This week on The Digital Download, we're diving deep into the power of community with our special guest, David Pugsley. As a Success Strategist and Story Teller at Salesforce, David has a unique perspective on how connections can drive success. With a background that spans from the Royal Navy to the tech industry, he's learned the value of relationships and community throughout his career.  

Join us as we discuss questions like:

• What is the role of community in today's digital world?

• How can businesses leverage community to build stronger relationships with customers?

• What are the key elements of a successful online community?

• How can individuals build their own personal brand through community engagement?

• What are the challenges and opportunities of building and maintaining a thriving community?

David's experience across diverse sectors, including his leadership role in the Worshipful Company of Carmen and his passion for the RSA's mission of building a better future, makes him an ideal guest to discuss the power of community.  

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!  

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• David Pugsley, a Salesforce Account Executive.

This week's Host was -

• Bertrand Godillot, Founder and Managing Partner of Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of DLA Ignite,

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

• Tracy Borreson, Founder and CEO of TLB Coaching & Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite

Transcript of The Digital Download 2025-02-21

Bertrand Godillot [00:00:08]:

Oops. Good afternoon, good morning, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to a new edition of the Digital Download, the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn live. Now globally syndicated on TuneIn Radio through IBGR, the world's number one business talk, news, and strategy radio network. Today, we are delving into the power of community with our special guest, David Puxley, a success strategist and storyteller at Salesforce. But before we bring Devin on, let's go around the set and introduce everyone. While we are doing that, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend, ping them, and have them join us? We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience. Audience participation is highly encouraged.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:00]:

Tim, why don't you kick us off?

Tim Hughes [00:01:03]:

Yes. Thank you, Bertrand. Welcome everybody. My name is Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO and cofounder of DLA Ignite and, famous for writing the book, social selling techniques to influence bars and change makers.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:17]:

Excellent. Tracy?

Tracy Borreson [00:01:20]:

Good morning, everyone. I am Tracy Boursin, founder of TLB Coaching and Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite. And I don't know about you guys, but I feel like the show has gotten, like, a new level of distinguishedness with the French intro. I really like it. And I am, like, a huge proponent of communities. So I am super excited for this conversation today.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:45]:

Thank you for that, Tracy, and thanks for the what did you say exactly?

Tracy Borreson [00:01:49]:

Distinguished. The distinguished. Excellent.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:52]:

Thank you so much. Adam.

Adam Gray [00:01:55]:

Hi, everyone. I'm Adam Gray. I'm cofounder of DLA Ignite and Tim's business partner. And, this show every week, is like a community in itself. So it would be really interesting to hear David's perspective on building communities. And, Yeah. It it's lovely to feel part of something, isn't it?

Tracy Borreson [00:02:18]:

It is.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:19]:

It is. And myself, Bertrand Godillot, I am the founder and managing partner of Odysseus and Co, a very proud DLA Ignite partner as well. And as I said this week on the digital download, we'll speak with David. David has a unique perspective on how connections can drive success. With a background that spans from the Royal Navy to the tech industry, he's learned the value of relationships and community throughout his career. So let's bring, let's bring, David on.

Adam Gray [00:02:51]:

Hello? Hello, David.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:55]:

Bonjour. Bonjour.

David Pugsley [00:03:02]:

No. That's it. That's the Yeah.

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:06]:

David, thank you thank you thank you so much. Good afternoon and welcome. David, let's start with having you tell us a little bit more about yourself, your background, and what led you where you are today.

David Pugsley [00:03:20]:

Thank you. Thank you, Bertrand, and, thank you, for, inviting me on the show. It's, it's, a delight to be here and, a delight to be talking about communities that, I came, as you said, from the Royal Navy. So I had a full career in, her majesty's forces, serving all around the world, doing various different jobs, at, at sea and, shore. And when I came out of the Navy, I thought I needed to do something with my life. So I went into the computer industry and, I spent the last twenty odd years in the, in the IT industry, in various, large, and large corporates and small start ups. And, I now find myself at, a small company that some people may have heard of called Salesforce. And I'm actually responsible for our MuleSoft, business development in, into our public sector and defense territories.

David Pugsley [00:04:29]:

So, it's quite an exciting area for me to be involved in. And Salesforce is a fascinating, you know, interesting company, to to to join at this stage in my career. So I'm really chuffed to be, to be involved with, that particular company. So, so that's me. And, I I, I I met some, some mad people a few years ago, called called Tim and Adam in another company. And they told me about this thing called social media, which I'd never heard of. And then, and and then here I am now on LinkedIn Live.

Tim Hughes [00:05:07]:

An influencer.

David Pugsley [00:05:13]:

Thank you. Excellent.

Bertrand Godillot [00:05:15]:

Excellent, David. So, David, let's start with the informational question. What is the role of community in today's digital world?

David Pugsley [00:05:24]:

Well, I I I think one of the great things about social media is is the ability to, to form communities across boundaries. And, and and I'm particularly keen on, what I what I, sort of, in my internal monologue, call, communities of soul, because I think we we you know, as as when you're on social media and LinkedIn and things, people talk about networking and, you know, you get to networking events and that tends to be quite transactional. And I think what I'm trying to do with my, community building is is to, to delve a bit deeper into what actually people, you know, what what makes people people and what what what makes people tick, really. And and a lot of that, for me, I was at an event yesterday, which, they, which was fascinating, because that was a a real soul community, about kind of like how do people think about building businesses and how to how do they sort of join one of the constituents, one of the participants was talking about joining two sides of herself together, you know, the the sort of business perspective and her own personal sort of, you know, drive and energy. And and and I thought that was just beautiful because it's like that's what I'm about, that that sort of, like, building communities where people find their soul and find find their center, and and engage and, you know, interact with not just clients, but but other people within the community through that, through through that exchanging real value in, in in, you know, person to person communication.

