This week on The Digital Download, we're diving deep into the transformative power of kindness in both our professional and personal lives with our special guest, Sarah Browning. As the founder of Time for Kindness and a seasoned communications professional, Sarah brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to the table. Her work with organizations and businesses to foster a culture of kindness has made a significant impact.  

Join us as we discuss questions like:

• How does kindness impact leadership effectiveness?

• Can kindness be taught, or is it an inherent trait?

• How do you measure the ROI of kindness initiatives?

• What are the common misconceptions about kindness in the workplace?

• How can kindness be integrated into company culture?

Sarah's insights into the power of kindness will challenge your assumptions and inspire you to embrace a new approach to success. As she puts it, "When you see the kindness in the world around you, you feel positive and hopeful."  

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• Sarah Browning, the founder of Time for Kindness and an expert in communication strategies.

This week's Host was -

• Bertrand Godillot, Founder and Managing Partner of Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of DLA Ignite,

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

• Tracy Borreson, Founder and CEO of TLB Coaching & Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite

Transcript of The Digital Download 2025-03-14

Bertrand Godillot [00:00:06]:

Good afternoon, good morning, and good day wherever you may be joining us from, and welcome to a new edition of the Digital Download, the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live. Now globally syndicated on tuning radio through ABGR, the world's number one business talk news and strategy radio network. Today, we're diving into the transformative power of kindness in both professional and personal lives with our special guests, Sarah Browning. As the founder of Time for Kindness and a seasoned communication professional, Sarah brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to the table. Her work with organizations and businesses to fast to foster a culture of kindness has made a significant impact. But before we bring Sarah on, let's go around the set and introduce everyone.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:07]:

While we're doing that, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend, ping them, and let them join us? We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience, and audience is highly encouraged. Tim, would you like to kick us off, please?

Tim Hughes [00:01:23]:

Yes. My name is Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO and cofounder of DLA Knight, famous for writing the book, Social Setting Techniques to Infants, Bias, and Changemakers. And welcome, everybody. Really excited about this. I love talking about kindness. Excellent. Thank you.

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:40]:

Tracy.

Tracy Borreson [00:01:42]:

Good morning, everyone. Tracy Borreson, founder of CLB Coaching and Events, a co partner of DLA Ignite. I mean, I'm all about authenticity and conversation and meaningful impact in marketing. And so kindness is something I think is very rarely considered as part of the equation, but very often received as part of the equation. So I'm really excited to get into the conversation today.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:10]:

Excellent. Thank you, Tracy. Adam?

Adam Gray [00:02:17]:

Whoops. Hello, everybody. I'm Adam Gray. I'm cofounder of DL Ignite. I'm Tim's business partner. And, this is gonna be a really interesting conversation, I think. I I think in my time of being in the workplace, we've seen a big shift, from purely measurable pounds, shillings, and pence, dollars, output kind of view to a more holistic view of of, employees' well-being and health, and and happiness always seems to have taken a back seat in that. And we ask the question, you know, are you happy at work? But, actually, how do we get to be happy at work? How do we get to be happy? How do we show happiness and and kindness and and and really make, work and and society an inclusive place? So if we have strategies for that, hopefully, that's the outcome we'll get.

Adam Gray [00:03:15]:

So I'm really looking forward to this. So thank you, Bertrand.

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:18]:

Yes. We are looking forward to this conversation. Myself, Bertrand Godillot, I am the founder and managing partner of Odysseus & Co, a very proud DNA Ignite partner. So as I said, this week on the digital download, we'll speak with Sarah Browning. Sarah's insight into the power of kindness will challenge your assumptions and inspire you to embrace a new approach to success. As she puts it, when you see the kindness in the world around you, you feel positive

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:49]:

and hopeful. Let's bring her on.

Tracy Borreson [00:03:54]:

Yay. Welcome, Sarah.

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:56]:

Welcome, Sarah.

Sarah Browning [00:03:57]:

Thank you.

Bertrand Godillot [00:03:58]:

Good afternoon and welcome.

Sarah Browning [00:04:00]:

Thank you.

Bertrand Godillot [00:04:01]:

Sarah, let's start by, having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you where you are today.

Sarah Browning [00:04:10]:

Sure. Yes. Thank you. And and thank you. You know, what an intro, and and really interesting to, be here to have this conversation with you. And, I I can talk about kindness all day long, so you you may well need to cut me off at some point. But yes. So I am a communications professional by by profession, by by training.

Sarah Browning [00:04:29]:

I have worked for, for easily half my life now in in in that that, that field. And I, have been working freelance as a as a communications consultant since 2010. I have worked a lot with not for profit organizations, charities, universities, local government, that kind of thing. And I'd always spoken about my clients as having, a vision of a a better world. And then I just four, five years ago now, I got to thinking, what what do you mean by that, Sarah? What what is better? And it was at that point that I realized how kindness is really important to me. And more than that, though, that there is lots of kindness in the world already. We just don't talk about it enough yet. And when I had that realization, I thought, okay, fine.

Sarah Browning [00:05:18]:

So so what can I do about that? What what do I bring to the party? And as a storyteller, that was kind of where I where I began. I thought, well, yeah, I can tell stories. I see kindness around me. I can, tell these stories. I can share these real life, real world examples. And the first year or so at the time, what has become time for clients program, in all honesty, I was kind of playing at it. It was 2021. So I think, you know, overall all bets were off, weren't they, for all of us at that point and and and so on.

