The digital age has transformed how we connect and share, yet topics like death and loss remain difficult to discuss. This week on The Digital Download, we welcome Natalia Pazzaglia, CEO and Founder of Legacy Compass, to explore how technology can ease the emotional and practical burdens associated with loss. Natalia's work focuses on providing innovative digital tools and support for individuals and families navigating end-of-life, to transform such a challenging time into a chance to gain emotional and financial resilience, and build connections with the ones we love.

We'll discuss key questions such as:

* How can digital platforms help families share essential information and precious memories?

* What role does technology play in making end-of-life support more accessible, especially in underserved areas?

* In what ways can storytelling foster healing and resilience in the face of loss?

* How can we build stronger connections and shared memories through digital tools?

* What are some practical tech solutions for dealing with the financial aspects of end-of-life?

Natalia’s experience in developing tech-for-good platforms and her expertise in storytelling for social impact make her uniquely positioned to offer valuable insights on this important topic. Viewers can expect to gain a deeper understanding of how technology can be leveraged to support individuals and communities through challenging times.

#TechForGood #DigitalLegacy #Resilience #EndofLifePlanning #SocialSelling #DigitalSelling #SocialEnablement #LinkedInLive #Podcast

This week's Host was:

• Bertrand Godillot, Founder and Managing Partner of Odysseus & Co, a proud DLA Ignite partner

This week's panelists were:

• Natalia Pazzaglia, CEO and Founder of Legacy Compass

• Adam Gray, Co-founder of a DLA Ignite

Transcript of The Digital Download 2025-05-30

Bertrand Godillot [00:00:09]:

Oops. Good afternoon, good morning, and good day wherever you may be joining us from. Welcome to another edition of the Digital Download, the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn Live. Now globally syndicated on TuneIn Radio through IBGR, the world's number one business talk, news, and strategy radio network. Today, we're exploring how technology can ease the emotional and practical burdens associated with loss. We have a special guest, Natalia Pazaglia, to help us with the discussion. Natalia is the CEO and founder of Legacy Compass. But before we bring Natalia on, let's go around the set, which is gonna be quite short today, and introduce Adam.

Adam Gray [00:00:58]:

Hi, everybody. I'm Adam. Adam. Great. I'm cofounder of DLA Ignite. I haven't been crying. I I suffer a little bit with hay fever, and it just seems to be particularly bad today. During that intro, I love the fact that we are the longest running weekly business talk show on LinkedIn live.

Adam Gray [00:01:16]:

I I love it, and I love the fact that we've had such an amazingly diverse group of guests that have come on to share their expertise and knowledge with people. Everything from from entrepreneurship and marketing through to worm farms. So, it's lovely when we we it's always a every day is a school day, isn't it? We're always learning things with this. So

Bertrand Godillot [00:01:40]:

Exactly. And that's really, really, great to have that on Fridays, a little bit of fresh air. Absolutely. After, after a very, tough week probably for most of us. Thank you, Chris. So as I said, this week on the digital download, we'll speak with Natalia Pantaglia. Natalia's experience in developing tech for good platforms and her expertise in storytelling for social impact make her unique in position to offer valuable insights on this important topic. Let's bring her, on.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:16]:

Natalia, good afternoon, and welcome.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:02:19]:

Thank you. Thank you.

Bertrand Godillot [00:02:20]:

Natalia, let's start by, having you tell us a little bit more about you, your background, and what led you where you are today.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:02:30]:

Yes. Thank you, Adam and Bertram, for the invite. I'm very happy to be here talking about such an important topic for me and for what we are navigating. So my background is actually in politics and international law. I started off in international corporation and I quite soon, moved to business development and social impact, which led me to acquire a number of different competencies in in fundraising, partnership development, and startup work. And, ultimately, there was a moment I mean, there were many moments in which my personal life intertwined with my professional life, and that led me to really ask myself what I wanted to do with my career. And I guess my creativity and innovation, which has always been, like, very important core values that I have, were kind of mixed with a personal situation of being the informal caregiver of my mom that that was diagnosed with cancer when I was 16. And so I literally accompanied her for a long journey that lasted about sixteen years, and that really made me see, what it means to deal with end of life from young age and as a young professional and in families.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:03:41]:

And that's how I really started thinking about, you know, like, the world of caregiving, the world of end of life. My mom was very strong and she really fought her battle, but ultimately, she died, four years ago. And once she did I was confronted not only with the emotional pain of losing somebody we love but also with the enormous amount of administrative and financial decision that you need to take in a very short times, many many times when you are not prepared and with the unfairness of such a process. And that was what led me to really ask myself, is this only me? Is this only me suffering so much for this?

Bertrand Godillot [00:04:19]:

Okay. Okay. Okay. Thanks for that, Natalia. So let's start with the foundational question. What role does technology play in making end of life support more accessible, especially in underserved areas?

