This week on The Digital Download, we’re addressing critical barriers to equity in the tech industry. From the concept of "covering" to the challenges of allyship, we’ll explore why current diversity initiatives often fall short and what it takes to drive real change. Our guest, Cohan Leon Daley, Founder of Equity in Tech Group, will share insights from his journey as a first-generation British Jamaican and his work in transforming organizational cultures.

Join us as we tackle pressing questions like:

* What is "covering," and why does it undermine workplace culture?

* How can organizations move beyond performative allyship?

* What are the root causes of the lack of DEI representation in tech?

* How do we create systems that genuinely support authenticity?

Cohan brings a wealth of experience from his work as a DEI advocate and leader in the tech space. His practical insights and lived experiences offer a compelling roadmap for organizations looking to embrace diversity, equity, and inclusion at a deeper level.

We strive to make The Digital Download an interactive experience. Bring your questions. Bring your insights. Audience participation is highly encouraged!

This week we were joined by our Special Guest -

• Cohan Leon Daley, Founder of Equity in Tech Group

This week's Host was -

• Rob Durant, Founder of Flywheel Results, a proud DLA Ignite partner

Panelists included -

• Tim Hughes, CEO & Co-founder of DLA Ignite,

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

• Bertrand Godillot, Managing Partner, Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner, and

• Tracy Borreson, Founder and CEO of TLB Coaching & Events, a proud partner of DLA Ignite

Transcript of The Digital Download 2024-11-29

Rob Durant [00:00:02]:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of the Digital Download, the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live. Now globally syndicated on TuneIn Radio through IBGR, the world's number one business talk, news, and strategy radio network. Today, we're discussing why allyship is just the beginning. We have a special guest, Cohan Leon Daley, to help us with the discussion. Cohan brings a wealth of experience from his work as DEI advocate and leader in the tech space. His practical insights and lived experiences offer a compelling road map for organizations looking to embrace diversity, equity, and inclusion at a deeper level. But before we bring Cohan on, let's go around the set and introduce everyone.

Rob Durant [00:01:02]:

While we're doing that, why don't you in the audience reach out to a friend? Ping them and have them join us. We strive to make the digital download an interactive experience, and audience participation is highly encouraged. With that, let's start introductions. Tim, would you kick us off, please?

Tim Hughes [00:01:25]:

Thank you. Welcome, everybody. My name is Tim Hughes. I'm the CEO and cofounder of DLA Knight, and I'm famous for writing the book, social selling techniques to influence buyers and change makers.

Rob Durant [00:01:36]:

Excellent. Thank you very much, and welcome. Bertrand.

Bertrand Godillo [00:01:41]:

Hi, everyone. My name is Bertrand Godillo. I am the founder and managing partner of Odyssey and Co. , a very proud DLA Ignite partner, and I'm so glad it's Friday.

Rob Durant [00:01:54]:

Amen to that. Thank you. Tracy.

Tracy Borreson [00:01:58]:

Hello, everyone. Good morning. Tracy Borreson from TLB Coaching and Events, your friendly neighborhood marketers where we help people do marketing. Right? Also a proud partner of DLA Ignite, and I am, like, super excited for this conversation today. I expect to learn much that I can hopefully take away and bring back to the world.

Rob Durant [00:02:20]:

Fantastic. Thank you. Adam.

Adam Gray [00:02:24]:

Hello, everybody. Good afternoon. I'm Adam Gray. I'm cofounder of DLA Ignite, so Tim's business partner. And, like Tracy, very much looking forward to, today's event.

Rob Durant [00:02:36]:

Excellent. And myself, I'm Rob Durant. I am founder of Flywheel Results. We help start up scale, and I too am a proud DLA Ignite partner. As I said, this week on the digital download, we'll speak with Cohan Leon Daly, founder of the Equity in Tech Group. He will share insights from his journey as a first generation British Jamaican and his work in transforming organizational cultures. Let's bring him on. Cohan.

Tim Hughes [00:03:09]:

Hey, Cohan.

Rob Durant [00:03:10]:

Good morning and welcome. Cohan, we've suddenly lost your audio.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:03:17]:

Nope. I was on mute.

Rob Durant [00:03:18]:

Ah, there we go.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:03:20]:

I'm actually a little bit more organized. This is my 3rd podcast in about 2 weeks. My first one, I was using my AirPods. All for quality. But now I have a mic. I have a headset. I have a mute button. I should be crystal crystal clear.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:03:34]:

Fantastic.

Tracy Borreson [00:03:35]:

As long as you're not on mute.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:03:37]:

Yeah. Right. Exactly. Absolutely. I was I was hoping during, COVID, I was actually gonna get a T shirt saying you you're new. Because I say it to my teams constantly, but I never got allowed to doing it. But there's definitely someone out there. She definitely she definitely create that team.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:03:52]:

It'll work. Oh, that's so 2020. Yeah. It's it's old school now. Right? Exactly.

Tracy Borreson [00:03:59]:

Still, we're doing it.

Bertrand Godillo [00:04:00]:

Yes. Yes.