Sarah Browning [00:05:46]:

But I spent the first year kind of sharing stories, and my my then teenage daughter showed me how to use Instagram, and I put it on there and and that kind of thing. And then actually, I had somebody get in touch with me who said, I've seen what you're doing. It's absolutely amazing. He he has mental health, challenges, and and he said, kindness of strangers has has literally saved me. And actually, when you're in that dark place, you cannot see it for yourself. So having something to turn to, has is really helpful. And it was at that point that I thought, yeah, this is this is too serious for me not to for me to count on playing. I still share stories.

Sarah Browning [00:06:25]:

I I have it's me and one other in my team. We share kinda stories at least one every day, and we we are not gonna run out. I'm constantly looking for new ones, so it's great when when people send in the stories. But that's one part of what we do. Another part is building, a network of kindness ambassadors. So this is kind of volunteers who sign up to say, yes, I'm gonna be part of your community. I will talk about kindness too. Because I think one of the things is, you know, this kindness is going on.

Sarah Browning [00:06:54]:

And as I said, we don't talk about it enough. So we all need to get more comfortable. And that's where the conversation is fantastic, that we are comfortable. We are talking on a a professional network, professional platform live about kindness, is is fantastic. And then the third part, is that I now run workshops and I do talks, to teach people the habits to notice what's there. Because what became apparent is that it comes fairly naturally to me, though not every day, I have to say. And, you know, the the I guess the kind of the world context of of what I'm doing, you know, it it does make it more challenging sometimes to to see kindness because that's not always what we hear about first or very rarely what we hear about first. So running these workshops and so on to teach people and those habits when it doesn't come naturally to them, has proven to be to be really powerful.

Sarah Browning [00:07:47]:

And and, you know, I I literally have people contacting me saying, this is changing my life. This is changing my world view. I'm always I I I I think what's really important to just make clear right at the start as well is I'm not about toxic positivity. So I'm not saying the bad stuff doesn't happen. Let's just look at the good. What I'm saying is we need more balance. Clearly, there's some awful stuff that goes on, but that's not the only story. That's not the only story of our world and and ourselves within it.

Sarah Browning [00:08:16]:

So, you know, if we can have more balance, then, it's better for us.

Bertrand Godillot [00:08:20]:

So Excellent. And you've got friends in the audience, by the way. Lovely. Do. So, you know, team like likes the the growth mindset with the yet. I agree. Yeah. Okay.

Bertrand Godillot [00:08:34]:

Sarah, let's start with a foundational question. Is kindness a sign of weakness in the business world?

Tracy Borreson [00:08:45]:

No.

Bertrand Godillot [00:08:47]:

Well, that's pretty straightforward.

Sarah Browning [00:08:49]:

I'm sorry.

Tim Hughes [00:08:50]:

But we can all go ham.

Sarah Browning [00:08:51]:

Absolutely. I

Tracy Borreson [00:08:53]:

would love to have, like, what started that? Because I know, like, Adam kinda mentioned in his intro that there was this, I don't know if it was like a focus on professionalism or what that made kindness seem like weakness. I don't know that, like, as people receiving kindness, we've ever experienced that as weakness. So I'm curious, Sarah,

Sarah Browning [00:09:16]:

if you have, like, explored that in terms of what even led to that kind of narrative existing in the professional arena. Yeah. It's really interesting, isn't it? Because because like you say, you know, when when you when you experience it, it it doesn't it doesn't feel weak at all. And I think kindness definitely has a reputation problem. And I think some of it comes you know, a lot of it comes from confusing kind with nice. And and actually, you know, there's nothing wrong with being nice, but nice is a bit is a bit more of a kind of surface surface level sort of, thing. And in terms of, I think, particularly in a business context, the the idea of so for example, you know, as a a reader, a manager, if you've got to have difficult conversations with people, then actually, being nice probably isn't helpful because that often looks like avoiding the topic, avoiding the conversation. Whereas actually you can have difficult conversations with kindness because it's about how you have that conversation and how you allow space for people to sort of process difficult things or, you know, the way the empathy that you bring into those conversations.

Sarah Browning [00:10:32]:

So I think some of of where that kind of weakness and fluffiness comes in is is that confusion and that lack of, I guess, understanding, maybe it's lack of training, even in terms of, you know, when you become a leader, how often are you actually trained to have those kinds of conversations maybe at all? And and if you are, then then is is kindness referenced in that kind of training that you receive? Probably not.

Adam Gray [00:11:03]:

So you talk about, kind of celebrating kindness, if you like, you know, and focusing on that. So so is this kind of like the real time equivalent of, journaling? Because I I I hear that that one of the things with journaling that you have to do, and I say I hear that because it's quite a difficult habit to build, is that at at the end of each day, you you write three things that are good that have happened today. And there might be, you know, major stuff, you know, I want a fantastic deal or my best friend has found out that he's not ill after all. Or it could be that it's minor stuff like, you know, I would very successfully made a great latte in the morning before I went out. But also that that you put some love back into the world. So you send a message to somebody saying, hi, Tim. I just wanted to say thank you very much for sharing that with me. I really enjoyed that, and I appreciate it.

Adam Gray [00:11:55]:

Because, actually, we all love to hear nice stuff, and it makes someone else's day a bit better. So so is that part of the same kind of mindset around this, or is this something different that you're talking about?