Tim Hughes [00:07:16]:

Well, you're you're must be quite a role model for people because you've done a fantastic job of integrating your who you are and the stuff you do away from work into your business kind of persona. Because, I know, you know, you you do your funny things, feet wet Friday and stuff like that, which which kind of the first few times you did it, and and certainly, you know, this is an outsider's perspective. First few times you did it, everyone was pounced on it and went, oh my god. That's so funny. That's really cool. And then you went on and on and on doing it, and people are like, oh god. Here he comes again. And then all of a sudden, in spite of themselves, people are going, actually, this is really cool, and it's become part of my my weekly kind of program of stuff that I consume.

Tim Hughes [00:08:05]:

And I know that you are a member of the, worshipful company of Cartman, chairman. Chairman? Lord? Whatever.

David Pugsley [00:08:10]:

Don't you? I was the the master of last year. The only Jopee. Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:08:15]:

Yeah. And and and bringing that into the business world as well, it shows, it shows different facets to who you are, doesn't it? You know? There's one guy. There's the kind of quite traditional guy with the the kind of all the regalia and stuff, and there's the business guy as well. And you you must see people that work with you and people that you interact with starting to latch onto this and do the same in their own way.

David Pugsley [00:08:41]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And that's that's so exciting, isn't it? Because it's sort of like well, it's it's quite relieving as well because it's like because I'm not just on my own anymore. I'm not on my own madness, which certainly when I first started, Feet Wet Friday. For for those listeners who don't know what Feet Wet Friday is, it's a very simple concept that, on a Friday, you get your feet wet and, and you do it on LinkedIn.

David Pugsley [00:09:12]:

And and, and there is a story that goes behind that, which we we should go to if you want to, but it's kind of like that, you know, when I first started that, I felt quite alone and thought, oh, is this gonna, like, is this actually gonna be something that is you know, I'm doing on LinkedIn for god's sake. It's like the world's professional network. But I I I felt deep down and that and I think that's where this sort of idea of community and support and everything else. Deep down, I knew there are people that I was, you know, connected to on LinkedIn that that had done similar journeys in their own lives. You know? You know, I've got friends who were you know, one of them was an accountant and then turned himself into a poet. And and, you know, there's other you know, peep people who had, you know, very sort of corporate careers are now deeply involved in, you know, coaching and running running charities and all sorts of things. So I think I was thinking about that kind of, you know, if he were Friday, for me, was something about kind of breaking out of that, you know, I was in a bit of a funk, really. That's why I was that's why I actually did it.

David Pugsley [00:10:26]:

But but the, but but behind it was a sort of idea that actually that that there was there was something real there, that that actually by doing something physical, you could actually break out of that kind of mold. And and, you know, that that that's the breaking out of that mold would get you closer into who you were.

Tim Hughes [00:10:50]:

So when you meet people, either face to face or virtually, do they reference the things that you've done online? So do do they do they connect the here's the David that's that's that's gone into the minus five degrees water and is screaming because it's so cold, and here's the David that's that's putting on a a a his kind of common regalia, and here's David, the businessman that's gonna help me with the implementation of a software solution.

David Pugsley [00:11:24]:

Yeah. I think it I think it's, it's fascinating. I think one of the things about social media is is that, nine times out of 10, people I meet these days are they go, I think I know you already. I'm not sure where from. And and it's sort of like there's sort of curiosity in there, kind of like particularly if I'm meeting them face to face. If if I, you you know, if I meet them online, there's this, you know I had a classic comment with one of one of my, one of my potential clients, a couple of months ago where where he he said, I think I know you already. You know, it feels like I know you already. And then so, you know, it's that classic, you know, what you talk about, Tim, in your book and and, Adam, you know, you you you teach.

David Pugsley [00:12:17]:

It's that kind of like, of course you know me already because I've been there. I've been there in your feed, and and it's that subliminal thing, isn't it?

Tim Hughes [00:12:27]:

And is that a good thing or a bad thing?

David Pugsley [00:12:31]:

I think, I think it's slightly discombobulating for some people because they kind of think, you know, and I had, funny enough, one just yesterday where, a lady online sort of said, why do we know each other? In a sort of very, you know, interesting sort of, like, front front up front way. Even though she connected to me, you know, a couple of, weeks ago or whatever, and I was just sort of, you know, reaching out and, and, you know, suggesting that we should have a coffee or something like that. And, and then it's sort of like, you know, there's a there was a bit of a kind of, like in in her mind, there was obviously a bit of a kind of, like, who is this person that's invaded my life? But I think nine times out of 10, it's much more it's an easier kind of interaction because people people sort of you know, they they kind of get themselves through that bit of, like, they think they they know you and and they just make the mental leap that actually they do know you and and the conversation flows as a result.

Tracy Borreson [00:13:35]:

Well, and I think too, David, one of the things that I have seen is that when you reveal the different facets of your personality, people think they know you better because they've seen more of you. And even though this is look. When I'm working with clients, it's like people I don't wanna I don't wanna share that. I'm like, I'm not telling you not to share everything. Just share that you're multidimensional.

David Pugsley [00:14:00]:

Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:14:00]:

Share what you want to share in your multidimensionality. It does not have to be all of the things. And, also, I think one of the really interesting thing that's then I've experienced is that when people do meet you, either virtually in a one on one or in person, that brand experience is the same. So they have that experience of, like, don't I know you? My favorite thing I got was just like, oh, you're Tracy from LinkedIn.