Rob Durant [00:04:03]:

Cohan, let's start by having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you to where you are today.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:04:11]:

Sure. So I guess I'll start with with Equity and Tech Group, really. I was made redundant earlier on this year in February for the 5th or 6th time. And I realized that, actually, you know, where am I going in my career? What am I doing? And I guess I was driving or pushing for title, for salary, and those types of benefits without actually feeling any con any contentment or any happiness. So the more I grew, the more I got higher and more senior, got to board level looking after entities or countries, closing 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars, and felt absolutely nothing at all. Unfortunately, enough to be in the Salesforce ecosystem, and their talent alliance and careers cohort approached me and said, look. We're gonna do a black cohort for the first time, which is when they get underprivileged groups the opportunity to get into tech through certifications, coaching, and mentoring. I was like, great.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:05:10]:

I'll run that cohort for you. I did that, and it's a pro bono gig. And I got more from that than anything I've done in my whole career. So all of a sudden, something went off and was like, wow. I found my why. I actually know what gets me out of bed in the morning. It's not money. It's not a title.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:05:25]:

It's actually helping people. It's helping people from groups that look like me, where I've struggled, found it a challenge. It kind of been on the uphill battle with my mental health and just trying to exist in in tech. It's very much a difficult thing to do. So I found my why, and I started Equity in Tech Group to do that. Our mission, f y 25, is to get a 1000 people from Africa or Jamaican heritage into tech. And I guess to support that, I've got lots of different roles. So being in sales for 28 years, I have built lots of partnerships, whether I'm a cofounder or non executive director or a brand ambassador.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:06:05]:

So I do that through either factional roles as a factional CRO. I do that either with companies like, Sidewave, who have got an incredible platform for, digital assets and web, web 2, web 3, etcetera, Or my my VIP and hospitality brand, where I can send you anywhere in the world to any event, VIP style. And all of these things pay for my pro bono stuff and equity in tech. Hopefully, next Sunday will get great. The way that will enable us to do even more and really change the status quo and and help even more peep more people in tech, which is kind of what I'm trying to do.

Rob Durant [00:06:44]:

Fantastic. Thank you for that. So let's start the conversation with a foundational question. What do you mean by allyship?

Cohan Leon Daley [00:06:56]:

Okay. So without allyship, I literally wouldn't be in the position that I'm in today. So allyship is kind of raising your hand and doing things it's kind of being uncomfortable being uncomfortable, if that makes sense. So being comfortable being uncomfortable. Often, in the workplace or even in life, we see things that we know instinctively are wrong or doesn't quite agree with us and we often don't say anything. Allyship is is stepping up for people that can't step up for themselves or aren't able to without any without any consequences to you or to them. And for me, in particular, allyship has been really, with through my career, I've had allies. So either someone in a a senior position that I've worked in or someone that saw something they didn't think was right or how I was treated.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:07:50]:

An allyship meant that I could use them as a as a confidant. I could use them to, to kinda chew the fat about how I felt. They would help me move roles or get other opportunities, without anyone knowing. And these people often aren't in HR or even your management. They're just people that see something that think, you know what? That's wrong. Like, I wanna help. I use allyship in different ways. I'm a ally for women in tech, for example.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:08:19]:

I'm an ally for, people from all under underrepresented groups. Not necessarily I don't speak for them, but I definitely will give them a platform or support them. So sometimes people get that mixed up. And I'll give you an example. I was working with because we know we we often in employees, the DEI person will be someone that's gay or someone that is is is not white, and they just put you in this group without any kind of understanding of what that means. So me and this gay chap with this group. And he was so passionate about supporting me. He was trying to make me celebrate Black History Month on the wrong day.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:08:55]:

So in the US, it's it's in April, March time in the UK. It's obviously in October. And he was so passionate to try to help me, but I was like, you know, dude, this isn't when I started buying it. That's the American month. But he got really upset, but that's where it's allyship went too far because he was really, you know, not understanding, you know, the the root cause of it and what he's trying to do, but he meant well. Does that make sense?

Bertrand Godillo [00:09:20]:

Yeah.

Rob Durant [00:09:21]:

Absolutely. So if I'm hearing you correctly, what I hear is an ally is somebody who is, supporting you.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:09:32]:

Yep.

Rob Durant [00:09:34]:

Maybe even, encouraging you, but they're typically not from the same group that represents

Cohan Leon Daley [00:09:43]:

you? Exactly that. Exactly that.

Rob Durant [00:09:45]:

Okay.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:09:46]:

Yeah. Yeah. That that's why it's so important to have allyship because if you're in a country where you're a minority or if you're in a group, you're the minority, Without allyship, you're pretty much on your own, and that can make, the office or work environments really tough because you're trying to you're already trying to go uphill anyway. And with that allyship, it's even harder because you're even more isolated, and you're even more unable to do, you know, what what you do best because you're inhibited to be yourself. That was goes nicely into into covering, which we talk about later on.

Rob Durant [00:10:22]:

So allyship sounds pretty good. It sounds like, you know, people for, a a a simplistic term and maybe not even the best term, but the one that comes to mind, people come into your defense, people supporting you.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:10:36]:

Yeah. I mean, it's it's not easy. Right? Because sometimes, you know, it's like almost going back to school. Right? Or uni. You get these these kind of cults of groups that run the office or everyone goes to lunch with this person. Everyone plays golf with this chap or this girl. You kinda get these hives. Now, if you're not in that group or hive, you might not get the promotion.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:10:56]:

You might not get the opportunities other people get. Now, imagine if you're in this environment and you're female or or you're you're black or you have a different religion to the main hive, you're even more of an outlier. So it's very difficult to to even get a chance to be in that. Now someone in that hive could recognize you and support you and bring you into conversations, not let people speak speak over you, could bring your CV into conversations around being promoted. It really changes your life. You know, my mentors and and allies through my career have literally changed my life in regards to the jobs I've got, the interviews I've had, the opportunities I've got within placements, and why I've been promoted so extensively is only because of the allies. And without them, I literally wouldn't be here today.

Rob Durant [00:11:44]:

So this episode is called why allyship is just the beginning. To me, that implies there's more.