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:04:39]:

I guess I always, like to say that technology can I mean, technology is a tool, so I see it as a medium, to really help us, as human beings, access a number of services and a number of resources that might not be directly available? So I'm just gonna give you my example. When my mom died, I was in a small village in Italy with COVID. So there was no support available in person and, all the health care system was completely understaffed. Unfortunately, looks like we might be in five, ten years with the aging population that we're seeing in Europe, So I couldn't absolutely find any sort of in person support. But not only, it comes down, and we've seen this in Legacy Compass with more than 200 interview that when you are faced with loss, you tend to be very not shy, but, like, you might be more introverted than normal. You might not actually want to meet people in person because you're not ready, because these are difficult topics, because, you know, sometimes just bringing yourself out of the house for two or three hours of, you know, traveling plus meeting people is a bit too much. Even in our busy days, it's too much. So I guess the beauty of technology is on one side, the fact that it makes accessible, many many different services, like, over a vast, you know, like, geographically.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:06:06]:

So anybody can actually be able to access a service whether they live in a tiny little town in Italy or in London or in The US. But I guess the other point is also that our technology allow us to come as we are and to decide whether we wanna show up or not. So turning on and off camera is sometimes one of those things that people extremely appreciate when they are distressed, and this allows them to be in a place where they feel safer than the possibility I mean, the the necessity of showing up as you are, and you might not want to be seen in that moment.

Adam Gray [00:06:45]:

So I guess that that one of whenever and and I've so I I lost my father eight years ago. I'm sorry. It's fine. I I I I find humor is a great way of dealing with things. So I say I lost my father, by which I mean he died, not he walked off in a supermarket and we couldn't find him. Because it it kinda lightens the load for me to to to to to add a bit of humor with these things. But, at that point, it was it was difficult because there was there was no clear path to understand who we were able to talk to to get, unbiased, help and guidance for the process that we need to go through. Because often, you know, if you are bereaved, it's maybe the first bereavement you're dealing with.

Adam Gray [00:07:43]:

So if you've dealt with 10 bereavements, you know what you need to do. If you're dealing with one bereavement, the first one, it's like, okay. Well, how do you how do you arrange a funeral? How do you arrange a burial? How do you sort out, the will or life insurance or whatever those things may be? And and I I guess the the part of the question is, how how do we how do we put that into a place where people can access it so they're aware of it? Because it's all it's all very well saying, well, there's help available, but only if you know where to go for that.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:08:16]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:08:17]:

Yeah. So so that that's the first thing. But but I guess the second thing also is if if I need emotional support through that period, how can I access that as an individual? Because, you know, I I think perhaps one of the challenges for people is that I I don't I don't wanna go

Bertrand Godillot [00:08:35]:

to a group where I

Adam Gray [00:08:37]:

hear everybody else that's sad and upset and and bereaved. I I wanna talk to somebody that that listens to what I have to say. So so how how do how do we reconcile those two things, and how do we how do we educate people about the root out of this?

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:08:51]:

Yeah. Thanks for should I answer?

Adam Gray [00:08:55]:

Please. Yeah.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:08:57]:

Yeah. And thanks for the question. I think it's where also, like, technology plays a role in the sense that, so what you said about, you know, where to find the information. I guess there's even another point which might even be a precondition, which is which information is necessary for you. Because maybe you don't need to know everything, and knowing everything will just overwhelm you in a moment in which you are already overwhelmed.

Bertrand Godillot [00:09:21]:

Yeah.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:09:22]:

So I guess there's a point which is if you've never been through that kind of thing as you said, because you might experience a loss only once, hopefully, you know, before you turn 50 or 60, then you have no idea what you're navigating. It's a little bit like building a house without knowing whether you need a wall, whether you need a window, whether you need the roof. Like, literally, you have no idea what you're doing.

Adam Gray [00:09:44]:

Yeah.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:09:44]:

So you might look for things actually are not relevant for you because, maybe there's something about your the decision that you the person that is died already made about wanting to be buried or cremated, and you have no idea where to look for that decision if you don't know that there is a will or that there are, like, other dispositions that can be made, for example. And, also, maybe you don't know that there is an insurance provider that can actually help you in x, y, and zed. So one precondition that actually technology can help us understand is profiling people. So, like, really understanding who we are talking with and which type of information they might need or they might not need. Because, for example, if you live in the same house, it is very common that you might already know many different things. But if you live abroad in another country, you're gonna have a lot of legal consequences just because of taxes, just because, like, of different names that needs to be changed if you happen to inherit properties. So it really are like, it's really a matter of also not just about, you know, like, where do I find information, but what information is relevant for me. Mhmm.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:10:52]:

Because the one thing you do wanna do is, like, add overwhelming in a moment in which you are already overwhelmed and you're processing emotional pain and administrative load and financial decision altogether.