David Pugsley [00:14:27]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:14:28]:

Like, I'm the only Tracy on LinkedIn, which I am not by the way. But, like, her experience of me is, like, Tracy on LinkedIn. And then I met we met in person and it was really cool. So I have a, like, question about this, though. So I think all of us have probably experienced those people where we reach out and they're like, why are you reaching out to me? How do we know each other? I only accept connection requests from people who I've met in person before. And I'm like, okay. That's not how I do it, but that's fine. But how do we balance this, like, self protection from a social media point of view? Because we're people are still getting a lot of sales pitches and things like that with this idea that humans really do need community to be a, like, fully functioning human.

Tracy Borreson [00:15:20]:

So when the social media interactions come into play with that, any tips for how to balance that experience?

David Pugsley [00:15:27]:

Yeah. I think, I I think you're absolutely right. It's about the multi, you know, the multi dynamic dimensional fact of of who you are, and and the more you can show that online in, you know, obviously, in in, you know, a a sort of appropriate way, I suppose. I mean, I'm I I suspect I'm probably on the edge of, like, where LinkedIn would would really value me to be in terms

Tracy Borreson [00:15:56]:

of But even that, like, because I think about this a lot. Like, that's kind of a story. We all have our, like, edges of where we think LinkedIn has been created, and LinkedIn has been created as a professional networking site.

David Pugsley [00:16:10]:

Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:16:11]:

That is very broad unless we create a narrower definition of what professional networking is. But I think a lot of people would also say that, like, building a sole community is not the same as building a professional network.

David Pugsley [00:16:25]:

Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:16:26]:

But then my question would be like, why are these two things different? Are they different? Do they have to be different?

David Pugsley [00:16:31]:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think I think that's the that's that's the, you know, that for for me, it's about well, it's for me, I I I try and make it about my experience rather than tell people. So that's that's a big thing for me is it's it's got to be about tell show show, not tell and and me. You know, talk about me, rather than we. So it's about my journey, my professional journey, what you know, the things I struggle with in my life, whether that's, you know, sort of blue fronts or, you know, just not being, you know, off, you know, off my being off my game a bit or on my game or whatever it is. And and and I think, you know, part of my so so I think building that, over over the years on on LinkedIn does give me a profile that sort of says, well, this person's normal, but he, you know, he struggles with, you know, everything that everybody struggles with at work because, you know, work is where you learn, isn't it? Work is, you know, that that sort of what what what yeah.

David Pugsley [00:17:45]:

Exactly, Mary. Make it make it fun. But but but also a recognition that actually is sort of like there are some tough bits. There's some bits that really gritty bits, and that's, of course, where you where the learning happens, you know, is that in relationships or work or or whatever. So so I suspect there's something about that how how you build a, you know, how you build a community is you show yourself, don't you? You show you you put yourself out there and then the community builds around you, I think. It's it's it's something like that, isn't it?

Tim Hughes [00:18:23]:

Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, people are certainly drawn to, things that resonate with them.

David Pugsley [00:18:30]:

Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:18:31]:

A lot of the challenge that that we see on professional networks like LinkedIn is the fact that people talk about things that don't really matter. Yeah. I mean, whether or not you're working for Salesforce or another large tech vendor, actually, to you matters, and it to to them it matters, but to me it doesn't because that's just your employer until, you know, we decide to transact some business, that's your employer. So when people come to the platform and expect people to get excited about the fact that there's a new product or a new service or even to a lesser extent that they've been promoted, although there there is some engagement on that because obviously it's about you rather than about the business. But invariably, the the biggest wins that people get are when they talk about stuff that matters to everyone. You know? I've I've I've become a parent or I crashed my car or my dog died or whatever the the thing is that there are loads of people out there that can empathise with that, and that's the bit that moves you closer together, and it's a true bonding experience, isn't it? It's it's the stuff, like you said, on which relationships are founded.

David Pugsley [00:19:37]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hello, Rich.

Tracy Borreson [00:19:40]:

Post, a fellow marketer in my network had fallen on her bike and lost her front tooth and posted a picture of, like, her missing tooth. And she ended up going to the dentist and getting a replacement and everything, but the post went viral. And the only reason she posted it was because she wanted clients to know that, like, this had happened. And if she wasn't responding, that, like, this was why. And she was like, I've never had so much business in my life. Everyone wants the marketer with one tooth. I don't

David Pugsley [00:20:13]:

know. I don't know.

Tracy Borreson [00:20:15]:

But it's because it was a personal story, and people felt like, oh, man. Like, one, if that I I can feel what that would feel like if that happened to me. And I can also, like, feel the bravery of someone posting that because it would be very easy not to do

David Pugsley [00:20:31]:

that. Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:20:32]:

I don't I don't look perfect, especially from the female point of view. Yeah. Like, I don't look perfect. I can't post this. And it people the people the humans loved it. Yeah. And I think that that is the thing that we forget when we're just looking at LinkedIn as a professional networking platform. We forget that all the people who are doing the professional networking are humans.

Tracy Borreson [00:20:58]:

And if we be human, then we can create connection, create community based on our humanness. And instead of, like Adam was saying, on the company who's your employer.