Sarah Browning [00:12:07]:

Yeah. I guess it's connected, isn't it? I I think, yeah, much like you, I've I've never, managed to sort of get into the discipline of journaling necessarily. But, I think, you know, people I know who do it, I think often as you've alluded to that, you know, the things that people are writing down probably are kind. You know, there is there is kindness in in a lot though, those kinds of things. And it certainly it becomes a positive, virtuous, virtual, whatever it is, that just circle kind of upwards, spiral. Because also what I'm finding through the work I'm doing is that once you do start noticing kindness in the world, and it might be a very tiny thing, you know, it might be, as you say, you know, somebody smiling, at a stranger in the street, or it could be a grand gesture, but there's a whole kind of range. Once you start noticing those things and, you whether you whether you journal it and write it down or not, or if you're if it's more of a sort of, you know, in your head or whatever, you, you notice more and more of them. And I think, you know, I I'm not a driver myself, but people will tell me, you know, if if if they are planning to buy a a red car, for example, suddenly you see red cars everywhere.

Sarah Browning [00:13:18]:

And it's and it's a very similar thing, you know, once you start noticing it. In the workshops I run, we have some really interesting conversations around what is kindness? What's the definition? What what what what and also the kind of what counts as kindness. And and and the reality is there is no single definition of kindness. There are a lot of similarities in definitions. So they're positive. They have an impact on on yourself or someone else. Kindness is active as well. Something something usually happens.

Sarah Browning [00:13:50]:

But there's no single definition. But then also the bit about what counts is is fascinating because people will say to me, but but that's just good manners. Or that I I I was just doing my job. And and actually, my own view is it doesn't have to be either or it can be good manners and kindness. You can be doing your job and it's doing it in a kind way. And my own feeling, and I guess this tucks back in, as into the to the mindset piece, is that actually if we if we sort of recognize that kindness and and seeing kindness and thinking of something in in those terms makes us feel better and makes us feel more positive, then why don't we call something kindness anyway? What what why kind of get into that slightly pedantic, oh, but it's just good manners. Actually, let's call it both. And then we get that positive feeling and that that uplift and all the other stuff that comes from it.

Tracy Borreson [00:14:45]:

Well, I think that is interesting because when you think about the concept of good banners, I've a lot of what manners are built on is kindness. There's also some things that matters are built on that are weird, but, like, a lot of them are I mean, I'm Canadian. Right? So let's frame that. And we open doors, and we apologize for things we when we bump into people. And, like, that for us is matters. And I think a lot of times, it's, like, intricately connected to kindness as well. But I would love to, like, hear a little more, Sarah, from this concept of, like we talked about mindset and, like, kind of the awareness and how we're paying attention to things and how much of kindness is, like, your beingness versus the thing you do. Because if I use opening a door for someone as as an example, right, like, that could be considered good manners.

Tracy Borreson [00:15:49]:

I can do that in a really angry way, and it may or may not be experienced by myself or someone else as kind. But, like, I remember when I I used to live in Vancouver and there was this homeless gentleman who would open the door to the Shoppers Drug Mart for everybody who walked by. And it was just, like, such a exchange of kindness. And so I I'd love to hear more about, like, the underlying beingness behind the doing, and whether what the relationship of that is with the experience of kindness.

Sarah Browning [00:16:26]:

Yeah. It's it's, I I think the the whole what what I one of the things that I think is is really interesting is there is a growing body of kind of academic research around kindness as well, which, is kind of demonstrating the positive impact, it has. And I think, oh, hang on. I'm just gonna go off on my own tangent for a minute there. But, so so in terms of that kind of impact it has on people, I think that it it can be again, some of that comes from your own life experiences, like you say. And I think one of the things that and and certainly one of the things that that that comes up that we sort of talk about in terms of when I when I do talks and and so on is that sometimes noticing kindness can be a sort of easy first step or an easier first step into this kind of world of kindness. Because clearly some people, you know, the the experience of their life has meant that, you know, they are not able to to to show kindness or or even to receive it, actually, sometimes because of, you know, things that have happened. But actually starting to notice what is going on around you in the world, is a is a sort of first in to that.

Sarah Browning [00:17:49]:

And I think also what what I what's happened and what I've heard from from people who follow the stories that I share and so on, there are, you know, examples of people saying, no. I do do that. I just hadn't thought about it as kindness. And again, I think there is something that that's probably quite fundamental then in terms of of kind of what you're you're doing, but the way you're thinking about it is different, and you've not kind of, necessarily framed it in that way. But once people do start to frame it in that way and again, I think, you know, we talked earlier about the the the weakness, the fluffiness side of it. Perhaps people are shying away, and I have no academic backup for this at all. There might be research out there. But, you know, perhaps they're shying away from it because they think, oh, it is weak.

Sarah Browning [00:18:38]:

It is fluffy. I don't want to kind of label it that way or think of it that way because I myself might and maybe this is the kind of being and doing thing as well is, you know, I I don't think of myself as a weak person, or I don't want to be perceived as a weak person. And, again, I think as we never get older, some somewhere along the way, we seem to lose that kind of, belief in the strength of kindness. So I've done some interesting things. I've I've run, community, events and things like that. I've been at community events, where I've had more opportunity to talk to kids about kindness. And I'll I'll be there, like, building my wall of kindness, collecting stories. And I'll say I remember one little girl in particular sticks in my mind.

Sarah Browning [00:19:21]:

She's probably about eight, something like that. And I said, oh, I'm collecting stories of kind people. Do you know any? And she said, yes. I said, oh, no. Who? Me. And there was no and and she was right. You know, the example she then gave gave was some sort of playground incident, something that had happened. And and and it would just really struck me and has stayed with me that sort of ownership that she had, of being kind.

