter and Elizabeth Moskantor and different people who are experts in the field of business transformation. And one of the key things is making sure that you, three sixty degrees, bring everybody along on the journey with you.

Bertrand Godillot [00:33:16]:

We have a comment from the audience since it's Tony saying, I find this very interesting. Be looking around the screen, there's a lot of gray hairs. By the way, not all of us have gray hairs, Tony. But the question is, do Gen z see the sense of what Greg is talking about is explaining, basically? That's a that's a fair question.

Gregogry Garrison [00:33:42]:

Well, it's a good question for Gen z's, but, one of the interesting things for me is to, watch my sons. Obviously, I have managed, dozens, if not hundreds of young people, and brought those young people on the journey with me. And that's that's critically important. But I watch my sons, and I see, one son has been at Google for twenty years, another son is, was at Google, and now is at a, an AI startup. And I see we have regular conversations, and clearly the issues around leadership, and the issues around remote working, are all things, not only have I discussed with them, but they have, contributed to this. And I think the answer is yes. If we are talking about a vision with a purpose, if we are talking about strategic alignment, if we are talking about empowering and enabling team members, giving them a secure base, a safe base, involving them and in not only in operations but in strategy, empowering them. I believe and this has been validated by many, many successful leadership journeys that I've been on, that those things are universal.

Gregogry Garrison [00:35:17]:

Yes, the technologies are always going to change, and this is critical. One thing I learned in running Usability Labs and as a futurist is that, even the latest greatest technology eventually will be obsolete. And so you've got to you know, continue to stay on the journey, continue to accelerate, continue to steer the ship. But, I I would contend that these some of these things are about human nature and human nature is not going to change all that much even with the COVID lockdowns and with the with the AI disruptive, and, new technologies.

Tim Hughes [00:35:56]:

But I

Gregogry Garrison [00:35:56]:

But I'm

Tim Hughes [00:35:57]:

I agree I agree, Greg. And and I I I I I also understand from Tony's comment that I totally understand that there may be some jet a Gen z person may look into into this podcast and look at this and say there's nothing for me because I don't see anybody like me. That said, I totally agree with you that leadership has changed, and and Flo kind of said this as well, which is that, you know, if you pick up a leadership book from twenty years ago, it was very different from from from what leadership is today. And leadership is about you know, you talked about, you you know, Gen z, they want to work in impact. They want to have a purpose. They want to be empowered. You know, that so that all of those things, I think, are are are really important more so than any other time.

Bertrand Godillot [00:36:50]:

Well, that's exactly what I wanted to comment on because, you know, maybe the the so we I think we can we're we're in a very safe place to talk about this because we probably have accepted or could have accepted our generation to work without purpose.

Tim Hughes [00:37:08]:

Yeah. And it's I I I remember when I was

Bertrand Godillot [00:37:11]:

not the case. So Yep.

Tim Hughes [00:37:12]:

I remember when I'm I was in my twenties. A good friend of mine, told me he just had a meeting with his, manager, and his manager said your job is to buckle down and do what I tell you to do.

Bertrand Godillot [00:37:25]:

Yeah.

Gregogry Garrison [00:37:27]:

Well, this is I think this is an important point because you said that management has changed and leadership has changed. If we look back to the old days of the the command and control systems, the Frederick Taylor sorts of things where, it was top down. Yes. That has definitely changed. And and certainly, I think the, the remote working has forced some changes there to where it's it's really, forced the issue of team empowerment. So that and, you know, as the comment from the other person, there's multiple people that have to steer. And that is right. I think there and and it's the same example that I gave where in in the the off-site where I was leading and directing the team.

Gregogry Garrison [00:38:14]:

And, when I jumped out of the team, all of a sudden they floundered. And so it was critical that I that I empowered the next layer of management. So I think that is a very good point, that the command and control structure is definitely, dead and buried, and, certainly with the evolution of of AI, over time to where you you can't be all things to all people in all places. And so you need to bring that team along with you. And fortunately, I hired, particularly in the innovation labs and things, I hired a number of just, you know, you know, world experts in in ergonomics and human factors and design and so on. People who in their own domains, every one of them knew more than I did about their particular context and their particular technology. But I you know, someone had to tell them where where we were headed. But, I always, prided myself in being able to find and select excellent people.

Gregogry Garrison [00:39:20]:

And that was a function of the success that we had by, one, getting good people. And by the way, also, you know, make sure you really develop your internal people as well. And and I think that's critically important. They have the domain expertise, and many of them have been, you know, glass ceiling by, previous management. So develop your internal people, hire, you know, excellent people, and empower them. And don't feel like, you know, you have to be all things to to all people. And it brings up decision making. There's a Daniel Kahneman, is a, was a Nobel Prize winning economist, but also wrote a book, Thinking Thinking Fast and Thinking Slow.