Tim Hughes [00:21:11]:

But I think also showing that frailty is as you said, Tracy, is is a really powerful thing because, you know and we see it now with kind of, Instagram and TikTok influencers where there's a move for women, who are known for being extremely glamorous to post photos of themselves without makeup on. And I think that's incredibly powerful because it shows people that perfection in quotes, is actually just one facet of of who people are. And I think that, you know, we we are increasingly starting to see that on on business networks as well. You know, conversations around mental health and and struggles in that area. You know, ten years ago, you never ever would have posted I'm really struggling with my mental health at the moment. Nobody ever would have dared post that because they would have assumed that was the end of their career if they were showed any sign of weakness. Whereas now, people that are going through a tough time often do mention it in passing. And, I I I was ill a a few years ago, and I posted about the fact that I was ill.

Tim Hughes [00:22:22]:

I got literally hundreds of comments from people, and Tim said at the time, he said, you should print that out. And if ever you're feeling miserable,

Bertrand Godillot [00:22:29]:

you should

Tim Hughes [00:22:30]:

look at what people have said about you, and it will cheer you up. And I think that that that sense of community, people rallying around and showing your support, and if that that support might be, well, I'm gonna come around and see you and take you out for a bite to eat, or it could just be I'm thinking of you. That's a really, really powerful and important thing, particularly because in the digital world has the power to to move us closer together, but often it doesn't.

David Pugsley [00:22:56]:

Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:22:56]:

Often it means that we don't move closer together.

Adam Gray [00:23:00]:

Well, I'm I'm I'm new to this journey and apologies for arriving a little bit late, but, having sort of historically posted kind of the traditional sort of LinkedIn professional content, which has garnered very little interest. I've I've posted, twice in the last two weeks. Once about a dislocated shoulder and the second one about the kind of mental health benefits of running. And both of them have actually garnered significantly more engagement than anything I'd previously done. And I kinda see this as being the sort of, the bit the conversation that you used to have between the reception desk and sitting down and having a formal meeting. The sort of the engagement on stuff that's less formal, but the stuff that builds the rapport and the basis upon the relationship that you you're trying to

Bertrand Godillot [00:23:52]:

establish. Yeah. This was this was Richard.

David Pugsley [00:23:57]:

Welcome to Richard Jones. So I I I I I

Bertrand Godillot [00:24:00]:

will download the community is growing. So, and and that's a a major addition. That I've made And

Tim Hughes [00:24:05]:

and it's yeah. It's Richard's first show, everybody. Exactly. Hey.

David Pugsley [00:24:11]:

Welcome, Richard.

Bertrand Godillot [00:24:13]:

Welcome, Richard.

Adam Gray [00:24:13]:

The only problem is that for the last well, I was due on last Friday, and I had something happening that I had no control over. And, something similar has happened at 02:00 on this Friday afternoon. So, hopefully, it's not gonna be a a habit.

Tim Hughes [00:24:27]:

It wasn't more gradual, I assume.

Adam Gray [00:24:29]:

No. No. It was another sort of domestic sort of semi crisis that leaves on.

Tracy Borreson [00:24:38]:

See, this is the good thing about this show being at 7AM for me. There's no time before this for anything to go wrong.

Bertrand Godillot [00:24:44]:

Exactly. Alright. So I'd like to come back to something you said, David, because you you and and also something that Tracy, mentioned about bravery, and and also about, I think someone you met yesterday that was mentioning, David, bringing two sizes of ourselves together. And and I'd like to understand, or maybe if we've got, people interested, from the business into how you can build communities. So how how can you actually leverage community, to build a stronger relationship with your with your target

David Pugsley [00:25:25]:

So I think

Bertrand Godillot [00:25:26]:

anything you you can share with

David Pugsley [00:25:28]:

Yeah. With us on that. I think one one of, I mean, I I suppose the the first thing is I I I I mean, yeah, Adam mentioned that, I I last year, I was I was lucky enough to, to run a a volunteer organization in the city of London, of of, a membership organization, of six six hundred plus, members. And and so that was a very deliberate community that had been set up, around, you know, the city of London, been running for five hundred years. My job was to help try and modernize it and things, but it was a very deliberate community setup, and and so I engaged with that in a very deliberate way in a leadership role with a leadership team. You know, we did formal events and things like that. I think so that's kind of, like, one aspect of building communities. You know, you you set up a business.

David Pugsley [00:26:28]:

You you set up a, you know, a a a volunteer organization. You set up a charity, whatever it is that that builds that particular community. I think here, on, you know, on on sort of social media and and some of the other parts of, you know, community building, and and there is an overlap of the you know, the Venn diagram does overlap in in terms of it's all about humans and, you know, how humans interact with each other. But but I think one is one is a very deliberate kind of process, much more process orientated, and one is one is much more organic, I think, where where you kind of build build people who have, you know, are attracted to each other because they're they're they're eclectic people or they're they're they have a particular interest in in, you know, like, I don't know, you know, tiddlywinks or something. But it's sort of, you you know, there there's a sort of organic process that happens that on social media, I think, that that you know, I didn't set out to build a community, but I you know, community has occurred around, you know, the stuff I do on LinkedIn, and there are different communities. You know, there's a community that follows, you know, Necky and Pugs, which is, you know, two blokes speaking about, you know, their their their world, you know, and how how they interact together. And there's a community around Feedback Friday, and, you know, they're they're sort of different sorts of people that are attracted to those communities. And I think in terms of bill business, then, you know, I'm what I'm trying to do is create sort of multifaceted for people to plug into so that so that, you know, if if business you know, I always think of myself, I'm not really a seller.

David Pugsley [00:28:11]:

I'm a buyer for service data. You know, if people wanna buy something from me, they they can come in through one of these one of these sort of, you know, funnels, really, of of different communities. But hopefully, they'll come in in a nice way that they're kind of, like, attracted to the fact that I love tiddlywinks or whatever it is that, you know, I'm I'm, I I'm particularly, you know, keen on.