Adam Gray [00:11:06]:

Yeah.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:11:06]:

But then I also think, you know, like, your second question, like, about, you know, like, the kind of support. Again, I think here, it's it's fun something that I found quite fascinating, which has to do with two different things. I think one side is that self reflection. Like, not everybody is aware of what he or she might need Because, again, we might not have been in a traumatic situation before, so we might not know that we need one to one therapy or we are absolutely unwilling to do that because we would rather be in a group of peers, because being in a group of peers will make us feel less alien and will make us feel more supported. But do you know that already? Many times you actually don't.

Adam Gray [00:11:53]:

No. Absolutely.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:11:55]:

So what we try to do is also, like, understand who we're talking with. And, you know, there are many different ways in which now, like, with AI and with technology, it is possible, like, to to gauge certain things. So, of course, there's no certainty. It's not like we cannot assess properly, but, I mean, properly in the sense of being 100% sure. But we can suggest things that will make us make people think about their response and their needs in ways in which they might not have considered. Because you would be surprised by the fact that some people want to talk with a professional, but some people are intimidated by talking with a professional, and they would rather talk with a peer.

Adam Gray [00:12:38]:

Yeah. I mean, that that that does make sense. And and it's interesting because as you kind of as you were talking then, you were you were mentioning certain certain things. It was triggering all sorts of further questions in in my mind. And and I think that one of the one of the challenges, and I know this from from my father, one of the challenges when you're arranging these things is that you you want to create, an event for the funeral. I'm thinking you want to create an event that you think reflects well on the person because their friends and your friends are gonna be there. But the wishes that they have and this wasn't the case with my father, but I think this will be the case with my mother who's quite old. She's kind of made she said, this is what I want, and I think this is what I want.

Adam Gray [00:13:36]:

I think that's a really bad idea. And, you know, part of this is about honoring them, but part of this is about recognizing that, actually, they're gone, so they don't care. So the the funeral and the the the party afterwards is for the benefit of the people that are still around. So it's like navigating that is a really difficult ethical thing, isn't it?

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:14:01]:

Yeah. I I could cite many, many talks that we had with funeral directors telling us that a lot of people ended up choosing the most expensive coffin because they had no instruction, and they felt very guilty in choosing something that was cheaper. So they ended up spending a lot of money potentially for no benefit Yeah. Just because, they didn't wanna deal with the shame or the guiltiness of having made, like, a cheap choice, on something so intimate and delicate that should be I mean, at the end of the day, you know, like, when we marry, we we spend months planning for a marriage.

Bertrand Godillot [00:14:45]:

Yeah.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:14:45]:

And we spend, like, not even a day, like, planning for our end, which again is, as you said, you know, is about also celebrating, you know, the person. So more and more, for example, there are, people that do their funeral in life, as a way of telling people this is who I am, and this is how I would like to be remembered. Because I guess it's true what you said. Like, it is true. Like, all rituals, like, for centuries were done not for the person that was gone, but for the person left behind Yeah. And to be like a a kick starting point for creating a community of support around them. But I guess what you said, I think it goes into really some personal questions about can you deal with, awareness slash emotional load of making your own choices, against the choices of somebody with whom potentially you are not on the same page. Like, can you can you because I think and here's where I think it's very important what you said because you will be surprised, like, to see how many people have been regretting decision that they've taken in a very short amount of time.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:15:59]:

Because the truth is, for example, I come from a Catholic country, so funerals happens in two days, like, within forty eight hours. And in those forty eight hours, you have to take an amount of decision that we have quantified in more than fifty.

Bertrand Godillot [00:16:13]:

Mhmm. And

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:16:13]:

many of those decision are decision you're gonna go back and back and back in your mind in the following months, if not years. So you do wanna be at peace with them because they are gonna impact, like, how you perceive yourself in a very crucial moment of your identity.

Bertrand Godillot [00:16:33]:

Is there is there a way oh, sorry, Adam. Go ahead.

Adam Gray [00:16:36]:

No. I I I was gonna say that that that's I I guess, that that's that's I haven't thought about that, the fact that, you know, you go back and you revisit that event many times. And and, you know, you if you've done something that, perhaps you haven't thought through properly, you could have regrets coming up. But but interesting that you said the the the funeral, so about doing it when you're alive. And it happened to a friend of my wife's. She was diagnosed and given, maybe eighteen months to live. So she arranged her funeral. And it was it was amazing because she was an amazing woman, and nobody really knew what she'd done.

Adam Gray [00:17:24]:

You know? She was she was in her eighties, I think. And, you know, when she was a young woman, she she left school, and then she went and traveled around the world. And she, you know, she had an affair with the ship's captain and was you know, and it's like all of this stuff where you just go, oh my god. That's amazing. But she was there. So she got up and she told her story. And, and everybody that knew her got to see her in a new light. And and she kind of quite flippantly said, well, if I'm gonna have a big party, I wanna make sure I'm at my party rather than not at my party, which I thought was a really low and I've never heard this before.