Bertrand Godillo [00:11:52]:

I

Cohan Leon Daley [00:11:52]:

think there is because and sorry to talk to you, Rob, is that people are almost you know, for example, I I give you an example. In the Me Too campaign and everything was going on, when you see, for example, an actor like Ben Affleck, right, stood up and said, hey. I think this is wrong. You know? Let's let's look at this. And as soon as he did that, a lot of people shut him down because, I don't know, back in the day, he did something to a female shouted, and he got shut down really quick, which makes people inhibited to say anything because they're scared they're gonna do something wrong. We're so over PC now. You know? Can I say black? Is it colored? And I could go on about the plethora of things we can or can't or should or shouldn't say. People are confused.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:12:36]:

So if the majority group are confused, it's hard to become an ally because you don't know whether you're sticking the leg in the right place or not. So you have to be quite a confident normally, a senior person to be an ally because people don't wanna lose their job. People don't wanna lose their opportunities because they're speaking up for you. And that's kind of the hard truth of it. So it's just the beginning because we need more allies, not just c senior leaders, I mean, more allies across all worlds and across all different underrepresented groups.

Rob Durant [00:13:06]:

You said something I wanna pick up on. You said, we've become over PC. I'm going to come back to that, but I think Tim had something that he wanted to to ask.

Tim Hughes [00:13:18]:

Yeah. I was just trying to say that I was at a, an allyship event just a couple of weeks ago at, at Zoom, And, it was really interesting because there was one of the, people on the panel. She she was black, and she, you know, she was probably about my age. And she said that, you know, she was incredibly successful, and she said that every single step in her journey that got her to where she was today, she'd been supported by a white man.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:13:47]:

Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:13:48]:

And I and I think that quite often what happens is that that that gets lost in the discussion about, DEI because because we we what we think you know, we we we the conversations are a lot about positive discrimination and stuff like that. And I think that what what what white people forget is that, actually, we have a a job to do to enable to bring to to bring everybody up to our level in terms of the privilege that we've had in our lives.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:14:18]:

Yeah. I mean, Tim, that's a really it's it's a difficult conversation to have, and there is lots of variables around that and how comfortable someone is in their own skin and also how they've been raised and their education. A lot of it is based on ignorance and people being naive and but people that are cruel or, you know, that would want to hurt people, often it's just about people that understand. And that goes into, you know, putting your hand raised and then getting it burned, and you put your hand down again. And I don't think that, that that white people have a job or or they have to do anything. I think it's around any person from a minority group that I know, they want the chance because they're from an online sort of group. They just wanna be at the table. They just want the opportunity.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:14:58]:

So we don't want extra chances or handout. We just want the opportunity is the same as everybody else. And and that, you know, I from people from poor from poor white backgrounds could be underprivileged and not have chances that that wealthy people have, right, when it comes to schooling, when it comes to, getting a GP or or or being hired. This isn't necessarily just a race thing. So, you know, being an ally, you could be an ally even if, you know, if it's peer to peer, white to white, white. You see someone that is not being treated correctly or or bullied or not having the same opportunities, it's just stepping up and doing the right thing based on your conscience, regardless of if it affects you or not, which is hard to see because in in this climate, right, we see thousands of people being laid off, thousands of people that are unemployed. I was recently doing a DEI talk at an organization, and there were only 2, black employees that worked there. 1 of them, had very much a mental health disorder, and the other one felt really guilty because she felt like she couldn't support her because she didn't wanna get fired.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:16:07]:

So she's just she just didn't say anything. And she felt absolutely awful about it. But also, she's like, you know, I'm a single person. I've got my own mortgage. I also don't wanna not make my rent. So, you know, there's a plethora of reasons here. You know, people can't just assume, oh, you're a woman, you're gonna help a woman. Or because you're a guy, you're gonna help a guy.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:16:25]:

Or because you're black, you're black. Or if you're disabled, you're gonna help a disabled person. It often doesn't work like that, you know. So it is a complex subject. But hopefully, talking about openly where there's no stupid questions or answers, we're all gonna be coming from a good place. I'm hoping that we can help change that.

Tracy Borreson [00:16:46]:

Yeah. One of the things that's coming up for me, Cohan, is this concept of I I don't actually know what I wanna call it, but it's, like, the ability for an individual person to move forward through a a, quote, unquote failure. So maybe resilience is what I'm thinking.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:17:06]:

Residient is huge.

Tracy Borreson [00:17:07]:

Yeah. Because if I and I have I have I've totally done this. I will admit it. Right? I have shown up to in what I thought was allyship to learn that that was not allyship. And I think it's important to be able to learn those things, though, because if we are coming from this place of being uneducated and inexperienced in what it looks like to be an ally, then we're probably gonna make a mistake at some point in doing that. And there has to be that level of commitment to want to show up to do that so that you can move through it and be like, wow. I did not get it right in that scenario. And for 1, I'm super grateful for the people who have provided me with that feedback because now I can be a better ally.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:17:54]:

Yep.

Tracy Borreson [00:17:54]:

Because if I didn't get that feedback, I would continue to make the same mistake. But there's a, like, wow. I got that one really wrong, and I don't want to continue to get it wrong. So how how do I keep moving forward?

Cohan Leon Daley [00:18:09]:

I think one of the things that I've seen so I spoke to over 50 DEI leaders this year, and that one of them had budget. Often, they were returning for maternity or in HR roles, and they were given those roles without any direction at all. So when I spoke to them about me having a DEI framework, they were like, great. Please send it to me because I don't even know what that is. So that shows you, 1, whether leaders are really serious about it or whether it's just like a token gesture, which we find happening a lot. And also, in these groups, if you don't have someone from a different group in your group, how on earth are they gonna understand what you're going through every day? I if you have a women in tech group, sorry ladies, then you're gonna have a tougher guide in that group. Because they don't understand what you go through every day. They don't feel feel what you feel, see your emotion, hear your challenges.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:19:09]:

How can they help? Same as if it's a black group. Same with if it's a, LGBTQ plus group. You need someone to know that isn't like that. You need someone to know to hear your time just isn't like you. That's how you get allyship. You know, I go to talks with all groups, and I'm, like, shocked at, you know, their history, their challenges, because it's not mine. I don't know their history. I don't know their challenges.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:19:32]:

I don't know what they go through every day. You know? I was raised by women, so I know women to a point, but I'm not a woman. So, therefore, unless I'm an ally, I might set groups up, I might host, cohost, but the host, the leader has to be a woman because it can't be me standing there, 6 foot 4 guy. You're gonna be like, oh my god. Who is this man telling us about our feelings? It's not gonna work. I can be on the side. I can I can support, but at least be led by the people that you're actually trying to help? And that's one of the main points. You know? If you have a group or you have a DEI strategy, your tone of voice, your culture, and the feeling of of of of belonging comes from our innate unconscious bias to people that look and feel like us.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:20:21]:

So, you know, straight in the way, we know from the research from prison studies. Right? When you walk into a room, you naturally will go towards someone that looks and sounds like you. So even the fact that often when I go to a room or when you go to a room, if you're in tech, guess what? It's gonna be just you. And it's gonna be just me. So, actually, I just people understanding that and communicating that will help them understand the way we feel. Even just going to work every day or, you know, when I go onto the tube and I go into into Liverpool Street or I go to bank, I often would not see anyone that looks like me unless they are, a ticket guy or they're a cleaner or, they're working at a a stall. They're not a VP or an SVP or a founder like me. Right? It's just rare of an outlier.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:21:11]:

So these things all affect people's behavior and how they feel. And sometimes, seeing is believing. So how did a group led by someone that's made it, that's got through with an ally? They shout out about it. Let's talk about it. Let's celebrate it.

Bertrand Godillo [00:21:27]:

I can thank you thank you for, you know, just wanna say that I'm shocked since the beginning of that discussion because I I thought we were far, far further than than what you're describing. Yeah. And, therefore, I'm trying to understand how companies can actually encourage allyship. Yep. But from your perspective are actually the pitfalls that that that that actually make the situation almost, you know, not moving, from from from what you're describing?

Cohan Leon Daley [00:22:00]:

Yeah. It's a really good question. And I think it it goes back to people don't wanna be the 1st. People don't wanna do it wrong. People don't wanna make mistakes. And, unfortunately, that inhibits their their ability to make change. So if we think about the tone of voice of a company, and even I've done it. Right? When you're hiring, you think, okay.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:22:20]:

What do I need this role to look like? You think, okay. What do they sound like? What's their ability to do the job? What's their personality traits? Where are they from? And, unfortunately, if all the hiring mat or if all the hiring managers look like Rob, guess what? You're gonna hire a team that looks like Rob. So what needs to do is actually not how they speak, not what a football school they went to, so you could be that part of the the the the alumni and high fives that we went to the same school. They haven't gotta be educated the same way. Actually, we know from data that when you diversify your board or your or your employ employees, you actually make more money. You actually have more retention. So these stats don't lie. So why are we doing it? Right? It's because people often would employ put someone in position that don't know what they're doing.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:23:08]:

I e, I don't disrespect to the 50 people I spoke to that want DEI. They don't really know what DEI is. They're often just females. They go, oh, you're a woman, so you must know. They've had no training, so they so they've got no budget. So, actually, what are you gonna change? Because every application you have says, oh, we're a DEI organization. I call BS on that because you're not. You're just saying that because it publicly good to do it.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:23:33]:

Because when you look at your board and they're all white middle class men, and there's woman in HR that runs as a CMO or something like that, that's a token. That's a gesture. That's absolute rubbish. When you go below that, when you think about your job applications, what's the tone of it? Like, why do you have to go to a certain university? Why do you have to have English as your first language? When this is a even on this call, we're all from different places, we all understand each other. You know, in the UK, Bertrand, we laugh that often when there's a black person speaking on television, and if they're from the Caribbean like I am, there's subtitles up. And it's really frustrating for us. It's infuriating because you can understand me. And even if I spoke as I spoke at home with a Jamaican accent, you would still understand me and there's subtitles.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:24:24]:

It's archaic, old school BS. But until we have these conversations and we push through this, you know, it really isn't it really isn't isn't gonna change. But, hopefully, you know, younger people so I speak to younger black people, and they say they don't really have the same values that I have. They wear their hair in their natural way. They wear a certain dress code. They're like, wow. And they don't care. You know? They would actually be like, how dare you tell me how to dress? How dare you tell me how to speak? So they're coming through a new generation that hopefully is is is inhibited and gone through the pain that we all went through, hopefully, to open doors for them.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:25:01]:

So, hopefully, it will change, and it's about how you educate your children. Someone asked me recently, you know, why don't you see color? And it's because when I was growing up, it it still to this day, I have an aunt that's white. I have an uncle that's white. I have an aunt that's Indian. I have aunts from, you know, that's Welsh. My auntie lives in Welsh. I have cousins in Scotland. So we are so multi diverse culturally, racially as a family that I just love people because they're my family, because they respect me.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:25:33]:

And I take that to my colleagues and friends, not because I didn't see race until I went to school and was spat on or I was allowed on the bus, or I was called a racist term. I didn't know that until I was exposed to that when I left my home or left my family. So I often find that my my white friends, when they ask me questions and I try to educate them, they weren't raised like me. They were raised as race as a prominent thing. They weren't taught that actually everyone is the same. Everyone's equal. They had slurs for the local shop. They had slurs for their takeaway they got.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:26:08]:

And these slurs and these these indolence are hard to shake off when you're an adult because they've heard them their whole life. So it it's just it's a tough, tough environment. There's so much to do, man. So much to do, but, you know, talking about and asking those questions, right, is the start. It's the way we need to go.

Adam Gray [00:26:28]:

You you said about allyship earlier, and I I think that, one of the things that that if we look back to a prominent example of a lack of allyship would be Harvey Weinstein and what went on in Hollywood and how nobody stood up for the women that were abused by him.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:26:49]:

Yeah. And

Adam Gray [00:26:50]:

I think that that everybody can look at that and say, well, we don't want to go back to that place.