Tim Hughes [00:28:34]:

So so does this help with business? So, you know, I'm a salesman working in the tech sector, and I'm thinking about you know, I'm I'm like all salespeople, I'm struggling to make my number. I'm struggling struggling to bring deals in this side of the year end rather than after the year end and all of that stuff. So does this building a group of friends, frankly, in all of these different does that help facilitate that?

David Pugsley [00:29:01]:

I think it does because, you know, business is about conversations. And, you know, the more conversations you can have, the more people you can meet, the more, you know, particularly if, you know, their their their conversations in the right sort of areas, the the the more, you know, you're likely to run across someone who actually wants something or or or or, you know, need needs what you what what what it is that you you you've got to sell. It it's it's but it's a it's like it's it's not I think I think the the the the old idea of sort of sending out, you know, millions of mails and, you know, getting people to an event and things like that, that still obviously exists. But it's kind of like it's not it's not that useful in terms of actual, you know, interactions, is it? Whereas what what you can build on social media is is is a much, much more sort of organic process, isn't it, of of business interaction. And I think that's that's the other thing about networking. Networking is transactional. It's like, I'm gonna network with you because I know you wanna buy this thing, or I think I know you wanna buy this thing. Whereas what I think what we're trying to do what I'm trying to do on social media is is, like, not network, but connect.

David Pugsley [00:30:17]:

And and it's that's why I call it a community of connections.

Bertrand Godillot [00:30:20]:

Mhmm.

Adam Gray [00:30:22]:

So so

Tracy Borreson [00:30:23]:

Sorry. Go ahead. No.

Tim Hughes [00:30:24]:

Go on.

Tracy Borreson [00:30:25]:

I was just gonna say, like, I I just wanted to give a some because I've been thinking about this a lot for myself because I participate in a lot of different communities. I have communities that I've created that I run. I participate in this one. I participate in one called the fractional forum. I participated in a bunch of places. And I oftentimes people ask me like, what's the strategy behind that? And my answer is always, I like the people.

David Pugsley [00:30:50]:

Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:30:51]:

Those places. So I go and I have conversations. And the thing that's really interesting is I've been like looking at my, like my platform of clients right now. And, like, where did these people come from?

David Pugsley [00:31:03]:

Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:31:03]:

One of them came from my cardio dance class. One of them actually originated from this show because someone was in the chat and I connect with them. And then we were I was on board with one of these little and now I'm working with them. Right? Like, this is how a lady who commonly watches my crazy stupid marketing show introduced me to one of my other clients. Or like but none of those people found me or were looking for me because I'm a marketer.

David Pugsley [00:31:32]:

Right.

Tracy Borreson [00:31:32]:

It's not why they were looking for me. They found me and they felt a connection, a vibe, because I allow that connection to be the thing that I care about presenting to the world instead of a transaction. And I think from a, like, business development point of view, a lot of people miss that connection because they think they have to curate this, like, really expansive network in lots of places and who has time for that and all of those things. But if you can show up in the places that feel good to you with those, like, soul connections, make soul connections with people. And, yes, those people have to know what you do to make a good introduction at the end of the day. But if they like you first, then they care what you do. Yeah. So then they remember what you do.

Tracy Borreson [00:32:24]:

And then when someone in their network is like, oh man, I really need this kind of help. They'll be like, oh, well you have to talk to Tracy. Right? Like there's no one else you should talk to. You should talk to this person. And like, That I think is the power also because then as the one who's participating and building that community, I feel a sense of connectedness. I feel a sense of belonging. And now my clients actually fit that profile as well. And I think that people miss out on that.

Tracy Borreson [00:32:56]:

I think there's still a mindset that people think they have to chase clients.

David Pugsley [00:32:59]:

Yeah. Instead of

Tracy Borreson [00:33:01]:

that, like, your best clients could be part of your community.

David Pugsley [00:33:04]:

Exactly. And I think it's that that, coming from a place of abundance, isn't it? If you if you come from a place where you think you can only get clients this way, then at that scale, you're only ever gonna get clients that way, aren't you? Whereas if you come from a place of abundance, like, anybody could be your client or friend of a friend of a friend could be your client, then, you know, the world's your oyster, isn't it? A billion what is it? But it was you always spoke to a billion people on LinkedIn or something. There is. A lot of people.

Tim Hughes [00:33:33]:

So here's a question for you, David. So you and I I I don't mean this in a belittling way. You're just a bloke working in a sales role in a big tech company, and you've worked this out. How come most companies haven't worked this out?

David Pugsley [00:33:50]:

You know? Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:33:52]:

And and I think that that that, you know, your your way of doing this is incredibly sophisticated, and it's built on forging relationships at scale with trust, with people that like you and therefore want to try to help you to do business with them and their businesses.

David Pugsley [00:34:10]:

Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:34:11]:

Yet most organizations think that the answer is just to keep shouting and keep shouting louder. And eventually, someone will go, oh, of course. How silly. Yeah. And so so so how come you've got it and and most companies haven't?

David Pugsley [00:34:25]:

I think I think it's that classic. I've worked this out a few years ago actually that that most sales books you you read, they start with with, you know, the the client has already arrived in some way, some magic way. The client has kinda come in the top of the funnel. And and, generally, because of where we've come from as as as, you know, the working world, particularly as we've gone digital, most most of that has been in the marketing. Forgive me, Tracy.

Tracy Borreson [00:35:01]:

It's true. I was just gonna say that's marketing's job. Right? Just fill the funnel.