Sarah Browning [00:19:46]:

And and why shouldn't she? Well, you know, it's it's it's kindness is something which has this positive impact on the giver, the receiver, and the witness. So it's an it's a fantastic thing. Why why do we get embarrassed about it? Where where have we learned that? And and, you know, I guess, to some extent, the work I'm doing is unlearning that or helping people to to unlearn some of that.

Adam Gray [00:20:07]:

Potentially, though, the thing with with kindness is that it it really gives an immediate payback. So, you know, I'm gonna be nice to you. That makes your day better. It means that you have a better evening, which means that you're happier tomorrow, which means you come into work and you enjoy yourself. And, you know, this is this is a strategic shift in how the person that is the recipient and indeed the giver of the happiness okay. Kindness. It's a strategic change, and it has long term benefits. However, solving problems is a tactical short term thing.

Adam Gray [00:20:46]:

So we're often drawn from the the long term benefit back to the short term benefit. Well, that's all very well, but you did this wrong, and we need to address that. And, you know, I haven't got time for that, and I haven't got time for your nonsense. You need to get on and do this. And I think a lot of it is about where you choose to focus your attention. And I I remember watching, it was a an an illustration of of exactly this that you see the things that you focus on. So, the the it was a video of somebody panning around a room, and the question was, can you count how many red things there are on the shelves in the room? So as the camera slowly pans around, you go there there's there's a vase and there's a typewriter and there's a radio and there's a book and there's the and you you okay. I got 17 or whatever it was.

Adam Gray [00:21:38]:

And so I'm I'm better than you. I got 17. But the question then is, how many green things were there in the room? And the answer is, well, I have no idea because I wasn't looking for them. Yeah. And that's the point, isn't it? You know, the point is that if you are if you are looking at at, you know, the glass being half empty, you can't see the water in the glass. And that's very dangerous for everybody, isn't it?

Sarah Browning [00:22:00]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I completely agree. And and that fundamentally is is is where where I've sort of time for kindness came from really was that concern that and and, you know, as part of what I was thinking about, well, all of that stuff I I set up at the beginning, I was thinking, well, you know, what what is the barrier? What is what is stopping kindness? And very often, it is is some kind of fear, of the weakness side of things. But I think you're actually right. It is also people just, you know, we're busy. We we we haven't considered it as something to to put any focus on or to look out for. But it does become a positive thing that builds on itself once you start doing it.

Sarah Browning [00:22:40]:

And I think it's it what's what's interesting so one of the stories that we had very early on sent into Time for Kindness was a story about a supermarket, a shopping mall rather. We don't call them malls here doing shopping center. Shopping walls for for you, Tracy. A shopping center and and the doors, most of the doors were broken. There was only one set that that were operational, and and there was an older lady trying to come through with a with a little walker there, and and people were streaming in and and she couldn't get out. And then somebody my the my friend, the person who sent in the story did stop, and and she did come out. And, it would be really easy, and often a lot of people do focus on those that didn't stop. And then you get into the well, of course, you know, typical.

Sarah Browning [00:23:26]:

No one stops these days. But someone did. And so if we choose to make and it and it yeah. Absolutely. It has to be to start with, certainly, a conscious choice, a conscious decision to switch our attention. But the more we practice it, the more it just becomes a habit that we we look at we notice that one person, and we we are positive about that, and we we build kind of from from that base. But it does have to be, like I said, that, you know, you if it doesn't come naturally to you, then there's a there's a kind of conscious decision to to start actively looking for those things. And they are there.

Sarah Browning [00:24:02]:

There are so many, of examples out there. Once once you start noticing, it's hard to stop.

Bertrand Godillot [00:24:09]:

We we have a comment from, from Adi, and, that will raise a question on my side. It's kindness is of intelligence, and intelligence is of humility. So, I certainly can't agree more. But the you know, the question is, can kindness be taught, or is it something that is just inherent?

Sarah Browning [00:24:29]:

Yeah. I I think it's both. Can it be both?

Tim Hughes [00:24:32]:

I had a bit of a cop out.

Sarah Browning [00:24:33]:

I don't know. Yeah. I I certainly think people can can learn to one one of the things that I think is is is what that we're trying to do with with time for kindness and the stories that we share. As I said, we're not making any of them up. We're getting lots sent in. What we're trying what we're trying to do is make sure that we have examples in lots of different areas and lots of different, scenarios. So in workplaces and get a lot coming from supermarkets, actually, public transport, friends, family, you know, there's a real range. And what I don't focus on teaching people to be kind.

Sarah Browning [00:25:13]:

That that's not what I'm I'm here to do, but I think it is a byproduct of the work that I do because people as I said earlier, I there are people who are looking at it thinking, oh, I do that. I haven't thought about it as kindness. I will now. But there are also people who are thinking, oh, I could do that. I haven't thought about that. That would be quite easy for me to replicate. So I I think there's there's a definite potential for learning. And I think some some of where that is coming from is when, you know, the a kind of a step before that is recognizing kind of what kindness is, why it matters, what difference it makes to you and the people around you.