Gregogry Garrison [00:40:11]:

And this is a good example about, decision making. So if you have the knowledge and the expertise and the training and the background, then you can rapidly assess situations and make make a a quick decision. However, if it's out of your area of expertise or if you have other people that have a better knowledge and experience in the area, that's when you need to stand back. You do your research, decide, should I make the decision? Should I delegate the decision? And do we need to, research and plan and make an alternative decision? So, very important that leadership is confident enough to, share the wealth, confident enough to share the, leadership and take advantage of the quality of the people around you. And particularly over time, if you manage people for, you know, a decade or more, people will develop over time. And where they were junior before, all of a sudden they become more senior and more capable. And then you've got to make sure you don't consider them, you know, as they always were, just a a newbie and recognize their development and and push them out there.

Bertrand Godillot [00:41:34]:

Okay. So so so what what type of advice would you give to, emerging leaders, you know, who are looking to develop their leadership style, and and and probably make a significant impact at the same time?

Gregogry Garrison [00:41:53]:

Well, just as a preamble to that, leadership and management are always contextual. And it really depends on the type of industry you are in. And for me, part of my journey is has been working in different types of organizations. One, have confidence in your instinct, have confidence in yourself, and develop your capabilities of horizon scanning, researching, and continuous development to the and then when you get into an organization, make sure that the organization is an organization that aligns with your internal value system, and your vision, and your purpose in life. And if you are, constantly growing, constantly developing, constantly growing, and educating yourself, which I had to do continuously throughout my career, then make sure that, you're very, careful in the types of roles and the types of organizations that you join. And because culture is a unique thing, and that the cultures can either be virtuous or or not, and or vicious. And so one, I think very importantly is recognize that management is just mediating and being taken over. And I would argue, if someone was thinking about going into management over the next decade, don't.

Gregogry Garrison [00:43:45]:

You consider the fact that this is, these are going to be, these tactical administrative activities are gonna be taken over by tools. And so you need to be a person who's going to set the vision, nurture the teams, have empathy, guide the teams, and grow the teams. So I don't know if that answered the question, but it's partially about your own personal development, but it's also about your your personal development and your value system in alignment with your organizations and your teams.

Bertrand Godillot [00:44:16]:

And we have a comment, I think, which goes into that direction, from Patrick, from Canada, by the way. Hi, Patrick. Great management knows when to turn the lead role over to the best person to represent the team on a situational basis. It is often hard to get people to admit what they are great at. Any comments on this?

Gregogry Garrison [00:44:42]:

Yeah. That's a great comment. And that that comes back back to the, the whole issue around team leadership and developing a good team, hiring a good team, developing trust, and confidence in your people. Because, you know, nobody's again all things to all people. And there were many many times when, I had experts, and particularly as I went to new organizations, there were people that knew much more about the organizations than I did. Fortunately, I was confident enough in my own person, in my own leadership capability, knowing what my role was, to share the leadership with, my management team. And, I remember at one point I had about, seven or eight really, really strong this was a two really really strong strong directors. And each one of them were leaders, not only of their own teams, but they were a part of the leadership team.

Gregogry Garrison [00:45:51]:

And so it's not just the leader, it's the leadership team that you develop. As well as the specialist experts within the organization. And so, at the end of the day, you one, you want to achieve your objectives. Two, you want to have a, a team that is dynamic and self supporting. And just for a moment, I remember there's a British poet, David White. David White talks about the fact that, true friends are few and far between. But friends of the road are very important. And he gives the analogies.

Gregogry Garrison [00:46:39]:

If you're in the mountains of Afghanistan in the middle of the night, in the middle of the storm, so you're very grateful for your friends of the road who are watching your back, with you on the journey of the fire and protecting you from the the element. I think that's part of the whole idea of a of a team that is pulls together. And the team will only pull together if they, one, feel, you know, they have a safe base. Two, if they have trust. Three, if there's a value exchange between you and the employees. And four, if they're growing and developing. And so there were many times when myself, my leadership team and the organization, we just had a heck of a lot of fun doing exciting things together, accomplishing things together. And yes, we had trials and tribulations.

Gregogry Garrison [00:47:35]:

There's an example I give in the book. One time we spent many months with a major release. And, on the weekend, we had to, launch this release. And by Sunday afternoon, the thing had failed. And, you know, we were sorely disappointed and and, had to regroup, and it was going to mean, you know, many weeks or months of additional work. So I walked in the office on Monday morning, and everybody is somber and downtrodden. And I walk in, smile on my face as usual and say, nobody died. Did they? Everybody bursts out laughing.