Bertrand Godillo [00:26:55]:

Yeah. And

Adam Gray [00:26:56]:

I I know that people who are not like me, white, middle aged, heterosexual, English male

Cohan Leon Daley [00:27:04]:

Right.

Adam Gray [00:27:04]:

Are, are much more likely to be sensitive to allyship through the need for having allyship. And, and, obviously, Dee and I departments have have grown up as a result of this. But I was shocked in the news quite recently to see that lots of organizations seem to be doing away with their Yeah. Diversity and inclusion departments. Yeah. And and, I mean, I purse so do you think this is a huge retrograde step, or do you think we have we have outgrown those now and we don't need them?

Cohan Leon Daley [00:27:44]:

No. I I don't think it's conceivable to outgrow something we haven't truly started yet. And also, get get get rid of a DEI department that you don't understand in the first place is probably a bit of a share because it's easier. Doing things easier in life is easier than doing things that are hard.

Bertrand Godillo [00:28:00]:

Absolutely.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:28:00]:

Now if you include the word belonging or inclusion, whatever you want to call it, it's not gonna go anywhere. You have to remember that from, a a minority person's perspective or from a black man's perspective, what happens to George Floyd, as horrific as it was, meant that 80% of DEI departments came from after George Floyd. So I'm 44. That instant isn't an instant to me. To me, it's my life. So being stopped by the police all the time as a child and as an adult or in my car or being harassed at times or people being fearful of what I look like is my life. It's not about George George Floyd in that day. Don't get me wrong.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:28:44]:

Seeing it was horrific, but to us, it's normal. So as much as shocking, that a few years ago, you're like, name 20 other, instances of that kind. It's just that one was so bad and maybe because of COVID at the time, it propelled the world. But so much so, it's a lot of it's fake. So one of these DEI departments that aren't real, yeah, they're changing them because they don't really understand what they're doing because they're having real conversations. And, also, sometimes it's just hard. Listen. I'm not gonna go back and say about what white people have done

Bertrand Godillo [00:29:21]:

or not done about people who have done or

Cohan Leon Daley [00:29:23]:

not not done. And there's so much confusion about about

Bertrand Godillo [00:29:24]:

racism and where it's where it stems from. Last night,

Cohan Leon Daley [00:29:24]:

I was speaking to one of my where it stems from. Last night, I was speaking to one of my friends I've known for 30 years, and he said to me, really, Coe? Why are you talking about race all the time? I'm like, okay. England football team. Let's look at the black players when they miss a penalty and the white players that miss and let's look at the headlines and the newspapers. And he stopped and he said, wow, okay, I get your point. Because when he's seeing it, it's so horrible, he suppresses it. And isn't it manifested to pain because he doesn't wanna acknowledge it because then he feels bad. So he said to me, as a white male, when I see this, I feel awful.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:30:04]:

Therefore, I don't want to talk about it. And when you talk about it, it makes me feel bad. So, you know, we need to get come away from feeling bad and feeling any guilt because every race can be bad and good. People are people. You know? There's good and bad in everyone. Let's move away from that and just try and make changes and acknowledge it in the first place. Because when you think about societal racism or systematic racism, what we're doing here today is so small because when you read the newspaper, I turn on the television, or I go to apply for a loan, or go to a bank, there are systematic and societal challenges I have that you won't. And you won't even see or feel that, and I don't expect you to understand it.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:30:48]:

But what you can do in your environment at work or in your peer group or friendship group, look around your group. How diverse is your group? Look around who you, you know, play the guitar with or music with. Look around your office and say, actually, am I being am I being, am I am I collaborate to come into my group? Do I hear their challenges? Do I understand them? How can I be an ally to you? And that's what I do. You know, there's groups that you wouldn't think I'd be associated with that I'm I'm part of because I wanna understand their challenges too. And often, you get lots of people in the groups that are from minority group. We have these these I'm the worst minority discussions,

Bertrand Godillo [00:31:32]:

which is which is

Cohan Leon Daley [00:31:34]:

it's hilarious because it's like, oh, no. Oh, this was worse for me. No. No one's worse. And everyone's truth, remember, is subjective. So my truth is mine. Yours is yours. And we're not lying.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:31:46]:

It's truth to us. So understand my truth. Don't try and live it. Don't try and under don't try and be it. Just hear it. And if you get an opportunity to what I'm doing right now, all of my mentees, the equity and tech group that I certify and train, people reach out and say, look, Coke, can you send me 5 CVs? Can you send me 10 10 CVs? And those CVs go into a pool, and they just looked at at the same as all the other CVs. And half of them have got jobs. 3 of them have been promoted.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:32:17]:

One of them is now a director. Just because someone reached out to me and said, carve a CV. Because these TVs don't get through. Because, you know, I'll give you an example. I was working with the director, and there wasn't enough rooms in the in the meeting room. So I was facing him, but his laptop was facing the other way. He was interviewing someone. I could hear the person, but I couldn't see them.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:32:40]:

When the interview ended, he said, oh, that person isn't gonna work. And I was like, wow. They sounded great. Why? He's like, I don't know. They said this just didn't sound right. I just I didn't feel feel feel comfortable. Well, that's really odd. I said, well, I understood them really clearly.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:32:55]:

And he said, well, you know, that's they just don't sound like us. I said, interestingly, I said, well, what does us mean? And he paused. He said, well, actually, okay. You didn't sound like sound like me. I said, well, just because I speak in a certain way, doesn't mean that you can then diminish who I am as or who my culture is. That chap was brilliant, and he basically had a bias because of how he spoke. And he didn't realize he had that bias. So if I wasn't sat there, that person wouldn't have got another chance.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:33:25]:

This happens a lot. Unconscious bias is really powerful. But if we can acknowledge it and not get in trouble or fired or called out for it, but then understand it, then we can move forward and we can change. But everyone has an unconscious bias. Our brain does that automatically because as a matter of information that we get, we have to make smart decisions. So we can't stop unconscious bias, but we can pivot

Bertrand Godillo [00:33:49]:

and

Cohan Leon Daley [00:33:49]:

be agile about what we think and then just do the right thing based on common sense. That make sense?