Sarah Browning [00:25:53]:

And then there's that sort of learning experience then to, you know, we're we're all creative individuals at some level. You know, we can all come up with ideas and ways of being kind. But if for some reason it's tricky for you at the moment or you're you're just not that way inclined, then there are resources. And, obviously, I put a plug in for time for kindness there, but there are others as well where you can go and just kind of teach yourself, well, what does that look like? What what might I actually do in any given scenario if I wanted to be kind? So I think it's it's a bit of both, I think. So so I

Tracy Borreson [00:26:29]:

think it's just

Sarah Browning [00:26:29]:

Have you cut

Adam Gray [00:26:30]:

a time out for this? Because, an example that I am I I try to be nice to people. That's what I try to do. So, when I go to the supermarket and, I get exceptional service from somebody, I ask to speak to the manager, and the manager always walks up with a long face like, oh my god. What's what's gonna happen here? Because they know what's gonna happen. Someone's gonna complain about the fact they've got no peaches or whatever it is. And I always say, you know, Janice or Dave or whoever on the checkout, oh, yes. Yeah. I just wanna say absolutely amazing member of staff and a real credit to you.

Adam Gray [00:27:16]:

Thank you very much indeed. And you can see the complete change in their body language. However, I don't do that as much as I could because, invariably, I'm running into the supermarket and running back out again. So so how can we consciously carve time out to do this stuff? It was for me to say, oh, thanks, Tim. I really appreciate that. It's very kind of you to say that takes longer than me saying, cheers, Tim. And there's a big difference between the two. Even though these are words that get used every day, there's a big difference between how those land.

Adam Gray [00:27:46]:

So so how can we we make the time for that?

Sarah Browning [00:27:49]:

Yeah. I think it's it's I mean, in your own example, you know, the first bit comes into my head is that's brilliant. Next time you do that, can you tell me so that I can put it on my type of cardinals?

Adam Gray [00:28:01]:

Of course. Of course.

Sarah Browning [00:28:03]:

Because I'm constantly as I say, I'm not gonna run out, but I I constantly need a new source. There is something in there for me about, yes, sometimes that the the the kindness the way to show the kindness is to get the managers to come out. And and by the way, isn't it sad that as you say, they they come out with the expectation that it's gonna be bad news. So I think just by doing that, you are helping to change the way that we operate in the world. You know, there will be people who who have seen you do that, you know, perhaps they're now waiting in the queue that somewhere will think, oh, yeah. I might do that next time or I could do that. So so there's a learning thing. There is also, I think, that that you don't it doesn't always have to take that long.

Sarah Browning [00:28:46]:

So another way of doing that would be actually to say to the person on the till as they've as they're putting your stuff through, oh, thank you. This this is really good service. So, you know, it doesn't every time have to to take up more time. Yeah. And and I think you you hit the nail on the head there as well when you said about the kind of consciously carving out time because it doesn't necessarily take longer to say the the longer thing rather than just cheers, Tim. But what it does take is the, oh, I'm consciously gonna say it differently. And again, you know, we are very trainable. So so the more we practice, the more we do that.

Sarah Browning [00:29:24]:

And, yes, it will take longer to start with then, but it it once you kind of get into the habit and it it will just become second nature. I think the other thing which is is is huge for me in a lot of this is that we do have this idea that quicker is always better. And we are always so so constantly trying to, you know, do stuff. And maybe this comes back to your your point, Tracy, about the kind of being and doing and and and so on. That that we we do need to make choices about what is most important, either here in this this instance or in our lives generally, actually. You know, what what is more important is one of the reasons that I believe kindness is powerful is because it connects us as human beings. So even in those very little short, interactions, there is, you know, a a a moment where we have that kind of human connection. And we have to get better at saying, yes, That is important.

Sarah Browning [00:30:27]:

That is worth taking a bit more time. I know it's not possible all the time, and I know I I'm very aware that, you know, I I come at this from a position of privilege as well. So, you know, it's not always possible. But I think we we we do need to to kind of have those discussions within ourselves or maybe with each other, maybe both. But to kind of think about, well, what do we value here? You know, it is about what we're noticing, but it is also about what are we valuing and what is, you know, from from you know, and we're all gonna have a different answer to that. We're all gonna have a different line where where that comes. But again, I don't think that we very often take time to think about that. We're so in the the, the moment of, of kind of running to, to stand still very often don't have, don't take that time to, to think about those

Tracy Borreson [00:31:17]:

things. I'd love to like share an example that's coming up for me because I was with, we were with some friends at the swimming pool. And so like, yes, we're supervising children. So technically we're doing something. But like my friend and I were just standing there chatting in the pool. And then this elderly lady was trying to get in and she was clearly having a hard time and needed help if she was going to get in. And so my friend Megan walked over and then another person joined her and they helped this lady into the pool. And I was just standing there and I was thinking like, well, I like, that's something I could do.

Tracy Borreson [00:31:57]:

But then also something that, like, comes up for me is there's things that we see that we, like, wanna choose to contribute to. And there's also things that we see that maybe are not on our, like, top set of things. So, like, then me and I don't know the proximity of that event to this next event, but we had this, like, big windstorm. And I go for a walk in the morning and almost all of the garbage bins were blown over. And I was like, well, I could just lift up the garbage bins as I walk by. Right? Like, it doesn't even take any more time. I'm here. I and and I remember thinking in my head, I don't even know that these are going to not blow over again, but this is something I can do that I feel like is helpful for people.

Tracy Borreson [00:32:47]:

And it's helpful for people who don't have to do it themselves. It's helpful for the garbage pickup collectors. Right? Like, and even if only one of them stands up, then like but it was just something I saw and I I don't, I think we also get caught up in our brains and like what we should do from a kindness perspective or what we're quote unquote supposed to do. Like everybody's supposed to pick up the garbage. Everybody's supposed to help the elders lead. Everybody's supposed to say thank you every time they get a really good customer experience. And the thing is, is that there's a lot of us. So if like we were all doing the thing that we were like drawn to do from a kindness perspective, then like, that's a lot of kindness and it's because you saw it.