David Pugsley [00:35:05]:

Yeah. So that is that's been the marketing job. And and and I think what what's fascinated to me I went I went to it I was invited to a marketing conference, last year. So I toddled it all, to meet some marketers, see what they got up to. And it was actually amazing because they were talking in a totally and utterly different language from sales. They were like, oh, yes. You know, you do all this sort of stuff over here, and, you know, like, you know, we we we, you know, we do all of this, and it's marvelous. And I'm like, how many people actually arrive, you know, having done all that, how many people actually arrive, you know, in sales? They're like, oh, we don't care about that.

Tracy Borreson [00:35:47]:

This is the problem I'm about to fix, by the way, people. So just if you're wondering.

David Pugsley [00:35:50]:

Yeah. Yeah. If you want that fixed, speak to Tracy.

Tracy Borreson [00:35:53]:

Just say it. Talk to someone about it. It's not supposed to be like that.

David Pugsley [00:35:57]:

So and I think that's the that's the problem we've got in the way we set up corporates or with all the or or in fact, the way we you know, I've been in small businesses as well. The way small businesses operate is that you you've got this classic pattern where you've got to do a bit of marketing, build you know, I mean, you know, I've been in a small business where we spent, you know, over a year trying to build a website. It's like complete madness. You know? There's no no

Tracy Borreson [00:36:22]:

That's too long, by the way.

David Pugsley [00:36:24]:

It's a complete waste of time to hear you. But but probably it wasn't a complete waste of time. Sorry about that. But but it but it was too long. And so, you know, you you've got this sort of, like, you know, you go on the course. You go on the the, you know, the the, thousand small businesses course, and, you know, there's all these various business courses and things. You read the books and everything else. And they they they all start with marketing, don't they? And then they then they get to the, you know, right.

David Pugsley [00:36:54]:

What are we going to do now? Are we going to, you know, are we going to take these leads and we're going to warm them up and all this? It's a classic sort of funnel that every corporate has and small business has in their mind. Now, of course, there's a funnel, but it's kind of the way we go about structuring that is still very old school. We haven't cottoned on to the fact that it's we've gone digital. It's a bit like yeah. A lot of my customers I deal with public sector. A lot of my customers still have paper forms. And it's like, you know, the world's moved on from paper forms, but, you know, we still have paper forms. And it is still the same within businesses where they still have this kind of idea that people, you know, interact with businesses in this very set structured way.

David Pugsley [00:37:36]:

And of course the world has moved on. It's moved on a hundred times since then. But businesses are slow adapters to that sort of change, aren't they?

Tim Hughes [00:37:47]:

And and is that because they're they're they just don't understand it, or is that because they're scared of change, or is that because they're embedded in the way things used to be? Because, you know, you must hear this a lot in eve even in the sales role in a large well structured organization. You know? You have a bad quarter, and everyone's saying, yeah. But there's, you know, green shoots for next quarter. It's looking like it's gonna be a much better it's like a a lot of this is delusional behaviour based on what you hope is gonna happen rather than what you think is likely to happen.

David Pugsley [00:38:19]:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, it's it's quite interesting as you know, I've I've, you know, I've been in organisations where they go through a very structured process at the beginning of the year where they kind of, like, say, right. We're gonna write our plans for the year, and, you know, we're gonna make this happen in quarter one and this happen in quarter two and, you know, so on and so forth. And and all the salespeople are gonna put down how much they're gonna, you know, what what they're gonna bring into the business, and so we'll have a lovely plan. And, of course, I'm thinking, really? How is this gonna work then? Because you're not allowed to say that because you're in a sales organization, so you have to write write your plan. And, you know, that that's just the way because that's the way they're set up.

David Pugsley [00:39:00]:

And the reason they're set up is that way is because the sales process, the salespeople have been promoted in sales, you know, into management and everything else. They've grown up with that structure. So they're like, oh, I came from the Royal Navy. I didn't didn't understand all this, but, you know, people people have been around a lot longer than me. They that's how they've done it. So, like, oh, this must be right. And, of course, you you know, how can it be right? Because guess what? Halfway through the year, half of those plans have fallen away, and then she closed all the way through the year. The the other half have fallen away.

David Pugsley [00:39:35]:

So

Tim Hughes [00:39:36]:

And people are running around saying, just sell something.

Tracy Borreson [00:39:39]:

But we can close it all in q four. It's fine.

David Pugsley [00:39:43]:

But it's like it's it's corporate amnesia, isn't it? Because you're sort of like they've everyone forgets that, and they start again. Oh, hello. Here we are.

Tim Hughes [00:39:55]:

Yeah. And and and it so much of

Bertrand Godillot [00:39:58]:

of this

David Pugsley [00:39:58]:

I'll never get promoted, by the way.

Tim Hughes [00:40:01]:

No. No. But I think I think, I think in many ways, that's a good thing, isn't it? You know, when you understand what your strengths are, you know, the businesses and and the world has a habit of promoting people out of the things they're naturally good at and into the areas that they're not.

David Pugsley [00:40:15]:

Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:40:15]:

But but I think that, you know, when I worked, in large corporations, we were always told about how, you know, the the sales was like a hockey stick. And and the reason we were told that is it means, actually, we don't have to do anything for the first half of the year Yeah. Because it's a hockey stick, and it'll all come in the last half, you know, to to your point, Tracy. And and it always surprised me that, well, you know, this year is just a continuation of last year, and it became, you know, it's the forerunner of the following year. So this should be a fairly linear thing. You know, we should be doing this stuff that we do in the last quarter. We should be doing this throughout the year as a normal behavior. And that's that's building communities, isn't it? Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:40:56]:

It's having conversations with more and more people and getting onto the radar of those people and then maintaining the relationships with those people. So that again further to your point, David, where you don't have to sell. You facilitate them coming to buy when the time is right for them to buy rather than chasing them out the door. Well, I I I qualified him as a no. Well, he's only a no today. He might be a yes tomorrow.