Adam Gray [00:18:01]:

I thought that was a really lovely idea. But that supposes that you can see the end coming, doesn't it?

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:18:09]:

Yeah. Which a lot of people don't want to.

Adam Gray [00:18:12]:

Well, I mean, with with my father, he, he was in his early eighties, and he fell and broke his hip, and he went into hospital for an emergency hip replacement. And when you're elderly and you have that operation, most people don't come out of hospital. So for two weeks, he was up and down and up and down and up and down, and then he died. So so there was no opportunity to create that environment for him. But but I guess that that as always, you know, it it's it's a case that it's the planning and the execution of these things is left for the people that are left behind, isn't it? And and even if if you know you're gonna be, you know, passing away in six months' time, the fact that you know you're passing away probably means that you're neither in the headspace nor physically able to actually make a lot of these these decisions yourself.

Bertrand Godillot [00:19:04]:

Yeah. Well, hopefully, well, I was just reflecting on on what was what was said so far, but hope hopefully, and that will come for me as well. How how do you trigger the discussion with with the ones that are gonna, you know, are gonna leave, to, to,

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:19:29]:

to

Bertrand Godillot [00:19:29]:

have that discussion and get prepared, basically, if we can get prepared because I think we can't. But, at least, at the discussion.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:19:38]:

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for the question. It's it's something we are breaking our head on. I mean so the first thing I wanna say is that I agree with Adam in the sense that the percentage of people that come to us that are the one that are gonna die is minimal. So the truth is that the person that will, find, the strength, the willingness, to do the process and to prepare time to be the caregivers. So the time to be when I say caregiver, I don't necessarily think about somebody that will become a nurse. I'm just thinking about informal caregiving

Bertrand Godillot [00:20:14]:

Yeah.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:20:15]:

Which many, many times is what we all end up doing when our parents are aging. So means, you know, taking more care of them, going visit them more often, sometimes accompanying them to medical checkups, etcetera. So I don't necessarily think about somebody who becomes a nurse who's twenty four seven with them. And and so what happened is that, what what we would like is that that conversation can at least start within yourself because, we have no control about how the other person will react. So for example, my mom, she was diagnosed with cancer, and she had cancer for sixteen years. She never talked about death. She got to talk about death, I think, two days before dying. And that was kind of heartbreaking for me because I would have loved to talk with her about these things, but she absolutely didn't want to.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:21:09]:

So I had to respect that. Right? And I went into therapy to understand how to respect that and, you know, there were a lot of consequences for me as well to have that big denial, while seeing certain things in terms of, you know, as you as Adam said, physical deterioration, etcetera. So I think what you've seen is that unfortunately, as human being, we cannot control how other people are gonna behave. So we can't force somebody who was diagnosed or somebody who's gonna die to actually talk about these things. But what you can do is you can start your own conversation with yourself about how you wanna show up. You know? Do do I feel I'm gonna be somebody that will regret not to have asked my mom about her childhood? Do I feel like somebody that will have financial problems if I end up having to pay x amount of taxes? Can I somehow understand what's the range of taxes and I end up paying? Can I prepare? So what we see is that, what we wanna do is to we want to bring some clarity, and we wanna bring some we wanna bring some peace of mind. And also, we will be really want to use this time, which is a precious time to really make people ask themselves, okay, If this person I love is gonna die, what are the thing I would potentially regret? Because maybe it's not asking them about the bank accounts. You know? At the end, you'd sort that out.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:22:38]:

Maybe it's about asking them, okay. How was the love between you and my dad? You know? Like, what are the thing you would like to tell me that one day I can tell to my grandchildren or to, you know, this kind of things that you're never gonna have a chance to go back and ask, basically. Or as Adam said, maybe nobody would know about the story of the love affair on on the ship, you know, like, in these are the kind of thing that's in a word in which seems to be all about money. What I can tell you is that people are not about money. Like, when it comes to big thing, like, it's actually very emotional.

Adam Gray [00:23:10]:

So so how so how do you move the conversation to that place? Because the conversation about money is a relatively easy one, you know, because, certainly, my parents, they were not rich, but they they wanted to make sure that that they left a legacy for for children. And so so that and power of attorney and that are quite easy things to arrange because they're very factual. But but stuff like, that you said about, you know, tell me about the love between you and my father, Isn't there a risk that that makes it sound like you're expecting them to be dead this time tomorrow?