Tracy Borreson [00:33:37]:

It's not because you were supposed to. And I always think, like, I think about that pool scenario quite often. Cause I was like, kindness got to exist in that scenario. And it wasn't actually my responsibility to be the one who offered the service, but I could notice the kindness. I can bring that back into my awareness of like, what am I seeing? How can I contribute to the the kindness coming alive in the world? But that there's not, like, one specific way that I'm supposed to do that in order to make that happen.

Sarah Browning [00:34:14]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And and and I love that, you know, there are a lot of us because you're right. You know, it's it's again, it's that it's that kind of community connection kind of thing. You know, we don't all have to do all the things. And so, yeah, it's it is a balance. And and again, you know, this idea that it's it's not true that we are all either completely kind or completely unkind. Actually, we all have a bit of both in us, and it will depend on on all sorts of factors, time that we have at that moment in time, other things we've got going on, kindness to ourselves.

Sarah Browning [00:34:54]:

Actually, you know, you might just not want have wanted to go and help an elderly person. And that's okay because she wasn't stuck on the side of the pool. You saw that she somebody was being kind, and and, you know, the end result was she she got to do what she wanted to. So I think we we need to try and avoid getting ourselves so tied up in our heads with it that as you say, kind of nothing nothing happens. And and there there is that coming back to the conversation that sometimes comes up about what counts as kindness. One of the things that people will say to me is, you know, these kind of social media influencers who are, you know, filming themselves, giving money to a homeless person or or doing something like that. Does that is that really kindness? Does that count? And there is definitely a line somewhere. And and for me, I think it's about the kind of intent and or cynicism that that that comes comes into it.

Sarah Browning [00:35:51]:

And, you know, again, you know, you you're not helping that person in the pool that, you know, there's not an intent to be unkind. It's just an observation of of a situation. So, yeah, I think we kind of need to give ourselves a bit of a break sometimes because actually being kind to ourselves is also important. And sometimes, actually, they're not doing something and giving yourself a bit of time, a bit of pause. That's important too. So, yeah, I don't think I've come up with an answer particularly there. But No. But but I think I think,

Adam Gray [00:36:23]:

you know, what what you were saying there is is really, is really important. So, Bill Gates gives loads of money to charity. That's not necessarily a selfless job because he gets a huge amount of personal pride and adoration for doing that. On the flip side of that, there are people like Keanu Reeves and the late George Michael that gave huge amounts of charity, or huge amount of money to charity, and on the proviso that nobody would say that they had given the money. However, the fact remains that whether you like the taxation policies or not that have enabled people to get as rich as Bill Gates, the fact remains that it's better for him to give it to charity than not. Yeah. And and I think that there's there's there's an element of this, isn't there, that that I'm very kind to you. The only people that know about that are you and me because it's a it's a one to one thing.

Adam Gray [00:37:24]:

But if I'm kind to you in a public environment, then who knows how far that may travel, and it's better to be kind than it is to be nasty. And I know it's not binary, but, you know, there there's there's kind and there's unkind. And, actually, if every interaction we try to make kind, and if there's a win for me in the short term, great, but that shouldn't be my motivation for doing it. It should just be because I want to make the world a little bit better a place as a result of having taken that action. So I I think that that, you know, nice or kind or good is better than unkind or nasty and bad. And, actually, that's okay, isn't it?

Sarah Browning [00:38:05]:

Yeah. And and, actually, you know, you you said that around, you know, having a positive impact on yourself shouldn't be my motivation or myself shouldn't be my motivation. But, actually, why not? What what what my my view is it it you know, as long as it is a win win and a a genuine win win situation, why why shouldn't I do it? It's because I know I'll get something positive from it as well. So, again, you know, we we we kind of tie ourselves up in knots, I think, don't we? But, it is, you know, the the the the the research shows that there is a positive impact on giver, receiver, and witness for kindness. That it's almost impossible for there not to be any kind of positive even if the positive impact is is is just you feeling pleased with yourself because you did something or feeling smug or or whatever it might be. And so, you know, that's okay. I think I think it's as long as as you said, you know, it's that kind is better than unkind. So it's when there starts to be some damage that it it becomes more of an issue.

Sarah Browning [00:39:08]:

And, again, that's not binary or black and white to see either.

Adam Gray [00:39:11]:

No. But there's there's also the legacy, isn't there? So if we come back to the the person working on the checkout at the supermarket again, and I say to I say to your manager, I dealt with Sarah. She's absolutely fantastic. That's great. And maybe the manager says, well, she got another commendation, so we she gets another £10 to spend in store on her shopping or whatever. It may be that I say it direct to you, and, you feel pleased about the fact that you'd put a little bit of extra effort into our interaction, and maybe the people around hear that. But I think if you're nice in your interaction and I punish you for that, you know, don't you dare speak to me. You're less likely to do it again, and that makes the world a worse place.

Adam Gray [00:39:54]:

If, however, I reward you for it, it maybe will make you do it again or it maybe will just not be a disincentive to you doing it again. And I think a a a lot of this, you said at the beginning about how the the, you know, you want every interaction to be a kind one and it's not there yet. And, Kim commented on that saying yet being the positive fit. And, actually, if all of us are just mindful of this at every one of our interactions, you know, can I say this in the way that makes me feel best, or can I say this in a way that makes us feel best? Actually, that's that's a pretty good viewpoint to go into things with, isn't it?