David Pugsley [00:41:21]:

Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:41:21]:

But but that's that opportunity. That ship sailed now.

David Pugsley [00:41:25]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, you know, that's the that's the thing, success over time, isn't it? I was talking to someone else about this the other day. You know, you're kind of like just because we haven't done it here doesn't mean in six months we won't have done it. It's just, you know, it's where the the the time scale over which you measure things, isn't it? Mhmm.

Tracy Borreson [00:41:44]:

Well, I think that's the thing too about relationships. When people think about, like, a human relationship, I don't think most people think that took, like, five minutes to build. Right? Like, a relationship builds over time. But, also, when you are, like, investing in relationships because you also feel the exchange, that becomes easier than if you're doing it from a very transactional place. Like, if I'm just building a relationship to date with you today because all I want is your money, like, yeah, I'm gonna feel like if that takes a long time, there's no exchange for me. But if I'm building a relationship with you today because we both believe that communities are powerful and, like, you do that that way and I do that this way and who knows where that can take us from a community point of view. Or, like, you would assume that that is still in the process of being built. And so I think there is a lot of benefit, whether that's from, like, a marketing point of view, a sales point of view, an internal team building point of view that, like, how does the team feel about community building? Do we talk about community building? Do we look at it as if it's community building? How does our language contribute to that? I think there's a lot of opportunities for people to gain some knowledge about how other people are looking at this.

David Pugsley [00:43:05]:

I think that's a that's a really great point, actually, Tracy, because I think, you know, that was the one thing I did let it on, you know, on on on running that volunteer organization was was absolutely, you know, people were having those conversations. You know, how do we build a community? How do we how do we sort of, you know, get together as a community? And and, you know, we we we had some successes in that area, so I'm not so successful. But it's it's sort of like yeah. That that was the language. That was what we were talking about. Whereas, you know, in the corporate world, you never talk about that, do you?

Tracy Borreson [00:43:34]:

Right. You're like, go sell something, salesperson, and you're not like, how's your community feeling for you today?

David Pugsley [00:43:40]:

Right. And you might of course, you might talk about it in terms of your team, you know, within your little your little silo. Definitely, you know, we wanna know your team community is okay, but never, you know, outside the organization because, like, that's outside, isn't it? That's like

Tracy Borreson [00:43:57]:

Well, and I've worked in, like, client success. Right? Like, this is equally important in that arena. Like, you want your clients to feel like they're part of your organization. Right? Like, that's making it function as a community, not just making them feel like a paycheck.

Bertrand Godillot [00:44:16]:

So I just like to to to go back to something you just said about, you know so, I'm just thinking about, you know, if we if we go and and have a and have a chat with one of these sales directors, you know, who are doing the AV planning at the beginning of the year. How how would you sell the idea of building communities to, remove the the or at least, you know, get get the the hockey stick a little bit more, back back to the left hand side. You know, what what would be your, your main, your main argument to someone who is really not brave if in the sense that you described earlier? To

David Pugsley [00:45:03]:

my, argument about getting them on to, you know, to build a community, is that is that your question,

Bertrand Godillot [00:45:10]:

Yes. Yes.

David Pugsley [00:45:11]:

Yeah. I mean, I think, I the way I approach it, it's not always successful. But but the way I approach it is is, you know, to say, because people are curious about me and what I do and, you know, why I do it. So that kinda gives me that gives me the in for the for the conversation. And and, you know, depending on, like, how they are, I I I sort of just you know, I'm very upfront about what I do, why I do it, and why, you know, why it works. But I think people are scared, to your point earlier, Adam, about, you know, is it people are scared? I think they are scared. I think they are scared about breaking out of the mold and and doing something that is seen as as not mainstream. And that does take courage, doesn't it? So so I think so what I say to them is you don't have to be me.

David Pugsley [00:46:16]:

You can just be me. Please

Tracy Borreson [00:46:18]:

don't, actually. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

David Pugsley [00:46:19]:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Just be you. Just be you. And and, you know, just tell your story or, you know, just do what you do. You know? And and so I think that's that's kind of one way into it. But, of course, people have still got to do it's a bit like people who wanted you know, I wanted to be a concert pianist.

David Pugsley [00:46:41]:

There was no way I was gonna be a concert pianist because I never learnt the piano. But it's kinda like you gotta take that first step, haven't you? And and and that that's that's the most critical thing for people to do, take that first step. And it's trying to encourage them over that threshold into actually putting something onto, you know, onto a social media channel, just a little bit of something. And, you know, when you see it and I say to them, you know, if you do it, tell me, and I'll, you know, I'll I'll go and comment on it and like it and everything else, you know. And and and and when you see them do it, it's just like it's gold dust, isn't it? It's like, oh, wonderful. You know, that that person has actually stepped over that threshold and actually done it. But so many you know, that's one person in ten is that, you know, most most people

Tim Hughes [00:47:30]:

Or or one in a hundred.