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:23:59]:

So I was smiling because I I think when we navigate loss is like entering into the full human experience and entering into like one of the biggest fear. And I think in front of fear, we're just very naked so we can see all our colors in a way. So I'm Italian and I can tell you that, so we have used cards like this ones to start and see how people would react. So when, you know, Bertrand was asking me how do you start the conversation, we have created cards that people could use to ask questions like, have you made a will? Where is it? Or do you have any family members that you miss? So the cards are of two different colors, and this is just an MVP, minimum viable product that we we were testing. So the colors are emotional purple, practical yellow. Because we have seen that people have two different coping strategies. Some people need to go to emotion first and get reassured, and then they go into the practicalities. And some people will never go into the emotions, as you said, because talking about bank accounts is easier.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:25:06]:

I can tell you that in Italy, these type of cards are just over. The people don't get to talk about money. And I suppose France might be similar. Like, we are quite okay in talking about love, in talking about childhood. But if somebody was to ask about money, it would be like, what? Like, even even for, like, in a relationship between, like, son and father, in many cases, it's considered to be, like, an overstepping because you are asking somebody, like, more senior than you to share some very private information. So, for example, there are it depends on the culture. So in The UK, it's the opposite. As you said, there's I think, like, in our experience, like, the way which loss and end of life is navigated is a little bit more about risk management.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:25:55]:

So you wanna be prepared. You wanna get to know that your loved ones are, you know, financially okay. They're gonna they're gonna find the documents, etcetera. But for example, in Italy, like, this kind of approach is completely completely,

Bertrand Godillot [00:26:13]:

I guess Irrelevant, irrespective.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:26:16]:

Irrelevant. Yes. Because you don't get there. Like, there's, like it's it's just, like, too much of a taboo, and it's not perceived as, as something that you do need to do because you're gonna lose a lot of money if not.

Bertrand Godillot [00:26:32]:

I was so so so back on on technology, because I I was just thinking, you know, when you you we we discuss about, you know, our memories, and potentially our stories we wanna share, a lot of that is actually on digital media right now. The more we're gonna move forward, the more it's gonna be the case. So any any any best practice in this area?

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:27:02]:

I guess it boils down to the type of personality you have and how much you like to share. Of course, there's there are many, many talks about digital legacy, about what what it means, you know, to to choose somebody that will take over your social media accounts. If you're not there anymore, some platform like Meta, like, do ask you for contacts that you want to make, a replacement for you in case. I do think that how we show up in the world, when I say the word, that also mean the digital world, is a little bit of a reflection on who we are. So some people will like to have their own private stories, showcased online or showed online. Other people want. So I guess, again, this is like a very individual choice. Definitely, I definitely as a as in, a good practice, a good practice is definitely to to do put down that contact that you would like to allow or to be able to access your social media if anything's happened.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:28:14]:

Because otherwise, this is gonna be blocked. So

Bertrand Godillot [00:28:18]:

Yeah. I I was also thinking about, you know, bridging the gap between the, the the the generations, Because I guess, you know, a lot of that a a lot of these memories, you know, if I take myself, you know, I'd I've not printed a a picture for a long very, very long time. And I also do have plenty of videos. So I was just thinking, you know, how do you get that organized? That's, that's probably a a very, light discussion compared to the ones we had so far.

Adam Gray [00:28:57]:

But it I think I think an interesting question here is that, we we live in a very digital world. And, whilst you are alive, you obviously have certain boundaries that you operate within. So I don't talk about these things. I don't show these elements of my life. But we spend a huge amount of time coaching people on being being effective digitally. And one of the the things that I see time and time again is that people are often scared to show themselves. And the reason they're scared to show themselves is because I think all every one of us has an underlying belief that actually we're not a good person. So I don't wanna show myself because, actually, you'll see that I'm not a good person or whatever the the the fear is that you that you have.

Adam Gray [00:29:55]:

And I think that, when when that fear is removed because they're dead, maybe maybe we should encourage families to say, you know, this person didn't share how wonderful they were to the world as a whole, when they were alive. But maybe now then, they they have nothing to be scared of anymore. Maybe they should. Because I I I often think that, you know, we're all kind of programmed by our upbringing and our experiences. And if you're an elderly person, you have no experience of promoting yourself necessarily. You have no experience of sharing these things, either because you just haven't done it or because you believe that you and I think this is the important one. You believe that you have nothing to say that the world needs to hear. And often oh, people do.

Adam Gray [00:30:45]:

Often, they do have something to say, and they can be incredibly inspirational. And they're almost like by not sharing this stuff, they're they're robbing the world of the chance to hear how great they were.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:30:58]:

Yeah. I mean, I I teach vulnerability and authenticity, so, like, I I'm with you. I do think that this is one of the big lesson that we are like, Legacy Compass has a mission, and the mission is to transform loss into a tool for better lives and more compassionate companies. So definitely, I think to understand that we are all gonna die. That's the truth. But also we are all masters. Right? We're all masters. There are parts of us that are masters.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:31:28]:

And when you got to see that and when you get to see, you know, like, also the inevitability of being good and bad, which we all are, I guess it frees up a lot of parts of you that were not allowed to be before.