Sarah Browning [00:40:34]:

Yeah. And, actually, the the the yet bit for me is about kindness is already happening a lot, and we don't talk about it enough yet. And I think once we do, then we will get more into what you're saying there in terms of us all becoming more kind of aware of of what is already happening, you know, and I think that's that is another thing where people get a bit kind of reticent about it, a bit kind of held back because they think, oh, well, if I'm, you know, all all I'm hearing is is negativity and and and so on. And in fact, a good sort of area to that I think illustrates this particularly is around leadership and the stories that we hear at the certainly at the moment. But I think more long term, this has always been the case. The leaders we hear about very often tend to be the kind of what I call the scary monster model of leadership. And therefore, anyone who is coming into leadership in particular or who wants to lead in a different way, I I worry that that it becomes, you know, it perpetuates itself because they look around and think, well, so how do I be a leader? How do I succeed as a leader? And and if the stories they're hearing about and what they can see are those negative types, then I either they're going to think, oh, well, that's that's how you do it. So I will have to push aside my my natural affinity with being kind and and treating people well.

Sarah Browning [00:42:01]:

Or they will go, leadership not for me then. And we lose those people. Whereas there are lots of leaders, and I I I I know this because I am going to be launching a campaign in a month or two where I'm gonna share stories specifically of kind leaders because, I want to show those those examples. So look, they are there, and I am guessing people sending examples in. I'm also getting people saying to me, oh, I can't think of any. I haven't, you know, I've worked for a kind leader. So don't don't get me wrong. Again, you know, there are plenty of leaders who are not doing it with kindness.

Sarah Browning [00:42:35]:

But but those examples are there, and we need we need to talk about them more to inspire others and to and to encourage others, I think, as well. Because I you know, I I'm I'm even this well, who knows? With the scary monsters. But but, I mean, even the ones who aren't leading with kindness, it may well but, you know, they're they're not gonna be uniformly unkind people. But there is there is a sort of narrative we have around around how to lead that that means that that they think, okay. Well, you know, maybe they're kind in their private life, and then they're they're different at work. And that that's a whole bigger question as well. But

Adam Gray [00:43:13]:

I'm just tired. I've met I've

Bertrand Godillot [00:43:14]:

met many many leaders, Sarah, who were, starting tough conversations with that, really outstanding sentence. It's not personal. Of course, it is personal. And and back to the the the comment you were making on cynicism, I think, the question is really, and also back to what what you were just saying, you know, how how can you create, as a leader, a a culture of kindness in your organization? Is it, you know, do you have in your practice examples of, ways forward?

Sarah Browning [00:43:55]:

Yeah. Well, so I've I've said earlier about this. There's lots of academic research, and I think one of the one of the academic things that that had jumped out of me I'm I'm looking down because I have a cheat sheet of my my studies written down because I can never remember more in my head. But, there was a study done by the Harvard Business Review, that showed that leaders who express kindness found difficult conversations and providing uncomfortable feedback easier when they claim to have to do them. And it was to do with they had built through through kindness. They had built up, positive relationships with their team that they then had to sort of have those difficult conversations with. So, you know, I think that that's a really useful example of why it matters and why why it's worth doing. And and I think, you know, some of the kindness, in terms of kind of creating that environment for for your team.

Sarah Browning [00:44:50]:

Examples, I guess, are things like taking it's a lot of what we've already talked about really in in in sort of taking into that leadership context. So taking the time to consciously think about what have my team been working on, giving them credit for the things that they they have actually done, whether that actually is an achievement of something that they have done or a recognition of actually something didn't go quite so well, but but encouraging that kind of positive open, conversation, genuine positive, genuine open conversation. Like you said, it's it's not the oh, well, it's not it's not personal. Well, actually, it is. In terms of the difficult side of things, and there there's a, there's a blog on my website, which is a really popular one, which is is written by a leader who has led through, a lot of change, such as new structures and those kinds of things. And they've said they've kind of explained in this blog the kinds of things they did. People still had to leave. People still, you know, lost their their jobs.

Sarah Browning [00:45:55]:

But the way it was done was was done in a much more kinder way than than is perhaps what was the experience. And, again, a lot of that was about empathy. So it was about saying I I mean, you know, knowing this isn't personal, but also recognizing that saying that is not helpful and recognizing that it will feel personal. It is personal to that person who is thinking, how am I going to feed my children? Or how what am I gonna, you know, pay my mortgage, that kind of thing. It is personal to them. Therefore, say it's not personal whilst perhaps technically true. Although there is the cynicism, it isn't always true. But in even in a a situation, you know, where well, while technically true, it is not kind to say that.

Sarah Browning [00:46:45]:

And at what is kind is to, often, it's about time, and it comes back to what we were talking about earlier. It's it's the making carving out some time to process what's happening. And I think some of this kinda ties back in into my communications work as well because it's around leaders often and as a in a kind of restructure, situation. Leaders will often have spent quite a bit of time in those meetings where you've talked it all through, you've looked at the numbers, you've kind of probably planned different scenarios, all of that kind of stuff. And then, you come out and go, this is the change. And and, actually, your your people then have not had that time to kinda process what what's happening. Now I'm not saying you you should involve them necessarily in in those kind of planning out scenarios that you've had to do as leaders. That is part of the responsibility of leadership.

Sarah Browning [00:47:44]:

But what I am saying is thinking about where can we factor in some time for them to process rather than just kind of put it on them and then expect them to move on to the next stage straight away. So a lot of it is empathy. A lot of it is and and and in my communications work, also my kind of work, I used to talk about putting yourself in your audience's shoes, and I have changed that because it isn't about what would you think if you were them. It's about what what is it like for them? What is the experience like in in their you know, from their perspective? So, you know, I think at leaders again need to get more comfortable with with that kind of thinking.