Gregogry Garrison [00:48:11]:

No. I said, okay. Well, you know, in six months or six years, we won't even remember this happened. Let's just, let's just deal with it. We'll get on with it. You know, nothing earth shaking happened. And I think it's very important to have a little bit of humor, but also to be encouraging rather than punitive. Because at the end of the day, if I'd have walked in and said, what the hell happened? You've got to be kidding me.

Gregogry Garrison [00:48:39]:

This is, you know, this costs us thousands of pounds or euros or dollars. That would have been very disruptive and detrimental to the process of fixing and delivering a new successful release.

Tim Hughes [00:48:55]:

So, Greg, we've got Yeah. Two questions we need to have. And there's two really good questions that have come in.

Bertrand Godillot [00:49:02]:

So we

Tim Hughes [00:49:02]:

So there's Jeffrey Weiss, which basically says, are leaders as transferable as we treat them today?

Gregogry Garrison [00:49:12]:

Very good point. Perhaps. I'm gonna qualify this. So I worked in for many years in five different countries. I worked in financial services. I worked in sports. I worked in banking. I worked in media.

Gregogry Garrison [00:49:37]:

I worked in mobiles and broadband and so on. And I would argue that many of my team building and leadership skills were transferable because of the fact and and why? Because I was guiding teams, helping teams, encouraging teams, empowering teams. But the people with the knowledge about the organization, the deep knowledge of the organization were the people in my teams, my directors, my managers, my employees, and so on. So so leadership, I think, and again, it goes back to the the issue of, you know, thinking slow and thinking fast. If knowing what you know and knowing what you don't know. And, you know, it's not about faking it until you make it. It's about growing and developing. And I was constantly, in in every job, I would, you know, have to, you know, be involved in rapid continuous development.

Gregogry Garrison [00:50:41]:

And so, yes, I think leadership skills are absolutely transferable into almost any context.

Tim Hughes [00:50:49]:

And and I'm gonna cut across you because I wanna get Patrick in his, Yeah.

Bertrand Godillot [00:50:53]:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Tim Hughes [00:50:54]:

Which is Greg. What what was the most important lesson your mentor or mentors installed instilled in you? And you've got two minutes.

Gregogry Garrison [00:51:08]:

Tragically, tragically, I never had a mentor. And this was perhaps a good thing and that not having a mentor is I had to pull myself up by my bootstraps in every different environment and every different country and in every different role. What I have done as a mentor is I think one, provided opportunity for my people, believing in them, encouraging them, picking them up, supporting them. You know, when something went wrong, you know, encouraging them of what they, you know, have done right, and why they are capable, and why they can, you know, rise to the occasion. So I think, as a mentor myself, developing and growing and believing in people and, trusting people. And trust is a value exchange. One that, they know that you have their back, and and you know that they, you know, you have their support.

Tim Hughes [00:52:10]:

So Bertrand's got his I need to close the show face on.

Bertrand Godillot [00:52:13]:

Yes. Exactly. And, Neil, what he looks like is That was really great.

Tim Hughes [00:52:19]:

Thank you so much, Greg.

Bertrand Godillot [00:52:20]:

Yeah. Where where can people learn more? Where where can we find you?

Gregogry Garrison [00:52:26]:

LinkedIn, Gregory H Garrison. And, on on my website, gregonleadership.com.

Bertrand Godillot [00:52:34]:

And the two excellent books.

Tim Hughes [00:52:36]:

And don't forget Greg's look at Gregory h Garrison's books on Amazon. Lead book one and book two.

Bertrand Godillot [00:52:44]:

Excellent.

Gregogry Garrison [00:52:45]:

Thank you very much, Jim. I really appreciate it.

Tim Hughes [00:52:47]:

Trying to do an ad first for you, Greg.

Bertrand Godillot [00:52:48]:

You know? Sorry, Greg, because this is, for some reason, in the wrong space. But, we now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode. Get the show ins the show highlights, sorry, beyond the show insights and reminders of upcoming episodes. You can scan the QR code on screen or visit us at digitaldownload.live/newsletter. On behalf of the panelists, and, to our guest, Greg Garrison, and to our audience, which was very participative today. Right? Thank you all, and see you next time. Bye bye.

Bertrand Godillot [00:53:30]:

Thanks, Craig.

Gregogry Garrison [00:53:33]:

Pleasure to watch. Really appreciate it. Bye.

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