Bertrand Godillot [00:31:43]:

And

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:31:43]:

so one thing that we see happening over and over and over is that after a big loss, people make some very important life choices

Bertrand Godillot [00:31:51]:

Yeah.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:31:51]:

That they've been postponing for years because they were too afraid to listen to themselves first and to follow their desires. So sadly, when you see that, you know, we are all gonna die, then it's like, okay. Maybe this career change is time that I do it. Because at the end of the day, you know, I'm not gonna bring x amount of money to the to the farm, and I I better live, like, a more a happier life, or maybe I better spend more time with my friend or my family. So I do believe, and we have seen it happening, that, for example, one thing that loss brings to life is more authenticity in this being also allowing yourself to be the person you want to be even with or maybe because of also your weaknesses because you are fine to accept that finally.

Adam Gray [00:32:43]:

Yeah. And and do you find that that, that this is quite normal for people to have, like, an epiphany when they when when they go through this loss? They're they're better able to, and and I don't mean this to be negative, but they're better they're better able to see the futility of life. You know? At the end of the day, we are born, we live, we die. Some of us live a long time, some of us don't. And at the end of it, actually, very rarely do we get the opportunity to make a real difference. You know? Some people do, but very, very few people do. So, actually, maybe living, maybe seeing that that you should be, as you said, living for yourself. Did so do do you find that this this has this triggering effect on people?

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:33:32]:

If you were to ask me this question, I think a year ago, I would have said yes. I think we further use a research and really like also being into into some more, I guess, deep, understanding and deep listening to the spirits, I'd say it depends on the level of self awareness and self reflection because, again, like, loss is a life changing event, and it goes back whether you want to embrace that or not. Some people will just pass through the practicalities, close the, you know, the drawer and move on. Moving on means that as it often happens in therapy and, like, with psychological research, when they get to lose something else, whether it's a job, a relationship, or another person, they will not only have to grieve that loss, but also the previous one that they have not grieved. But, it really depends on whether you want to, you know, allow yourself to see what's happening. So if you do, there's, you know, these parts which is very scary, which is grief and sadness is things that we don't wanna feel. But unfortunately or fortunately, many, many times when we do go into things we don't wanna see, we actually also understand what we really wanna do. And that's where the epiphany happens, which is like, okay.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:34:58]:

I can survive this. Like, if I go there, I can actually survive and heal. And in this healing, I will actually understand what I truly want to do, and I would find somehow the courage or the strength to do it better. So yeah. I guess in my case, for example, I lost my dad when I was 10. So I think that losing somebody at such a young age definitely made me into a different person. I am very, very sure it would be completely different if I hadn't had that.

Adam Gray [00:35:32]:

Yeah. I I think I think it's, it's it's interesting, isn't it? Because a lot of people, until they are they they face these challenges, they really have no idea how they so before, before my my dad died, I had never really faced bereavement. I'd lost a friend who was killed when a when a a ship he was on sank. You know? And I was in my twenties when that happened. And I lost my grandfather, but I didn't really know him that well. We didn't see them that often. So I lost my grandfather maybe when I was 10, and that's it. So nobody that's really, really close to me had I been through this until my father.

Adam Gray [00:36:15]:

And, yeah. And and I think that that it's very it's very easy to to to think how this may or may not affect you. And then when you face it, it may affect you in a very different way.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:36:32]:

Yeah. Very much. Yeah.

Bertrand Godillot [00:36:35]:

We we have a comment from the audience, Adam. I'll let you, go through this. Yeah. Leon.

Adam Gray [00:36:42]:

Yeah. So says, on the flip side, there are many who think that they have something to share and they shouldn't. However, more directly, to your point, how many times have you heard somebody say, ah, the deceased would have loved to have heard those lovely things people are saying about them? And, yeah, and I think that that's that's comes back again to that kind of have the funeral while you're still alive if you get the opportunity because you get to see all of these people how much they really love you and how much you matter to them

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:37:10]:

and Yeah.

Adam Gray [00:37:11]:

See all the lives that you have affected. Because let's be honest, it doesn't matter whether you are speaking to millions from from the stage or whether you've got a very close group of friends who you work with in in the factory. You you are gonna have a major impact on on people's lives somewhere. Yeah. And hearing that, can can be very rewarding and show you that you're on the right path potentially, I suppose.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:37:38]:

And also give you strength. Yeah. But it can be very lonely, like, being diagnosed or, you know, being, like, in a moment of pain. And as you said, you know, unfortunately, like, most of the cases, if you do have a situation in which you know you're gonna die, it's a very lonely place to be. So, actually, knowing that there are lots of people that are cheering for you and that have really, you know, enjoyed your presence and that have been changed sometimes by you. Like, it's amazing. And I think I have the same experience with my mom when she died. I received a number of messages that also showed me parts of her that I had no idea about.