Adam Gray [00:33:57]:

Perfectly. Yeah.

Tim Hughes [00:33:58]:

Flow's question. Yes.

Rob Durant [00:34:02]:

Flo Librato, former guest of the show, asks, Cohan, what are your thoughts on ERGs balancing safe affinity versus being open to allies and education of allies?

Cohan Leon Daley [00:34:16]:

Wow. That's a great question. Yeah. I think listen. You have to have, an environment where you feel safe and a platform to be able to even do any of this stuff. But I think that, you know, I went to a women's Salesforce, a women in tech event once where they never have men invited. And when I attended it, it was almost like, like, a a male bashing event. And even some of the females that I brought with me felt uncomfortable.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:34:46]:

So I think there's a balance. Yes. There has to be an environment where you feel safe, and you feel like you can be open and secure and be free. But, also, you have to also have it open again for people not from that group. Otherwise, how are they gonna understand the challenges of what you go through and who you are? So I think anyone could be be negative and nothing I I don't think this comes from from hatred. I think it comes from misunderstanding. And I think that if you get all of 1 group together, whether it's the lads, whether it's the girls, whatever race you are, it gets clicky, and then you get a lot of BS in that group. There's someone in there that's gonna be like, hey, guys or girls or whoever you are, this isn't right.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:35:32]:

This is this is because otherwise, if you segregate yourself from everyone else, you're you're causing the same problem as everyone else is doing. Does that make sense?

Tracy Borreson [00:35:41]:

I mean, it makes sense to me based on some of my experiences because so, like, when I entered entrepreneurship, there's all of these communities for women entrepreneurs. Right? And all of them are only women. And, like, sure. It's kinda like a BNI thing. They're just all working together to give each other business, and that's one thing. But if we're actually going to forward the conversation of women in tech or women in leadership or things like like, we can't keep this in a silo. We have to open it up. And so I do think it's important to, yes, create that safety, but also when does safety become segregation?

Cohan Leon Daley [00:36:24]:

Exactly. And Exactly. That. I mean, so for me that's why, again, right, if you don't have allyship with someone you trust, then you're not gonna get in the room. Because if you're going to laugh or have judgement or not understand or have pity or sarcasm, all of these things are really hurtful for people that have felt something their whole life. You know, this isn't funny. So, you know, if you're gonna say you're an ally or you wanna support a group, you gotta be a 100% in. Because if you're not, you're gonna cause more harm than good.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:36:59]:

And that that's why I appreciate with some with some groups, they have their allies because they've tried to have someone in the or they've put somebody in the wrong place, in the wrong room. They haven't understood that it's gone wrong. It's made people feel don't feel uncomfortable, which is totally defeating the object.

Rob Durant [00:37:14]:

Picking up on the over PC, idea that we had touched on earlier in the show. About a half an hour before we came on the air, I had come across an article in my daily news feed, and I sent it to Coe. And it was Walmart pulls back on DEI. Could we see more companies adopting MEI? MEI stands for merit, excellence, and intelligence. And while on the surface, that sounds reasonable. Even as an ally, I'm picking up on where they're missing the point with that.

Bertrand Godillo [00:37:57]:

Well, I think it's perfect thing.

Tracy Borreson [00:37:58]:

Like, Cole's example is a perfect example of how that doesn't work because in that interview, that guy, like, co heard the merit and the intelligence, and the other guy didn't because of his unconscious bias. So

Cohan Leon Daley [00:38:11]:

Yeah. Well, also, if I was being really pes pet pessimistic, the IQ test actually is racist in the first place. So what are you measuring IQ on? And I could go on and on. Right? And listen. There is a lot around how you hire someone. So I speak to, VCs at the moment around the the the same old board that they get to restart these companies. And we have these factual steps. We have a factual CMO, factual CRO, and legal.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:38:44]:

We're all different races, different sexes, etcetera. But our diverse board could really propel them differently and give them a different opportunity. Right? They always use the same people all the time. So there is a lot around actually, going through hardship, going through trials and tribulations make you a good leader because you understand what it's like to go through something that is difficult or painful or confusing. It actually makes you better at dealing with stress. So these are all good things that we all go through that we could bring to the board or bring to the opportunities. But, you know, how you how you measure something is always the problem. And every test, because they were created at a time of ignorance or miss or miss misinformation or miseducation, every male or personality trace test or education test often uses language or words that are for white or Caucasian people and nobody else, especially men.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:39:44]:

Therefore, they will score higher than everyone else. So if the testing isn't fair, then you're using that as a test, again, you're not giving us the same opportunity. So that article is is the biggest BS without swearing, frustrated thing I've seen. But I understand that listen. I have friends that say, I don't wanna hire someone because they're a woman or because they're black or because they're not straight. And I'm like, no. That's not I'm not setting the point. These people don't want to be high because of their creed or their sexual orientation.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:40:20]:

They also wanna be in the given the chance. And when they get that chance, they don't wanna be treated differently because of that. That's the point. They're not being treated any differently from your other colleague that looks like you. That's the point here. Not given the opportunity because they've got different sexual orientation or because they're a woman. It's like, no. No.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:40:39]:

Look at every single organization in the world and look at what roles the women have. It's an absolute joke. Let her know look at the roles they have and look at how they're paid. That's why people don't publicize their earnings. That's why people don't publicize their their their DEI stats because guess what? They don't have any, or the women aren't being paid the same as men. You know, when when you think about in the in the UK, actually, in the actually, in the world, the highest suicide rate is between 25 to 35, and it's men, young men, let alone people of minorities, even higher in Black men. This is a horrific stat. And you've got to think about these mental health, environments are caused worse by everything we're discussing today because how you're treated by your peers, by how you're treated in your job, that you're treated by, you know, when you think about the stats around people of color when they go to the GP or they give birth, there's higher death rates with women of color than non than non women.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:41:43]:

Like, guys, you know, this stuff has to stop at some point because it's, you know, it's it's not helping anyone. And most people that I know do wanna make a difference. They do wanna make change. But we have to talk about it, like like today, and not be judged, not be scared. And, you know, this is a great opportunity. So, yeah, I thank all of you guys so much.