David Pugsley [00:47:31]:

Yeah. Many. When you

Tim Hughes [00:47:32]:

think you're a few people that even you know, you've got a huge network and how few of those people you feel that you really know unless you actually met them. So so you you said about, fear. So is this a fear of breaking the rules, or is this a fear of being foolish and having people laugh at them? Because I think that the two are very different things, aren't they? One of them is your boss peering over your shoulder and saying you can't you can't post that sort of thing because it brings us into to disrepute, and the other is your friends pointing at you and laughing and going, you know, whatever it is you've done that you've put your heart and soul into. Yeah. Like like Tony from last week, writing his poetry, you know, what happens is everybody claps and says, wow, that's fantastic. What you've what everyone fears is gonna happen when they do that sort of thing is that everyone will say, well, that's that's crap. That's absolute rubbish. I don't wanna read that.

Tim Hughes [00:48:35]:

And that does

Tracy Borreson [00:48:35]:

Or that no one will say anything.

Tim Hughes [00:48:38]:

Yeah. Yeah. So so so so which of those which of those is it? Is it the fear of the the doing something wrong or the fear of being foolish that that prevents people from from doing these things?

David Pugsley [00:48:50]:

I I suspect it's a bit of both, isn't it? But, you know, I I think and and there's a there is a slight you know, I'm speaking as a man, and I think the women I talk to, there there is something you know, I think earlier you mentioned Tracy about or somebody mentioned about, you know, not appearing with makeup and things like that. There is something about appearing online as a woman, isn't there? And the and the different kind of, like, vibe that goes on with comments and goodness sakes, what else, that that you don't get as a man. You know? It it doesn't matter. But, you know, how I look does not matter, to to the universe, to me or to the universe. But but the but if you're a woman, then that is there is a slight there is a difference. You know? Acknowledge that. So so I think there's there's bravery, perhaps, there that that, you know, I I I don't need to worry about. And but there is also the breaking the rules because the rules are, you know, like, you know, we we all drive and drive around and you always, you know, keep to the side of the road or whatever, but it's kind of a key to the speed limit.

David Pugsley [00:50:07]:

You know, people there are norms, aren't there? I was listening to a program earlier about being naked in public. You know, there are norms, aren't there, that people aren't naked in public? And and that's the kind of, you know, that's the you know, so so any breaking the norms is always gonna be a real problem for people or or perception that they're gonna be breaking a norm. And and, you know, that's that's where the bravery comes in on that side, I think.

Adam Gray [00:50:32]:

Mhmm. Lovely.

Tracy Borreson [00:50:33]:

I think that's too I would just say, like, when it's in alignment with you, like, when you're really clear, like, this is what I would do, then it's easier. That doesn't make it easy. But I think a lot of times too, we're inundated by what people are telling us we should do. We should post this type of thing on social media. We should do this and we should do this. And then we feel like we don't want to because that's not what we would do. But if we there's a a lady who reached out to me, and she's like, I wanna do a post on authenticity. And she is researching authenticity.

Tracy Borreson [00:51:06]:

Like, you guys will see. But, like, that's her way of doing a post. That's not the wrong way. Is it my way? No. It's not my way, but that doesn't mean it's the wrong way. Right. Because that's how she would do it, and that's how she is doing it. And it changes the amount of posts and things that she does, but she's doing what she would do.

David Pugsley [00:51:28]:

Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:51:29]:

And therefore, it feels I mean, I think there's a lot of us involved in this this post project. And a lot of people are like, wow, you're putting a lot of work into this. And, like but she likes it. It's fun for her because that's how she wants to do it. And there's this, like, we forget that when if we're connected to our way, how we would say that, when we would say it, what we would say, if we would post it, if we wouldn't post it, and we allow that level of authenticity to be the driver in our social relationships regardless of whether that's virtual or not. It makes it easier. It doesn't take away the fear. It still takes bravery, but it makes it easier.

David Pugsley [00:52:12]:

Richard. Did you want?

Adam Gray [00:52:14]:

Well, I I I'm seeing it more sort of it's kind of etiquette really, isn't it? It's kind of what, what is, what when when you post, you know, you kinda look around and see what other people are doing, and you you clearly don't wanna sort of go in all guns blazing. And you you kinda need to read the room, is kind of how I would say it. And, and that's my sort of take on things and and and and push the boundaries a little bit, but not sort of not too excessively, too quickly really.

Bertrand Godillot [00:52:45]:

Alright, David. You've got you've got a friend. You've got a very good friend who says, and I'll take that as as the as the last comment. You do it very well, Pugs, connecting with people, being an your authentic self, and sharing a lens of how you see the world through your thoughts you share, yeah, your videos and the work you've done in your charity, volunteering work. And, of course,

David Pugsley [00:53:13]:

it went.

Bertrand Godillot [00:53:16]:

Thanks for that, Toni. Thanks for being with us today. David, this has been great. Where can we learn more? How can we, get in touch with you?

David Pugsley [00:53:26]:

So LinkedIn is my main channel. I am on Instagram as well, but, that that that tends to be a bit random. But but LinkedIn is my main random channel. So, search for, David Munsey and or feet wet Friday, and you'll probably come across me. Or Necky and Bugs as well.

Bertrand Godillot [00:53:45]:

Excellent. Perfect. Great. So, you know, we now have a newsletter. So don't miss don't miss an episode. Get the show highlights, be on the show insights and reminders of upcoming episodes. You may scan the the the the QR code on screen or just visit us at, digitaldownload.live/newsletter. On behalf of the panelist and to our guest, David, and our audience, Thank you all, and see you,

David Pugsley [00:54:19]:

next time.

Tim Hughes [00:54:20]:

Thanks, David. Thanks, Richard.

David Pugsley [00:54:21]:

Yes, sir. Thanks. Take care. Bye.

Bertrand Godillot [00:54:23]:

Thank you, Richard. Oops. Sorry.

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