Adam Gray [00:38:20]:

Yeah. And and I I but I do think that, there's and and you said about in Italian culture, you would never talk to people about money, for example, because that's a that's a taboo. But I think there'd be lots of other things that you wouldn't talk about because it's either likely to be, an uncomfortable conversation or you feel that you're prying or you fear that they might feel that you're prying into their lives. But, but knowing those things, you know, you can I can ask you while you're alive? I can't ask you when you're not. So, I mean, how how what advice would you give to people, you know, when when they're surrounded by people that they love? What advice would you give them about how they can steer the conversation to be, fact finding about these people? Because a lot of times, people and I I see this in my day to day life with the people that I coach. Very few people realize just how wonderful they are. Mhmm. You know? It doesn't mean they're perfect, but many, many people have incredible strengths and are incredibly great individuals, and they have no idea.

Adam Gray [00:39:35]:

They have no idea how wonderful they are. And Yeah. And hearing this about people, you know, particularly if it's someone that matters to you, would be wonderful, wouldn't it?

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:39:46]:

Yeah. So, well, it's a it's a tough one. It's a tough question. So I think first, I guess, it's a little bit like who you're talking to. Right? So I think it's a little bit like having first an understanding on of how far you can go. Because one thing you don't wanna do, I think, is scaring people off, especially if this person is somebody you love. I do think that finding the right moment is key. So, having this kind of conversation in a moment in which your boss relaxed or, you know, you are actually doing something together can be a very good thing.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:40:31]:

So when I say doing something together, we have seen that, for example, shifting the attention to something else is actually that something that facilitates more difficult conversation. So say, take your mom for a walk or take her to a cooking class and then, you know, like, softly start asking her about, mom, have you learned anything about money in your life? Is there any advice, you know, that you would like to pass on? Because and also one thing that we see being quite useful is asking advice. So for example, make them feel important in saying, I have this problem. This is a financial problem, and I'm sharing it with you. And what often happen is that when we share first, then also the other person open up. So I'm not saying that we should say, hey. I have this bank account, and there's x y and zed in the bank account, but just making them making it about a sharing moment rather than an interrogation or, you know, like something in which you want to extract facts or information, but more like a chance to connect. Say, this is my experience.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:41:41]:

I would like to understand. A, if you have any advice, which turns out a lot of older people actually want to give Yeah. Yeah. As a way of caring, and or what's your take? You know, like, what's your experience with that? And you'll see that when you open up, a lot of the time also the other person does. But asking the question directly is sometimes very scary to to hear. So definitely the right, like, understanding who you're talking to and which are the boundaries, like, I knew I would never get to understand about my mom's bank account. She never ever shared anything about that. So it was really difficult that she would do in such a moment.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:42:24]:

But the second point is, okay, how can I make, you know, like, this situation being comfortable? Maybe this person love to walk, or they love to book, or you can get them to a holiday. So it's also about, you know, finding the right moment in which we allow ourselves to open up, and that's really important. And then, you know, like, do it first. So share first, and then they will many times.

Adam Gray [00:42:47]:

No. That's that's great advice. We've we've got a couple of great

Bertrand Godillot [00:42:51]:

Yeah. We will.

Adam Gray [00:42:52]:

I mean, so this is a fantastic quote. The root of most fear is what other people will think of us. Absolutely. And and, you know, this this is terrifying for most people, and helping to break down this barrier, hopefully, when people are still alive is is great. But but his next comment, honoring legacy is better than crying. Abs absolutely. Because, you know, I I think that one of the things that, that certainly, that I learned from my my father's funeral was, you know, clearly, I cried. Lots of people cried.

Adam Gray [00:43:25]:

He was a great guy, and everybody loved him. But hearing them hearing people talk about what he meant to them and how much they loved him was was a really a really happy experience because you you only ever judge your relationship with somebody, don't you? And you you don't know how other people feel about them. And hearing that, having that put out there so that you could realize that that this interaction was not a unique one, that everybody felt this way was was incredibly comforting to me.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:43:56]:

So I might just slightly disagree on this, because I think that there's no right or wrong way to grieve, and there's no right or wrong way to honor. Like, it's often sad, you know, you know, like, that that the pain of losing somebody is also, you know, like, a a good measure of how much you love them. So I wouldn't necessarily say that somebody that is gonna cry, you know, for a full year and being in pain for a full year should feel wrong because they're doing that. Because I think it's their way to cope. You know? Like, is there a way to, feel that love and that loss? So I think that, it depends, like, on the person you are and how you process emotions. And for some people, it's gonna be easier to straight away look at the positive than just, like, use the positive to, to bring you forward. But other people need to be, like and I'm definitely one of them. Like, my first few months after my mom died, I think I don't know how many kilos I lost, and I was a completely different person.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:44:56]:

But it was necessary because I had to be in that pain, and it was what I needed to do in order to then move on. So I'd say it really depends. Like, some people will need to cry also for a long time. I mean, normally, it's like as in in therapy or in psychology, like, the first year is considered to be a year in which you are very likely to be slightly depressed. So it's a full year. So it does take time. But, you know, like, it's, again, like, losing somebody is a very individual experience. So it triggers so many coping mechanism that I wouldn't be able to necessarily say what's right and wrong, but more is about, okay, can you try to understand what you need enough to allow yourself to do that for yourself?