Tracy Borreson [00:42:04]:

So okay. I have a question, and I know that Joshua has a question, but it's gonna take us in a little different direction. Okay. So I have this theory that in order to make change, the people have to want to make change. And so we can talk about, like, corporate DEI efforts and things of that nature. But, like, if you even if you get a really well meaning leadership team wants to do these things and then the day to day values activities of the people don't match, then it doesn't matter that you have a corporate DEI initiative. It's not going to do anything. And I think this is one thing I also think if you really have a commitment to DEI or whatever you wanna call it, right, equity and inclusion, like, if you're what you're doing hasn't worked, don't stop.

Tracy Borreson [00:42:50]:

That doesn't work. Try something else

Cohan Leon Daley [00:42:53]:

Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:42:53]:

Like, to to do it. But I do think that this comes down to the people. And at the beginning of the conversation, we're talking about how it can feel really difficult to to stand up as an individual and be an ally. Yeah. I also think it kinda takes that person, that catalyst, to, like, show people that there is space and permission for that to manifest in whatever space. So whether it be a community group or, an organization. And so in all of the work that you've done, have you seen any kind of similarity in these, like, allyship catalysts that we can maybe, like, encourage peep like, if you're feeling this, like, say something or do something. Any advice for those people who are feeling called to do that to say, like, hey.

Tracy Borreson [00:43:46]:

You could be the spark in this plane.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:43:49]:

Yeah. Unfortunately, unless your leadership, you know, really is flying that flag, you don't really have a hope. You know, that's why all of my allies have been in secret or they said, you can't tell anyone. Or I've even signed a NDA before because my ally was so frightened. If anyone found out that he'd helped me, he would then lose his his his role in the business. So these things are not good, but at least they stood up and they helped me. Right? But unless either the board or the chairman of the board is an ally, it doesn't work. So, you know, me as a non executive director or the companies that I'm on, anyone that is affiliated with that company will see me and go, wow.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:44:38]:

I now can say something. Because they know there's someone on the board that doesn't look like everyone else, and they know that I I I speak openly about it. So, you know, we need people on the board from all different backgrounds in creative races. We need more women on the board. You know? Only, I think 24% of boards in the UK are diverse, and that percentage is is women. And pea people that are are white is I think it's even less than that. It's, like, 12. So with those with those stats, it's very hard to put your hand up and shout out.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:45:12]:

Right? Because likely gonna you're likely gonna be shut down. But, again, not because of of hatred or because of everyone is racist, because they're scared. They don't know what to do. They don't know how to they don't know where to start. I've been doing some really cool things around just getting a board in a room and we do a round table, and they I'm like, ask me anything. Ask me the most horrible thing you can think of. Ask me what? That's not a fun simple reset like that. You know? People don't know why why can't I say colored? Why is it black? All of these questions.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:45:45]:

But also, you know, don't ask to touch my hair. Don't ask what I eat every day. You know, you can't touch my hair. You can't ask what I eat, and you can't ask why I speak in a in a in a way I speak or they're shocked how I speak or that I've got a neuroscience degree. Like, I go on and on and on. These things are called microaggressions. Microaggressions are really frustrating for people from from minority background or from a marginalized group. Because we get it every single day, guys and girls.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:46:12]:

It's like, come on. But ask these questions in the open. I will shut them down, and we can move on. Because if I was offended or if I got upset, I wouldn't leave my house. So it's like we can all, you know, put our our big boys, you know, pants on and let's move forward. And I guess, you know, covering, I'm sure it will touch on at the end. But when you start to cover who you are or your identity or your name or your culture, this is when it becomes even more problematic for allyship because they don't see you.

Rob Durant [00:46:50]:

I I wanna come back to MEI briefly. Yeah. Ko, I think I heard you say, effectively, people don't want to be hired because they're black or because they're a woman. So if I'm reading between the lines, even those benefiting from DEI initiatives probably think MEI based on merit, excellence, and intelligence sounds pretty good. It sounds objective, not subjective. But what I think I also heard you say is the benchmarks that are supposedly objective were built upon, and subject to unconscious bias.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:47:38]:

Exactly.

Rob Durant [00:47:40]:

So is there a way to fix that? Is there a compromise where we can base it on merit? But the benchmarks we're using to evaluate merit Yeah.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:47:53]:

I mean, well are different. The fact that we're even discussing that someone should get a job on merit, isn't that hilarious? Isn't that why we all have jobs? Isn't that why we all got our positions based on merit? Right? No. Clearly not. This is what I'm saying. This is this is why it's laughable. And I'll give you some there's 2 campaigns going on right now. It's the my one of them is my name is not a a a a typo, and the other one is my Afro hair is my hair. My name is not a typo is if you're in a Microsoft or Google platform right now, you type in my name, and it come up as a spell check.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:48:29]:

Now most people from marginalized groups, all of our names come up as typos. But Rob doesn't. Okay? Tim doesn't. So ask yourself what that is. So if the program or the platform was built with bias, then it has biases in it. So, for example, one of my best friends is called, Nikki. She's she's a white female, very successful. She calls me Chan.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:48:54]:

She calls me Chan because when she hired me, she typed Cohan into word. It came up as c h a n, and Chan is stuck forever. And it's funny. Right? She calls me Chan to this day. It's funny. But when we look at the deeper meaning of that, actually, why is my name a typo? It shouldn't be. So there's a campaign right now around that. Now also our hair.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:49:15]:

So we've we we get told our hair isn't part of the the dress code or it's scruffy or it needs to be maintained. This is from school. I've been suspended from school because I wear my hair in my natural way. My children have been put into isolation because of our hair. There's a case going on right now in England where a child was expelled because they have dreadlocks in their hair. Now, these are things that are going on right now that are live and this is why it's such a difficult thing because if we can't even wear our hair in the natural way, we can't even type our name into the same platform as you do. No. Where do we start? I had a an AI brand come through to me recently, a fantastic brand, and they were looking at using AI to send send voice notes over LinkedIn using an algorithm.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:50:08]:

I thought, great. But what voice would you use, and also what names could it pronounce? And he was like, you know, we've tried it and tested it on loads of names. I was like, great. Type my name in. Guess what? It can't say it. Okay. Type in 20 other names. Guess what? It can't say it.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:50:26]:

Now, this chap was an entrepreneur. He wasn't racist. He wasn't a bad person. He was just ignorant to the fact that not everyone sounds and looks like him and has different types of names. If you wanna have a global platform and product, especially with AI, we all have to have our names. We all have to have AI. The the the the capability to it to look like and sound like us. Because I'm not gonna send a voice note out sounded like he speaks.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:50:53]:

I'm gonna sound like me. So, you know, with all of these issues and challenges, it's very tough.

Tracy Borreson [00:51:00]:

I just wanna share quickly that, Gloria Tabby, a friend of mine, did a great TED talk on hair discrimination, if anybody wants to dive into that.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:51:08]:

It's a whole another level of subjects. A whole another hour. Yeah. Which the rest of this COVID, like, what was the what what was the what was up with the hair? It's like, it's a big thing for us.

Rob Durant [00:51:20]:

We only have a few minutes left, but we have a great question from the audience. So Sure. If you could give us the high level answer, that would be great.

Bertrand Godillo [00:51:28]:

We

Rob Durant [00:51:28]:

have Joshua Williams asking, Cole, what is your 5 year vision? What does it entail?

Cohan Leon Daley [00:51:35]:

5 year vision in regards to what, Josh?

Rob Durant [00:51:40]:

Let's take it as an open invitation to to share our ship. Do you know? Yeah.

Tracy Borreson [00:51:45]:

Yeah. Where where is allyship going?

Cohan Leon Daley [00:51:48]:

I I think listen. I think we're not in it's not all, like, doom, gloom, and negative. The fact that, you know, I'm on this platform now. I'm speaking about it. The fact that how engaged you all are as much as you could be surprised, and that's a good thing. Because then you're gonna have more conversations. You're gonna have conversations with your peers, even with your friends that maybe are not white. You're gonna say to them, hey.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:52:10]:

You know, how do I pronounce your name? Am I pronouncing it wrong? How do you like to wear your hair? You know? Have you felt, you know, co mention these 5 things of their 50 g? Having these conversations with your peers in your neighborhood to your kids will help. Right? So I'm hoping that in 5 years, we don't have any same conversations. I'm hoping that, the the AI advances not just under the biases that it was created for, that is gives everyone access. And the, you know, the the thousand people that we would have get in 2nd f y 25, it's laughable. We have thousands of people from from Africa and the Caribbean in tech and earning what they they can earn, like, anywhere else in the country. Right? The the moment in the Caribbean, the average salary is around £12,000 a year. In in Africa, it's around 18,000. The same STEM post grad students in the UK earn £50,000.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:53:07]:

So that's a big gap, right, in in wage and earning and, the lifestyle you can lead. So we're hoping in 5 years that that's gone and everyone can work from anywhere, remotely and earn that kind of that kind of wage and have that kind of lifestyle that everyone should have.

Rob Durant [00:53:27]:

Kuwait, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you for being willing to bring us along. Awesome.

Bertrand Godillo [00:53:34]:

Thank

Cohan Leon Daley [00:53:34]:

you so much for having me on.

Rob Durant [00:53:36]:

Where can people, learn more? How can they get in touch with you?

Cohan Leon Daley [00:53:41]:

I will I'm gonna share a document, with you guys. You you could post on your page or send out just to add anything

Rob Durant [00:53:50]:

to the newsletter?

Cohan Leon Daley [00:53:52]:

Yeah. Some further reading, stuff like that. But you can send me an email at change@equityintechgroup.co.uk. I'll also place my number on there too. Equity Tech Group is on LinkedIn. OrthoType, Cohan Leon, c o h a n, n e o n, into LinkedIn. I'm the only Cohan Leon daily. So it's not hard to find me on LinkedIn even though there's 60,000,000 users.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:54:18]:

You'll find me pretty quickly. Connect with me. Happy to chat. Happy to to any speaking engagements. Any thought leadership. Also, you know, we have a DEIB, framework that is pretty good and robust, and we can help you with your tone of voice and really help really help you change and diversify the the business that you're in.

Rob Durant [00:54:36]:

Excellent. As alluded to, we now have a newsletter.

Cohan Leon Daley [00:54:42]:

Oh, awesome.

Rob Durant [00:54:45]:

Don't miss an episode. Get show highlights beyond the show insights from our panel and our guests and reminders of upcoming episodes. You can scan the QR code on screen or visit us at digitaldownload. Liveforward/newsletter. On behalf of the panelists, to our guest, Cohan, and to our audience, thank you all for being a very interactive part of today's episode, and we'll see you next time on the Digital Download. Bye

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