Bertrand Godillot [00:48:26]:

We've got a comment from Ali who says, you have to lead to be followed. Many times the fireplace, give me heat and I'll kiss you with which, is, is a nice comment. Interesting.

Sarah Browning [00:48:41]:

Yeah. It's a good way to put it. Good analogy.

Tracy Borreson [00:48:44]:

I wonder if things that go ahead, Dan.

Tim Hughes [00:48:48]:

No. I was gonna Sarah, so you have this, you do this thing where you collect kindness where people can write in, can't they, about kindness?

Sarah Browning [00:48:57]:

Yes.

Bertrand Godillot [00:48:58]:

Correct. About that.

Sarah Browning [00:48:59]:

Correct. Yes. So I yeah. I I am always on the search for stories. As I say, I'm not gonna run out of any. We are sharing at at least one a day. So, through our website, we have a tell your story form, on on our website where we just ask people to very simply say, what was the kindness that you witnessed or you were involved in or you received? Very often, what people tell me about is kindness they have received rather than kindness they have given, which I think is fascinating. Because I think, again, it's back to that sort of slightly embarrassed, don't wanna show off kind of thing.

Sarah Browning [00:49:33]:

But, you know, let's own our our kindness. And we just very simply ask people to, yeah, give us some details kind of what what went on. And, if they have a photo to accompany it, that is also useful because, obviously, we're putting it on social media. My my poor family, anytime my daughter tells me anything vaguely that's kindness related, she will I, you know, I will say to her, did you get a photograph? But, yeah, we don't have to have a photograph. But, yeah, just examples. And and, you know, like I've said, I I do run quite a broad sort of definition of kindness. And so, really, you know, if you if you experienced it or witnessed it as an example of kindness, I don't have a sort of checklist of whether it counts or not. I I I will will use that.

Sarah Browning [00:50:20]:

And, again, the reason I'm doing that is so that we have this constant, evolving series of kind of stories so that I'm just showing people this is here, this is happening. And and if you notice it, you will feel better. And if you feel better and and the reason I know people feel better is because they they do come to me and say, really like what you're doing. It makes me feel positive. It makes me feel hopeful in a world that isn't always giving us that at the moment. And then when we feel better and and and we feel like that, you know, we perform better, whatever that means, whether that's kind of an individual thing or for an organization, for a business, you know, if you're performing better in that context.

Tim Hughes [00:51:02]:

But Where can we find this, Sarah?

Sarah Browning [00:51:04]:

So it's on my website, which is timeforkindness.co.uk. And we're also on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn, but the the website gives you the links to all of that.

Tim Hughes [00:51:16]:

Sorry, Tracy.

Tracy Borreson [00:51:18]:

Oh, I was just like I mean, I'm in marketing. So I'm thinking about the, like, conversation about the influencers. And one of the things that is interesting for me is that it's kind of two components. Right? So there's the cynicism of, like, why are you doing this? Are you doing this just for publicity versus the authenticity, which is I wanna do this and I'm publicizing it because maybe someone else will do it too. And if two people are doing it, then that's better than one. And so it's it's just interesting for me. Again, driving back to, like, your why behind how why you're doing that. If from a marketing perspective, people are watching this and trying to take away, okay.

Tracy Borreson [00:52:03]:

Like, I'm gonna be kind, and this is how we're gonna structure it into our marketing program. Like, that's not like, personally, I would say that that doesn't count because it's not, like, what you would do. But if we can, like, start to notice and then tie that funnel that into what we would do, what does kindness look like for me? What does kindness look like for us? What does it that feels different for all people and all these different things. And, again, I think it also allows for those, like, multi dimensions of kindness, which is what's gonna make kindness actually permeate in more areas. Right? We don't need every single person at the swimming pool to help the lady into the pool. Right? We don't. But we do need one to, like, oh, that ball is kinda getting away from those kids, so I'm gonna just, like, toss it back to them. Right? Like, if if we're tapped into that, like, this is what I would do.

Tracy Borreson [00:52:56]:

This is what kindness means to me. This is how I experience kindness. I think that is the secret to combat the cynicism around kindness, because I do think when it feels authentic, people interpret it are more likely to interpret it as authentic anyway.

Sarah Browning [00:53:14]:

Yes. Yeah. I think you're right. I agree.

Bertrand Godillot [00:53:18]:

Excellent. Sarah, this has been really great. Thank you so much. Where can we find you? Where where can we learn more?

Sarah Browning [00:53:25]:

Yes. So, the website is timeforkindness.co.uk, and that has the link through to our social media. It has stories. It has blogs, all all of that that stuff. And I've heard Sarah Browning. I'm on LinkedIn. So, come along and and follow me there. I I I talk about a mixture of kindness and communication.

Sarah Browning [00:53:44]:

It's all about connecting human beings. So, I I do I do enjoy connecting with people, so please do.

Bertrand Godillot [00:53:50]:

Excellent. Perfect. Thank you so much. We now have a newsletter. Don't miss an episode. Get the show highlights and behind the show insights and reminders of upcoming episodes. You may scan the QR code on screen or visit us at digitaldownload.live/newsletter. On behalf of the panelists and to our guests, Sarah, and to our audience, thank you all and see you next time.

Sarah Browning [00:54:21]:

Thank you for having me.

Tim Hughes [00:54:23]:

Thanks, Sarah.

Bertrand Godillot [00:54:24]:

Thank you.

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