Adam Gray [00:45:45]:

And and I guess also, it potentially depends, on how you lose that person. You know, a sudden death, as opposed to to a death where you have some warning is a very different experience.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:45:59]:

Absolutely.

Adam Gray [00:46:00]:

And and, and, actually, I think that that when so when and, again, you know, my only reference point is my father. But he went into hospital, and it's like, this is a straightforward operation. And after a couple of days, we thought he might not come out. And then he seemed to get a lot better. And then a few days later, it looked like he might not come out again. And then he got a lot better, and then he got a lot worse, and then he died. So during that two weeks, I had the opportunity to prepare for the fact that maybe he wasn't going to come out. And, obviously, you know, somebody being killed in a car accident or something where they leave the house and you perhaps you didn't part with, you know, in the in the happiest of terms because you'd had an argument or whatever.

Adam Gray [00:46:43]:

I cannot begin to imagine what that must be like for people.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:46:48]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Again, there's a very when I said anticipatory grief, like, is that actually when you do have, like, a terminal illness diagnosis, it is a time in which the people around you, if they want to engage with that news fully, because I you know, like, it's it is like an unconscious choice whether you want to accept that or not, and it's totally fine also not to accept it. But if you do accept it, then it's a time that is for you to prepare for grieving. And it's a time in which you actually do grieve while adding the person still alive, which, of course, add a layer of complexity, but also allows you to actually really spend time with that person, you know, like, cherish that person until she is she or he is alive.

Adam Gray [00:47:38]:

So I guess, you know, we're we're we're getting towards the end of the show now. So so what what resources are available to people? What can they do when they find themselves in this situation? What would you consider would be a good starting point for them to begin this journey?

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:47:58]:

Yeah. Well, we are restructuring our, platform at the moment. So soon there would be, like, a new version online in which we do start to ask some questions. I guess the first, the first thing is really trying to understand what are the things you should be thinking about if if you want, you know, to to engage in this journey. So, you know, like, the 10 most important thing that you wanna think about, both on a practical and emotional level in case you wanna prepare, And that's one side. Another side that you've seen very important is also to connect with people because, as I said, you know, grief, it's a personal journey. It can be a very lonely journey. And we have seen that having a community or peers that can support you will give you the strength and the energy to keep going in this journey because, like, fortunately or unfortunately, this, as we all know, triggers also, like, negative feelings and negative thoughts that in our society, we are not really used to process.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:49:03]:

We tend to avoid them completely altogether. So, you know, even to ask somebody to start this journey alone is quite of a big ask. So we have seen that, like, the combination of, okay, these are the thing you might want to think about, but also, okay, here are people that are, you know, similar to you in a similar situation. They want to do this as much as you do. Maybe that's comforting. And then slowly, you know, like, accessing professionals or services that can help you in the journey as well. And that's what we do, yeah, with Legacy Compass.

Adam Gray [00:49:41]:

K. Fantastic.

Bertrand Godillot [00:49:45]:

Alright. Well, this has been great, Natalia.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:49:50]:

Thank you.

Bertrand Godillot [00:49:51]:

Where, where where can we learn more? Where can we find you?

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:49:55]:

Yeah. So you can find me in the website, which is legacycompass.net. And, on LinkedIn, Natalia Papaglia. And, yeah, I'd say those two are the best channels to understand what we do and where we're at. And, yeah, we are gonna be soon live with online events. As I said, you know, we are redesigning our platform. So, yeah, I guess, stay tuned.

Bertrand Godillot [00:50:25]:

Okay. So we look forward to, to see that new, that new that new platform. Okay. Excellent. Well, we now have a newsletter, as everybody knows. So well, at least should know. Don't miss an episode. Get the, the show highlights and the the Beyond the Show insights and reminders of upcoming episodes.

Bertrand Godillot [00:50:50]:

You may flash the QR code on screen. Here it here it is. Yes. Sorry, Natalia. For some reason, it's right in front of you.

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:51:01]:

That's okay.

Bertrand Godillot [00:51:01]:

Or, or visit us at digitaldownload.live/newsletter. Natalia, thank you so much

Natalia Pazzaglia [00:51:10]:

Thank you.

Bertrand Godillot [00:51:10]:

For joining us today. And, Adam, thank you as well for, for being with us, and see you next time. Thank you very much.

Adam Gray [00:51:18]:

You. Bye bye.

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